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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 03:46PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVefKshX8jc

"What do I believe in, now that I've left Mormonism?
Find out in this video.
Did anyone else experience these crazy emotions I describe in this video? When you're a Mormon, they tell you that outsiders can never find happiness, similar to fear/isolation methods used in other cults to keep you from leaving.
So when you start asking those existential questions that are part of our normal human experience, others might think it's because you've gone into a dark hole. But in this video, I explain why it's all part of the transformation that happens on the other side."
Bethany Kay

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Posted by: htj ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 04:47PM

First - Congratulations on leaving the wicked ways of the cult behind.

I can't remember if it was Socrates or Confucius that said something to the effect of you're only truly educated once you realize how much you don't know. But let that encourage you to forever explore and never be satisfied and especially so with someone else's answers that they will merrily share for 10% of your income and conversion to their lifestyle.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 04:57PM

Lot's Wife would know. She's a "mother" who knows.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 05:11PM

Lot's Wife is a "mother who believes" that quotation is frequently attributed to Socrates--although Laozi and also the Vedic literature say similar things. There is additionally a comparable statement in 1 Corinthians.

My thinking, for what it's worth, is closer to that of the world-renowned philosopher, Donald H. Rumsfeld. I am thus confident about things I know I know, cautious about things I know I don't know, but terrified of what I do not know I do not know. As Rumsfeld's career demonstrated, it is the unknown unknowns that will really get you.

But then what do I know?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 05:53PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But then what do I know?

It was more of a "who you know" kinda thing.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 06:13PM

My connections are nowhere near as robust as yours, EB, you scion of Zion!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2020 06:13PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: March 12, 2020 12:24PM

But who you know in human history trumps my little Mormon sphere.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 01:58PM

I have many cousins.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 06:05PM

Sorry, I was mesmerized by the porn shoulders.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 07:35PM

I believe that every time I hear a newborn baby cry,
a guy leaves town!




Further deponent sayeth not.

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 02:57PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe that every time I hear a newborn baby
> cry,
> a guy leaves town!
>
>
>
>
> Further deponent sayeth not.


I almost said the same thing !!!!!!!!

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 07:44PM

Why do you have to be told what to believe instead of

deciding for yourself what you will believe? Is it only

valid if someone tells you?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 07:49PM

Apparently it's something akin to guilt by association.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 07:58PM

Thank you for this. It helped me understand your other posts on the Board, and inspired me to start a thread about William James' essay, The Will to Believe. After listening to your video, I think reading this essay might be as helpful to you as it has been for me.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 11, 2020 09:02PM

Just to be clear, I'm not Bethany Kay, who posted the video. I just shared it.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 11:41AM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just to be clear, I'm not Bethany Kay, who posted
> the video. I just shared it.
================================
Was going to say you have nice shoulders

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 02:22PM

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just to be clear, I'm not Bethany Kay, who
> posted
> > the video. I just shared it.
> ================================
> Was going to say you have nice shoulders
You should see my knees. Sexy AF!

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Posted by: snowball ( )
Date: March 12, 2020 10:31AM

I think this is normal after--for lack of better words--a faith crisis.

One concept that was really hard to accept after Mormonism, but was really essential was leaning into the uncertainty of life and accepting it.

We transitioned from a state of absolute certainty to one of existential uncertainty. If raised in the LDS worldview, the Plan of Salvation was about as fundamental to our early understanding of the world as 2+2 = 4. When that gets thrown into doubt, there's a lot of anxiety that can come with that.

On the other hand, I've found the lack of certainty can be liberating in other ways. It gives us permission to fail or make the wrong decision. I always think we should try to make good decisions, but Mormonism could be paralyzing for me sometimes. I felt like I had to have confirmation or inspiration from the spirit before undertaking any big (or sometimes small) endeavor.
Having the self-permission to make decisions, move on and learn without needing external validation from spiritual feelings or prophetic/leader guidance on every little thing is a lifted burden.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: March 12, 2020 12:20PM

Why do you insist on believing ? Try knowing instead.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 13, 2020 10:08PM

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do you insist on believing ? Try knowing
> instead.

