Full disclosure - I am a tee total atheist from a mainstream Christian family that spent 45 years developing the courage to finally express my views. 10 Years ago I married my now wife who was not active but from a TBM family. Anyways she has had a renewed interest over the past 4 years or so and any conversation we have on the topic turns ugly. I love this woman with every fiber of my being but it is breaking me down. The especially frustrating part is that she is such an intelligent woman - I have no comprehension as to how she can't see thru the smoke and mirrors.

I can't stand the thought of this evil, vile church destroying my family but it seems that is the course we're on. Any and all advice is appreciated

I feel very inadequate trying to offer advice, but I will say this: just continue being a good person. Be kind, supportive, and charitable towards others. Give her the chance to see that goodness doesn’t require a belief in God (Mormon or otherwise).

Other than that, I just wish you the best.

Thank you for the kind words and that is exactly what I have done and will continue to do.

Her mother is quite elderly and I think is some longing for her to demonstrate to mom she is properly sealed to a "good Mormon" husband. Is hard to compete with generational brainwashing.

As I've heard many a mormon say "you can not be mormon....and still be a good person."

Who would have thought?

I agree with Crisping Pin though. Show her how good you can be without being a mormon.

My atheist wife showed me what being a good person actually looks like. It was her example of unconditional love and compassion that helped me realize that religion doesn't make a person better. My wife is a Labor-and-delivery nurse in a busy hospital and she saves lives all of the time. I could tell you stories of people who probably would have died if my wife was not their nurse.


I point this out to my TBM family members when they ask about my wife. They still seem to think she is missing something. The reality is they are missing out on being closer to her. What have they done to help the planet? Would anyone outside of family miss any of my TBM family members when they die? Not likely.

Many of our friends are gay/in the rainbow. We love them all. If I were still a mormon that would not be possible because my love would be conditional. I know mormons give lip-service to loving everyone but in reality this does not happen.

How many gay friends does your wife have? (not that it is a contest) Would being more TBM change that? Probably not for the better.

Your example is the best thing you can show your wife. I'm sure she is a wonderful person. She just needs your love and support and action.

"Anyways she has had a renewed interest over the past 4 years or so and any conversation we have on the topic turns ugly."

This is telling. Methinks your approach could change and not put her on the defensive as much. Your call, and others might say push harder but I say gentle hands are better placed here with her.

Many long-term relationships have “irreconcilable differences.” What keeps the relationships alive is that both parties understand that there will never be a meeting of the minds over specific differences, and that something else needs to be present to hold the relationship together.

After I left Mormonism, I distanced myself from any church of faith community for a long time. My wife encouraged me to explore faith more (probably meaning the LDS faith). I did, and after a lot of study joined a mainstream Protestant Church.

Total irreconcilable difference here, but other things hold us together. So, see if you have something else to build your relationship on. Best wishes, The Boner

Wisdom.

Intimate relationships must be irreconcilable to be healthy, otherwise someone has ceased existing as an independent person. Better to recognize and accept, where possible, the differences and focus on the more enduring factors in the relationship.

If there aren't such independent forces keeping two people together, perhaps they shouldn't be.

.

I always say, "If two people go together like peanut butter and jelly--then one has turned to jelly."

I thank both of you—my dear friends—for you wisdom, wit, and love.

And you have our deep respect and affection.

+ a billion.

Watch your head boner.

My simple advice. Don't let your disdain of Mormonism be the focus. Attacking it will only make her desire for it stronger.

 At one point the two of you had similar goals.

 Now she has added a goal that has no appeal to you. She is likely already having conversations with people who are telling her things that she wants to hear in terms of where your relationship is going.

 It's hard to stay together when doing a 'new' thing requires that you look down on someone who was formerly a fixture in your life; now that person's 'fixture' status is being removed or is already gone.

 This phrase: "...longing ... to demonstrate to (her) mom she is properly sealed to a 'good Mormon' husband..." is very telling.

 Because it is in my nature to be facetious, I'm first going to offer up the possibility that your wife is doing it for the money, i.e., her share of the inheritance will be greater if she can invite her mom to the sealing ceremony.

 But then it gets not so facetious. If she is dead set on getting sealed to a man for time and all eternity, and she knows that it won't be you, then she will have no problem turning off her love for you. You became the enemy.

 It's so easy to speculate endlessly regarding what is going on in your wife's mind.

 For the first six years of your marriage, everything was fine. What changed her point of view? Why did so become active? Who promised her what? And as you pointed out, how could she believe it?

 As to the latter, it doesn't matter what explanations anyone comes up with, the fact is that people have been known to do all sorts of wacko things because they wanted to please __________. (The one that gets me is the 'Christian' with a gun to his head, being told, "say, 'Jesus Christ is a schmuck' or I'll kill you!"
And the Christian says, 'No! His name is sacred!' Then BANG. All you have to do is say it and then repent at your leisure!)

