Stolen, borrowed, improved upon ideas worth billions.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/billion-dollar-ideas-that-were-stolen/ss-BB11YfSv

Makes me think of Mormonism. Joe just liked compiling and organizing and that was his modus operandi. Briggy just "improved" upon the evolution. Both used stolen esoteric ideas, histories, speculations and unattributed folk thinking, magic, and superstitions. Was there anything original in Smith and Young thinking?

How to make a billion - just keep stealing, incorporating, intellectual reserving, and governmental adjusting while stashing the proceeds of the faithful away for a rainy day.

Mormons like to claim that baptism for the dead has precedence in the New Testament, but I've heard Christian scholars say that the New Testament actually doesn't provide support for the practice in ancient times at all.

So, if baptism for the dead is based upon a misinterpretation of the New Testament (such that it never actually was practiced before Mormonism), maybe you could say it's original to Mormonism. Or maybe you could just say it was a failed attempt at plagiarism. I don't know.

Wasn’t the temple originally for practicing “plural marriage” in secret? Back then, bigamy laws didn’t apply since God’s laws superseded them. The “prophet” even said so. Would he lie?

I'm pretty sure in the the New Testament Paul basically says "Hey, if there's no resurrection then why is that sect (the Corinthians) over there baptising for the dead?"
I read a commentary about this which has a great term that fits Mo's and BFD perfectly: "magical sacramentalism".

Granted, that fits most religions, but if it doesn't fit the mormons like a custom-made glove, I don't know what does...

I have heard Christian scholar say that this "baptism for the dead" to which Paul referred didn't involve any water or dunking at all, but instead someone hiding underneath a corpse (called a catachumen) and speaking on its behalf.

Not really what the Mormons do.

Mormonism is a hodgepodge of various other New England sects. The disdain for the cross, and statues, comes from the puritan tradition of hating crosses, and tearing down idols. Even though now almost all protestant churches display the cross once again. Mormonism kept the archaic 1600s tradition. Sunday School comes from the Baptist church. Testimony meeting from the Quaker sect.

I can't think of anything original.

How true. Just what I was looking for. Thanks. And throw in a little William Morgan Masonry where it was demonized in The Book of Mormon and then lionized in The Endowment...

If "original" means STUPID, RIDICULOUS, OBNOXIOUS, ASININE, CRAZY, MEAN, TORTURING, TORMENTING, THOUGHTLESS... then maybe so.

Began by a Con Man, run by deluding (deluded?) fools, going straight to HELLo- that's original!

Word(s) of Wisdumb, crochety underwear, [LYING about] caffeine, SHUNNING, are all unique to OXYmoronISM.

What's "original" is the PERVERSION of anything good, to make it evil, I mean Mormon.

There are two new ideas in Mormonism that I don’t see in other monotheistic religions—marriage and the family are for eternity. I know this doctrine comes out of D&C 132 —polygamy, but the way it’s evolved into “families are forever” makes it new.

Also, the notion that humans can progress into gods is something missing from other monotheists. Again, Section 132.

Mormonism’s views on the Godhead can be found in earlier hetero-orthodoxies that had long been suppressed. These are not new.

Yeah, I think you are right? But wasn't the spiritual wivery a borrowing?

Ironic if these are original because they are the most embarrassing for them.

I think forever families are a given for many Christian religions? Like many people look forward to being reunited with loved ones.

There are “Ghost Marriages” in some Native American traditions, but they are more metaphorical than Mormon sealing to the dead.

Interesting. I was thinking of Swedenborg.

You could be right about Swedenborg. I think most Christians see marriage as “an earthly estate.” Jesus’s words about neither marry nor married but as angels in the Resurrection have to be considered “not translated correctly” by Mormons.

I once asked a friend of mine who is a Catholic priest what heresies Mormonism taught.

His reply was "All of them."

Many decades ago I read a book that boiled down all religions to their basic doctrines and compared them.

I was shocked to see how many non Christian religions had a "saviour" or "god king" or equivalent, both male and female that died, descended into the underworld or afterlife and returned. Then became the gate keeper or judge of the dead etc.