As long as the scientist's best guess is off by 95% (Dark Matter/Energy) we don't have that option.

As long as the Great Attractor is pulling our galaxy and all our neighboring galaxies towards it at 14 million mph, even though it's 250 Million Light Years away, yet is 400million light years across, we don't really have that option.

http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/greatatt.htm

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Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: March 13, 2020 11:10PM

"As long as the scientist's best guess is off by 95% (Dark Matter/Energy) we don't have that option.

As long as the Great Attractor is pulling our galaxy and all our neighboring galaxies towards it at 14 million mph, even though it's 250 Million Light Years away, yet is 400million light years across, we don't really have that option.

http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/greatatt.htm";

==There is a lot more than that that is not discovered yet. It is possible the reason behind it are smurfs, angels, gods, demons, the tooth fairy or any one of the other personalities that we have all heard about from our ancestors.

You can also take a look at the entire domain of physics, chemistry, biology and see what has already been discovered. Have scientists even encountered a case where the reason behind a phenomenon has been determined to be one of those personalities?
Nope.

In the past, lightning was believed to be caused by some god that was angry. I think it was Zeus in the Greek religion.
Science replaced that with "It is because matter is made of atoms which are made of electrons and protons and basically lightning is static electricity and it can reach 10 MV or so.".

Diseased was believed to be caused by gods or demons. Now we know that diseases can have a genetic basis (mutations), bacteria or virus infection, yeast or some other pest.

Slowly, science has been replacing the "that personalities did it!" with actual explanations that are observable and predictable.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 06:16PM

iceman9090 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ==There is a lot more than that that is not
> discovered yet. It is possible the reason behind
> it are smurfs, angels, gods, demons, the tooth
> fairy or any one of the other personalities that
> we have all heard about from our ancestors.
>
> You can also take a look at the entire domain of
> physics, chemistry, biology and see what has
> already been discovered. Have scientists even
> encountered a case where the reason behind a
> phenomenon has been determined to be one of those
> personalities?
> Nope.

Yes, the God Particle, which is more of a universal field, responsible for giving form to the building blocks of matter, by slowing down energy long enough to matter.

> In the past, lightning was believed to be caused
> by some god that was angry. I think it was Zeus in
> the Greek religion.
> Science replaced that with "It is because matter
> is made of atoms which are made of electrons and
> protons and basically lightning is static
> electricity and it can reach 10 MV or so."

m=E/c^2.
Or IOW, (m)atter is (E)nergy slowed down by (c) the speed of light squared (^2),
Or IOW, to almost nothing,
but not quite.

> Diseased was believed to be caused by gods or
> demons. Now we know that diseases can have a
> genetic basis (mutations), bacteria or virus
> infection, yeast or some other pest.

And there are 10 times more of those foreign (non-human) organisms in us than there are human cells, begging the question, who or what is in charge here? Are we in charge of the biomass or is it in charge and created us as their hosts?

> Slowly, science has been replacing the "that
> personalities did it!" with actual explanations
> that are observable and predictable.

True. I agree with that and am not arguing for any kind of superstition, I'm just saying that even scientists have to believe in things they can't see, like the 95% of the cosmos we call "Dark Matter/Energy" for lack of a better term. Why not just call it 'Cosmological Constant"?

And what's the difference between the 'cosmological constant' and what we call 'god'?

https://www.space.com/9593-einstein-biggest-blunder-turns.html

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Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: March 13, 2020 11:42PM

So, that's really you, Bethany Kay?
Sorry that mormonism failed you.
Personally, I recommend studying science. It addresses what nature is and how it behaves. However, science is for me. I don't know if you will find pleasure and delight in science.

Were you born in a mormon family?

I was a christian. I dumped it early on. I recognized early on that all religions are faulty and should be sent back to the manufacturer for repairs. But the warranty is out and they don't want to repair it and they want me to just trust them.