 It seems to me to be likely that she is probably thinking, "I've given him years now to become a mormon and he won't do it! I hate him!"

 So she gets to stop loving you for cause; it was YOUR fault...

 Horror stories abound regarding the illegal and immoral acts that have been carried out by righteous mormons as they rid themselves of unbelieving spouses. The local church authorities are almost always happy to pass along lies to help a member out.

 Who is your wife's 'best friend'? If it's a mormon, look out!

 I always hope for the best, but I make sure Saucie* watches my 6...





*Saucie: my girlfriend. We're going steady! Finally!!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>  At one point the two of you had similar goals.
>
>  Now she has added a goal that has no appeal to
> you. She is likely already having conversations
> with people who are telling her things that she
> wants to hear in terms of where your relationship
> is going.
>
>  It's hard to stay together when doing a 'new'
> thing requires that you look down on someone who
> was formerly a fixture in your life; now that
> person's 'fixture' status is being removed or is
> already gone.
>
>  This phrase: "...longing ... to demonstrate to
> (her) mom she is properly sealed to a 'good
> Mormon' husband..." is very telling.
>
>  Because it is in my nature to be facetious, I'm
> first going to offer up the possibility that your
> wife is doing it for the money, i.e., her share of
> the inheritance will be greater if she can invite
> her mom to the sealing ceremony.
>
>  But then it gets not so facetious. If she is
> dead set on getting sealed to a man for time and
> all eternity, and she knows that it won't be you,
> then she will have no problem turning off her love
> for you. You became the enemy.
>
>  It's so easy to speculate endlessly regarding
> what is going on in your wife's mind.
>
>  For the first six years of your marriage,
> everything was fine. What changed her point of
> view? Why did so become active? Who promised her
> what? And as you pointed out, how could she
> believe it?
>
>  As to the latter, it doesn't matter what
> explanations anyone comes up with, the fact is
> that people have been known to do all sorts of
> wacko things because they wanted to please
> __________. (The one that gets me is the
> 'Christian' with a gun to his head, being told,
> "say, 'Jesus Christ is a schmuck' or I'll kill
> you!"
> And the Christian says, 'No! His name is sacred!'
> Then BANG. All you have to do is say it and then
> repent at your leisure!)
>
>  It seems to me to be likely that she is probably
> thinking, "I've given him years now to become a
> mormon and he won't do it! I hate him!"
>
>  So she gets to stop loving you for cause; it was
> YOUR fault...
>
>  Horror stories abound regarding the illegal and
> immoral acts that have been carried out by
> righteous mormons as they rid themselves of
> unbelieving spouses. The local church authorities
> are almost always happy to pass along lies to help
> a member out.
>
>  Who is your wife's 'best friend'? If it's a
> mormon, look out!
>
>  I always hope for the best, but I make sure
> Saucie* watches my 6...
>
>
>
>
>
> *Saucie: my girlfriend. We're going steady!
> Finally!!

YAY Yay Yay.... we'll be leaving for our so called Honeymoon as soon as the corona virus scare is over.

My 2 cents.

Brainwashing is real. If you push too hard, it's quite possible to blow back and cause her to retrench further into cult mode. "Proving her wrong" against her will is only going to make both of your lives miserable. That said, an occasional well-placed question has been known to take root. Women tend to have an especially difficult time rationalizing polygamy in heaven, a core but seldom discussed mormon doctrine. Does she really want to share you with a harem of sister wives in the celestial kingdom? Per the doctrine, if you want them, you'll be able to collect them whether she likes it or not.

You can expect the cult to redouble its efforts to recruit you. Pressure is being placed on her at church to drag you in. The cult wants your sweet sweet tithing money and free labor. You must make it clear that under no circumstances are you going to join the cult. Then it will be up to her to decide whether you or the cult is her primary love.

My best advice is don't argue. State calmly and reasonably that you're never signing up and it's not up for discussion or negotiation. Then if/when she tries to argue or demand or threaten, just walk away and don't engage further. Repeat "No" as often as necessary. Same with the stream of missionaries and other stuffed white shirts they are bound to send over to press you.

Mormonism is well and truly a cult, as evidenced by her behavior.

synonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Women tend to have an especially difficult time
> rationalizing polygamy in heaven, a core but
> seldom discussed mormon doctrine. Does she really
> want to share you with a harem of sister wives in
> the celestial kingdom? Per the doctrine, if you
> want them, you'll be able to collect them whether
> she likes it or not.

I don't know if you know this but what you wrote is very sexist. I've heard it a million times and it still don't make it meaningful.

In my opinion, most people have a hard time living in multiple partner relationships. It might have been easier in the past but in our modern culture with the focus on the individual and not the wider group of people one lives with and loves people tend naturally towards pair bonds.

Your argument reduces people to objects as if women specifically "own" another male person. Trying to rationalize with a loved one from a point of view involving "sharing" another person is an argument from possession. Only people for whom possessing people is desirable would this argument hold water. And it doesn't matter if it is a man or a woman or the motivation is a "harem" or a household. It is a terrible argument.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2020 02:00PM by Elder Berry.