The legend of Ishtar always comes to mind each feast of Ishtar ie easter. Ishtar not only descended into the realms of the dead and returned, she was also crucified.

The great mormon apologists and supreme liar and distorter of facts for the faith Hugh Nibley explained this similarities away by saying Satan inspired many religions to copy and distort the gospel to lead away the righteous into bondage.

I don't see any modern religion as anything other than a group of people following someone who cobbled together some ideas and convinced people they needed to follow them.

Polygamy? Nope that was stolen. Hmmm i can't think of one.

PH 'authority' is exaggerated in MoMism if not original.

In a general sense the claimed discretion / discernment of leaders is amplified in MoMism, IDK if it can be found in or traced to Christianity, but interesting questions on this thread.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PH 'authority' is exaggerated in MoMism if not
> original.

I wonder. This may be the billion dollar idea but I don't know if it was stolen. Brigham Young was attracted to Mormonism because I believe it was "everyman an authority." He was like most men of the time self-made and self-reliant thinking preachers and priests who had to study to get authority was not attractive.

Mormonism made the men empowered though Joseph Smith bought into the idea that book learning was still an important aspect of his calling. Why else hire for Hebrew tutoring?

But maybe that was just a conman trying to cover his tracks and increase his power of conmanship?

I’d say it is emphasised in the mormon church in that they are claiming it is unique to them. Maybe it is in terms of new religions? I mean that’s their thing isn’t it? They claim this is what makes them the only true church. But there are plenty of churches and people /cults that claim to speak for god. What might be new is they are claiming to have authority passed on by Jesus himself...

Of course I don’t believe in such things anyway, but in terms of a priesthood handed down by Jesus, surely the Catholic Church would also claim the same thing. If I had to logically choose which of the two is more likely to be valid I’d go with the catholics, but it’s interesting that catholics don’t show off and go on about it. Conversely, the mormons repeat “I know the church is true” so often that i fear they doth protest too much.

But it’s the mormons who claim priesthood authority is unique to them. But really all they’ve done is given something a name. They have new names for lots of “normal” or established religious stuff to make it sound special and unique. Vicars/priests are called bishops, Sunday school for kids is called primary, a health code is called the word of wisdom, congregations are called wards and stakes, women’s group is called relief society.
A couple of exceptions: ‘“ministering” - well that’s definitely not new but they come with stuff like being chaste and kind as if it is new info. They also talk like they invented the family; I’m surprised they didn’t give that a new name, but then it is their marketing ploy, dumb as it is. I could go on...

Celestial Family. Forever Family.

Ahh yes, good point! Ugh I think I blocked some stuff out.

Are mormons discouraged from joining / being active Masons?

Interesting question and a good one.

And those are just the old things. It's the basis for Mormonism all around. Whatever the larger society values, we have always said that.It's called co-opting followed by gaslighting.

Two examples: 1) Mothers' Day. Somehow, despite the horrific treatment of women in Mormonism, we have always valued Mothers and their invaluable contributions to society and the church. In fact, it seems that Mormons are the only people on the planet who really get Mothers' Day right!

2) Does anybody remember the In Search of Excellence days, back in the early eighties? It was a book series about how amazing corporations are. Within days of its publication, the whole of Mormonism had suddenly always been the world's chief proponent of Excellence in Every Area of Life and every Mormon was eternally on a Pursuit of Excellence. We had firesides and Sacrament Meetings and whole sections of Deseret Books devoted to Excellence.

Isn't Mormonism fun?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2020 04:06PM by slskipper.

I remember the search for Excellence! Also, Stephen Covey’s works were BIG in the culture—everyone seemed to carry around Covey planners. They went well with the business attire, not so much with the faded jeans and threadbare T-shirts the Boner espoused, PostIt notes worked for me

That which is good about Mormonism isn't unique

That which is unique about Mormonism isn't any good.

Sir, I believe you’ve created a little “couplet”.

I doubt they have any brand new ideas....But here are some possibilities (just for fun)....