Bottom line, you have to explore reality for yourself and decide what is true for yourself. I can discuss things with you if you want.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 12:21PM

==There is a lot more than that that is not discovered yet. It is possible the reason behind it are smurfs, angels, gods, demons, the tooth fairy or any one of the other personalities that we have all heard about from our ancestors.

You can also take a look at the entire domain of physics, chemistry, biology and see what has already been discovered. Have scientists even encountered a case where the reason behind a phenomenon has been determined to be one of those personalities?

Nope.

COMMENT: This is the kind of anti-religion rhetoric that –even as an atheist – drives me crazy. Theologians (and religious believers generally) do not believe that the gaps of science can be explained by these pejorative “personalities” assigned as equivalent to “God,” as rationally defined by religion. To my knowledge, SC in particular has never subscribed to such things. Rather he (or she) has pointed out (here) the “existential crisis” that often accompanies a rejection of Mormonism, and has embraced repeatedly (it seems) what he (or she) has called “Einstein’s God,” as a personal response to that crisis, while citing numerous prominent scientists that seem to agree with such a view. (Criticisms from Board members, including myself, notwithstanding)

Moreover, your second objection is also misplaced. The fact that science has not “discovered” that any existing phenomena can best be explained by assuming “supernatural personalities” has absolutely nothing to do with theology, which is by its nature a metaphysical construct, as are ultimate explanations in science. Science has not “discovered” the ultimate “reasons” behind *any* experiential phenomena; including “reasons” behind its own theoretical constructs, like, quarks, multiple universes, superstrings, or any number of other “entities” of science.
_________________________________________________________

In the past, lightning was believed to be caused by some god that was angry. I think it was Zeus in the Greek religion.

Science replaced that with "It is because matter is made of atoms which are made of electrons and protons and basically lightning is static electricity and it can reach 10 MV or so.".

Diseased was believed to be caused by gods or demons. Now we know that diseases can have a genetic basis (mutations), bacteria or virus infection, yeast or some other pest.

COMMENT: O.K. So science has corrected religion in the past. SCIENCE HAS ALSO CORRECTED SCIENCE! SCIENCE IS A TOOL TO CORRECT FALSE BELIEFS, WHATEVER THEIR SOURCE. IT DOES NOT FOLLOW AT ALL THAT ALL OF RELIGION WILL EVENTUALLY BE DISPLACED BY SOME ALTERNATIVE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION, ANY MORE THAN IT FOLLOWS THAT ALL OF SCIENCE WILL EVENTUALLY BE DISPLACED BY BETTER SCIENCE. SO, WHAT IS YOUR POINT? (Sorry for shouting)
_______________________________________________________

Slowly, science has been replacing the "that personalities did it!" with actual explanations that are observable and predictable.

COMMENT: Not really. Has science explained consciousness, morality, human freewill, or the origin of the universe, or the origin of life, or the origin of intelligence? Science has been working on these problems, more or less, for centuries and has so far come up empty. The *intractability* of these questions--not just their current scientific status--is often what motivates religion—including for several well-established scientists!
____________________________________________________________

I was a christian. I dumped it early on. I recognized early on that all religions are faulty and should be sent back to the manufacturer for repairs. But the warranty is out and they don't want to repair it and they want me to just trust them.

COMMENT: Of course, what you personally decide to do and believe is your business. But your understanding of the science-religion debate is suspect. Consider this quote from the well-respected cosmologist-astrophysicist, Frank Tipler, whose religious beliefs are not based upon faith, but science!

“When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics.” (Frank Tipler, The Physics of Immortality, Page ix)

Now, I do not agree with Tipler’s theory, but I have at least read the book, and understand that it is, in fact, scientifically and mathematically based -— upon the materialist and reductionist principles revered by science. Moreover, I have read the criticisms and reactions to it in the scientific community, some very harsh (mostly the professional skeptics) and some supportive of at least the underlying science, while rejecting the religious component. (See David Deutsch, The Fabric of Reality)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_J._Tipler

What is important here, is that however one views Tipler's statement and theory, or the statements of many other scientists who attempt to reconcile religion and science, one should pause before dismissing religion as per se archaic, unscientific folly in all its forms and varieties.
________________________________________________________

Bottom line, you have to explore reality for yourself and decide what is true for yourself. I can discuss things with you if you want.