I respect your opinion, but (for the time being) I'm going to disagree. I certainly didn't intend for it to come across like that. To the degree what I wrote above may appear sexist, it's only because the underlying doctrine is itself deeply sexist. Mormon women are seen within the church as possessions in a way that men are not. It's awful, yes, but IMO true.

I do believe that in general, mormon women have a harder time with polygamy than mormon men. I recently read, here or on another board, how entire RS discussions talk about polygamy and how painful it is for them to think about sharing their husband for eternity with other women. OTOH, I was never in any priesthood meeting (YM, EQ or otherwise) where the topic was brought up in a negative light.

While on my mission, when the subject was raised with the sister missionaries, every last one of them, bar none, were visibly unhappy with the idea. I can assure you that not one Elder I ever knew saw a problem with it.

The context of my comment was that if there is any single concept or doctrine that might put an early crack in OP's wife's TBM foundation, it is most likely to be that one, and that he ought to at least understand her thoughts on it. In retrospect, using "harem" was probably insensitive and needlessly provocative, and for that I apologize.

I don't want to hijack the thread with this side discussion, so I'll leave it right here and won't add any more.

Thanks for your reply.

We just come at the problem from different directions. My sister is a polygamist who was raised mainstream Mormon. The possession of the one husband is a huge problem as well.

The sharing aspect of Mormonism precludes people getting their panties in a wad over polygamy. They have to accept it just not live it. Taking the tact over polygamy as an argument to try to persuade someone Mormonism is not for them doesn't have a lot of steam in my opinion and is a tad sexist in that pointing out to a woman that she is possessive of her husband in Mormonism and isn't very tactful.

Until SLC removes Section 132, that argument is moot and got no legs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2020 07:10PM by Elder Berry.

I'm a nevermo with a TBM wife; at least, she was when we married. She had every expectation that I would convert, though I had repeatedly told her that I never would, and that it was more likely that she would leave if I shared with her everything I learned about Mormonism, including from their own website.

The first two or three years of our marriage had ugly arguments whenever the subject of Mormonism came up, which it did weekly. We settled into an "agree to disagree" posture for the past four or five years, with only occasional flare-ups over religion.

Over the seven years of marriage, my wife has gone from TBM to inactive to Jack (Jill?) Mormon who drinks alcohol, has no callings, and misses more Sundays than she attends. She still wants to believe, but she looks at me and sees that I am a good man (nothing like her first husband who was an RM ass) who she'd rather spend time with than anybody she knows from church. I think she's actually happier now that when she was actively trying to convert me.

None of that would have happened if I hadn't learned to stop engaging whenever she tried to convert me or at least convince me that Mormonism is as great as Mormons what to believe it is.

GregS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> None of that would have happened if I hadn't
> learned to stop engaging whenever she tried to
> convert me or at least convince me that Mormonism
> is as great as Mormons what to believe it is.


I think this is where I'm at, or at least trying to be.

A very funny thing - when she starts trying to "preach" to me it sounds like a different person talking, as in completely unnatural to her - I'm fairly convinced some family member (or someone else from the church) has her ear and is adding to the pollution.

For now I'm at least enjoying the respite provided by the corona virus :)

Yeah, there is some pollution there, but it's hard to determine whether it is from an individual or just something absorbed from the toxic environment.

There was a period where my wife stated several times that she felt that she had to make a choice between me or the church. This struck me as a bit odd since I was doing nothing to prevent her attending church or following her callings. Hell, I even attend sacrament meetings with her because I knew Sundays were important to her and she felt uncomfortable going to church alone where she felt others would judge her for being alone.

That was one of the most infuriating things; she would make such an admission about how judgmental and petty her fellow Mormons were, but then insist how much better Mormons were than everybody else.

Anyway, I asked her who told her she had to choose because it sure wasn't me. From my perspective, she could have both me AND the church because I was making no demands on her to leave the church. The only one making ultimatums was her.

She started quoting scriptures and prophets and GAs who stated that the only way for a woman (and men, too, for that matter) to get to the CK was to be sealed in the temple and to keep all covenants. She couldn't do that if she wasn't sealed to me, and she couldn't be sealed to me if I didn't convert.

I asked why she even bothered to marry me then, particularly when I told her from the time we met that I was never going convert. She said that it boiled down to me being a better man than anybody she knew, including the men she knew from church, many of whom she said were asses (particularly her first husband, who was a returned missionary).

My response was something along the lines of, "What does that tell you?"

We're still married five years after that exchange. Issues still come up, but I would say we're both happier and she's stopped saying she has to choose between me or the church. She attends church less than she used to, but it's her choice and not due to any pressure I've put on her. I'm even showered, shaved, and ready to go on Sundays when she asks, "Would you be upset if we stayed home today?"

Listen to them.