Aren’t they the only mainstream sect/religion to enforce tithing as necessary for salvation?

Only “Christian” group to claim Jesus visited America.

They believe in one god, and many gods, simultaneously. That’s quite a mind trick. Even better than the trinity issue in Christianity.

The only Christians who claim Mary was not a virgin.

Are there other religions who believe men can become gods?(I don’t know).

Then there’s the whole Kolob thing. Lol.

I’d love to hear examples from other religions where they say one thing then directly contradict themselves not long afterwards. For example: Gods love is never ending and unconditional(insert tears). But then -wait - no, it’s actually conditional.

They seem unique in double messages pertaining to behaviour as well as with doctrine. For example: Women must be attractive whilst not appearing sexually alluring in any way. Now that’s either a totally new concept, or it’s more confusing doublespeak.

On that note, did they actually just steal a tonne of ideas from George Orwell?

Confession of sins has to be face to face. Children are also accountable for their sins.

Mormons are saved by their works, thus making them either extremely arrogant and/or suffering with shame & low self esteem.

Sealing of families for all eternity...Good grief, no wonder so many people leave.

They believe the ocean is owned by Satan or something.

Are they the only religion to expect a revelation and commitment based on feelings alone? A cult thing?

The only large religion to plagiarise the bible to a large degree but also only depending on what is convenient for their goals. If they don’t like something it gets changed. Thus we have this thread...

It’s unique in how un-unique it is. But not in a good way. It’s like a mirror universe from Star Trek.

I’m simultaneously amazed and unsurprised that I can’t think of more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2020 05:17PM by Third of Five.

That's impressive.

@Third Of Five:
"Aren’t they the only mainstream sect/religion to enforce tithing as necessary for salvation?"

==Where do they say that?

"They believe in one god, and many gods, simultaneously. That’s quite a mind trick. Even better than the trinity issue in Christianity."

==I'm not sure how that is different from christianity trinity. In Christianity, Jesus is suppose to be the version that is made of atoms who comes to Earth. Then he gets killed and becomes the soul version and sits on the right side of the jewish god. Also, they are both the same somehow.
And somehow, there is this 3rd guy called holy ghost.

"The only Christians who claim Mary was not a virgin."

==I guess you mean this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_doctrine
Adam is the jewish god.
Michael was not the only creator god, however, as he was a member of a council of Earth's creator gods, which also included the gods "Elohim" and "Jehovah."
Finally, the doctrine teaches that Michael/Adam was the literal, biological father of the mortal body of Jesus.[29]

But Brigham Young died and new prophets were born and they removed that ...... thing.... that story.

You forgot the thing about the Sun does not emit light. It gets its light from another star.

"I’d love to hear examples from other religions where they say one thing then directly contradict themselves not long afterwards. For example: Gods love is never ending and unconditional (insert tears). But then -wait - no, it’s actually conditional."

==Christianity is the same. God loves you but he will kill you, torture you forever.

"Mormons are saved by their works, thus making them either extremely arrogant and/or suffering with shame & low self esteem."

==Ah, the classic question that I love: Are moral rules moral because a god says so or because they are intrinsically moral?

"Sealing of families for all eternity...Good grief, no wonder so many people leave."

==You mean that a man and woman are married forever?
I think a lot of people don't understand the meaning of forever.
Sounds like you understand it.

"They believe the ocean is owned by Satan or something."

==What?

Mormons can’t go to the temple unless they pay tithing, and they won’t get to the celestial kingdom without being temple worthy.

Yes the trinity is an issue very similar. My point is that in mormonism there have been many gods before Elohim and Jesus, and there will be many after.

I heard it taught in church lessons, Sunday school and so on that God literally fathered Jesus, making Mary not a virgin. As far as I’m aware this wasn’t changed, but of course you’re right, they rewrite a lot of doctrine.