COMMENT: Your whole response here, even if there is some validity to your criticisms, is unjustifiably condescending and distorted for reasons noted.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 12:56PM

Navigating life is like canoeing down a stream you have never been down before.

You can believe there is wide open lazy bit of water around the bend, or, you can believe there is a rapid, or a waterfall or big log laying across the river or a troupe of fairies to guide you. You can believe there are beautiful people with a big picnic basket filled with lobster and champagne at then end of the journey.

This belief is obviously useless as you cannot see around the bend and any of the above as well as a few other options could be waiting.

What works is keeping your senses connected to your brain and using every big of information they gather to keep you safe, to give you a high, to make you laugh a little, notice the trees and flowers and the rock that looks like Alfred Hitccock, and to make you afraid enough to stay alert.

Danger is your friend. It will keep your senses alive.

Now heading down the river of life . . . aw, too easy.

Belief? Except for belief in yourself, well, that's for fairy tales. They'd be no good without it.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 01:30PM

How many religions gained some traction because of a good guess?

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 01:44PM

Well, there is that.

And all it takes is a good guess that is right once, and, voila~! You are a prophet!

Sometimes doesn't even take that. Just the trappings will do.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 02:58PM

My whole life is an existential crisis.

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Posted by: barleycorns ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 03:10PM

The thing is, why do we require something to believe in? Not sure of the answer. For me. Just me. 'It' seems complex enough that there is more to all than happenstance. Could be wrong. I've been considering deism for a while. No one knows the answer. Everyone who says they do eventually asks for money/support. I could use some bucks. "Hey, let me tell you..."

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 05:12PM

barleycorns Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thing is, why do we require something to
> believe in? Not sure of the answer. For me. Just
> me. 'It' seems complex enough that there is more
> to all than happenstance. Could be wrong. I've
> been considering deism for a while. No one knows
> the answer. Everyone who says they do eventually
> asks for money/support. I could use some bucks.
> "Hey, let me tell you..."

100%, this, but the Dalai Lama never asked me for a dime and he has given away his wisdom for free. So have a lot of wise wo/men, like Malala, Gretta, Jane, Michio, Carl, Stephen and Albert. Not to mention a bunch of dead wise humans.
I was telling a co-worker who asked if I was still Mormon, "No. It's really racist. I don't know of amy other religion as racist as Mormonism. Nobody else mistook 19th C racist myths used to justify slavery and genocide, for the Word of God. And they're proud of it! Their scriptures still say God cursed Indians with dark skin for the sins of their father's! I quit when DNA Testing came along and all these myths were proven false, so why maintain them? Just because the church os a multi-billion dollar business? No. Im not paying for a huge slush fumd!
I am a freelancer spiritually. I am open source.
Ooen Source?
Yeah, I get my spirituak needs met out in the open, om mountain tops. In the forest, under the sea. Sailing, surfing. And only rarely in a building."
He agreed.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: March 14, 2020 05:59PM

I suspect that even the most determined nihilist forgets themselves from time to time and questions life's ultimate meaning.

I have lots of thoughts on the video but to just boil it down to just a few thoughts.

I think. I think that externally sourced meaning is always going to be insufficient. Losing my Mormon faith created an internal crisis for me because the foundation of my philosophical existence was external. Those who have internalized their existence, whether it is based on reality or not, are going to be stronger than those who have farmed out their personal meaning.

I also think. I also think that how someone speaks about their personal existence is very revelatory. If I offer my gratitude to Joseph Smith for giving my life meaning than potentially my life's meaning is based on Joseph Smith and not on something more internal.

Anyway, cheers all.

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