My understanding from Christians generally is that they believe in grace. You are saved just from belief in Jesus and his sacrifice, and good works will naturally follow due to the gratitude you feel for his grace saving you. Works do not add to your salvation or guarantee a higher state of exaltation. Depending on the Christian denomination the balance between grace and works tends to vary. But the mormon church takes it to the other extreme and I don’t personally know of any other denomination who does that. In mormonism you “are saved only after all you can do”, and that list is of course endless, which is what makes mormonism so manipulative, controlling and spirituality abusive.

Mormons believe that Satan has dominion over the waters; I think it’s in the endowment ceremony. Or was. They might be hiding this doctrine as well now but it was at least a thing when I was a member.

@Third of Five:

Christianity has something like 37,000 sects. That info comes from a christian youtube video and I have seen it youtube comments. You reach that number when you count the major ones + all the independent churches that the USA has.

Christianity is a very fragmented religion. The text (new testament and old testament as well) is a case of too many cooks in the kitchen ruin the soup. You can find lines that contradict each other.
At one point, it talks about being saved only by believing in Jesus. Another place, it talks about about helping the poor (the Lazarus and the nameless rich man story) and the rich goes to hell and is tortured forever.

“In mormonism you “are saved only after all you can do”, and that list is of course endless, which is what makes mormonism so manipulative, controlling and spirituality abusive.”

==In christianity, it isn’t clear who is saved. All christians assume that they are saved. The bible does state that 12,000 jews from each of the 12 tribes of Israel will be saved = TOTAL = 144,000 jews. So what does that mean for non-jews?
This is something that priests don’t mention in churches.
Jewhova witnesses assume that 144,000 are going to heaven and the rest of the saved will be living on Earth and they will have a body, their original body. How is that possible? There is a limited number of carbon atoms and also those atoms will be used by someone else when you die or even breath.
The human body is not a static thing.

Well, let’s not think and just believe and send the church money.

~~~~iceman9090

I believe the water thing started on a river as 'the saints' (NOT the Norleans saints) were escaping persecution (or was it Prosecution? I forget...)

Mormon funeral potatoes and strange ways to use jello.

Coffee and tea are forbidden, as in, drinking it is a sin.

Obsession with baking, usually using a lot of sugar. A cultural thing I know, but I really noticed that as a convert.

Having exceltionally plain meeting houses, but extremely elaborate and expensive temples that are quite the opposite.

Owning universities?

Having so many full time missionaries. And it being almost mandatory and expected for all young men to serve a mission.

Conquering an entire US state?

If you repeat a sin, previous similar offences you repented of are no longer forgiven.

Children are interviewed for worthiness.

Good list.

The interviewing children about sinning is such a huge liberty in Mormonism but I think there are equivalencies that aren't mandated by policies in other organized religions where these open doors of child abuse.

Lots of universities are owned by religions or religious orders. Pepperdine, Gonzaga, Norte Dame, SMU all come to mind.

Not that I can determine!

One spouse using religion as a Wedge against another due to the out-of-whack expectations of perfection by the person who initiates the divorce.

this was augmented by the temple recommend interview questions, IDK if it's still in there or has been diluted as 'honesty' was...


Yes, we can depend on Mormonism to be self-serving & divisive.

Man is that he might have joy.

I was active here 10-15 years ago. My nick and password do not work now.

Best thing then was the name of the Dude to write to to Quit. He failed to reply to my first request, then got real upset when I demanded again. You had to get his name to quit.

Long intellectual posts by several including Mr X. Real anger.

Few friendships.

My eldest son died. No one from my ward called. Best thing I did was to come here. Second best was to forget this web site. Used it and get my life back. I really hate this crazy folks. Never been in Utah since. Thanks for this site. Now I am gone again. If I don't have anything better to do, I will find something to do. Use this site , then leave. IM,Humble O.

Yeah, I think this is original to Mormonism?

Yes. The fake and made up angels and devils, the stories and stumbles, dreams and diaries, changes and coverups, the Tithings and TAKINGS.

It's not original but JS, Jr. found-made a way to get what he wanted, no matter what it took.

He was a crook

JS said Quakers that are over 6 feet tall inhabit the moon and BY said that the sun is also inhabited by people. Gives a whole new twist to “ heartburn”.