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The local missionaries walked by our house just as I was getting out of my car. I shouted out across the street to them, "Hey are you Mormons?" They said they were.
(I always hated that question as a Missionary, because of the abuse I was likely to suffer after I heard that, but it makes me empathize with them and want to skip the small talk and get right to the point.)
I said, "Are you still selling that bullshit made up by that sexual predator Joseph Smith?"
They came walking towards me so I wouldn't be shouting about sexual abuse in the street and said when they got closer, "Uh, he wasn't a sexual predator."
I said, "Really? Have you read In Sacred Loneliness? I've got it in my house. Wanna see it?"
The obviously senior missionary, obviously wanting to protect his young trainee from hearing anything about Joseph's sexual indiscretions, said, "Why are you so angry?"
I said, "Well, because I used to be a MORmON. In fact, 5 generations of my family going clear back to the old country were Mormon. NEVER in my entire 40 years in the church did I EVER hear a word about ANY other relationship Joseph had with a woman, other than Emma Smith. Turns out, now the church published a paper saying he had at least 34 wives, 11 of whom were married to his followers and another 11 of whom were teenageers as young as 14. I've got a whole book inside, written by a Mormon History Professor named Todd Compton. It's very well written and even more well documented and cross referenced. That book didn't exist back when I was a missionary. But now it does. Have you bothered to even read it?
The Sr. Comp tried to change the subject, again, "Why are you so interested in this? What we choose to focus on is the love of Christ."
If that were true you'd have some empathy for the victims of the Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They're despicable human beings. They're no better than Warren Jeffs, who's rotting in jail for the rest of his life on child rape convictions. How is Joseph Smith ANY different from Warren Jeffs?
The Sr. Comp again brought up how angry I was.
I said, "Yeah, well, I know of at least 10 cases of child rape that were covered up by your church. Those victims were friends of mine and family members, so yeah, it kinda pisses me off when I see representatives of the abusive Doomsday CULT walking down my street normalizing that kind of abuse by,
#1. Going around claiming a child rapist is worthy of our praises and sacrifices, like you being out here on a mission. THat's a huge sacrifice, I know. I was a missionary. I'm telling you right now someday you're going to discover that every word I've said is true. That day can be today if you want to come in and look at the book I have sitting on my shelf.
Right then the Sr. Missionary tried to shake my hand.
When I told him I didn't shake hands with total strangers, and especially not ones who represented the abusive cult that preyed upon my friends and family
#2. You refuse to hear the truth about it.
THey just said, "Have a good day."
And turned around and left
And never came back to my neighborhood.
(I always hated that question as a Missionary, because of the abuse I was likely to suffer after I heard that, but it makes me empathize with them and want to skip the small talk and get right to the point.)
I said, "Are you still selling that bullshit made up by that sexual predator Joseph Smith?"
They came walking towards me so I wouldn't be shouting about sexual abuse in the street and said when they got closer, "Uh, he wasn't a sexual predator."
I said, "Really? Have you read In Sacred Loneliness? I've got it in my house. Wanna see it?"
The obviously senior missionary, obviously wanting to protect his young trainee from hearing anything about Joseph's sexual indiscretions, said, "Why are you so angry?"
I said, "Well, because I used to be a MORmON. In fact, 5 generations of my family going clear back to the old country were Mormon. NEVER in my entire 40 years in the church did I EVER hear a word about ANY other relationship Joseph had with a woman, other than Emma Smith. Turns out, now the church published a paper saying he had at least 34 wives, 11 of whom were married to his followers and another 11 of whom were teenageers as young as 14. I've got a whole book inside, written by a Mormon History Professor named Todd Compton. It's very well written and even more well documented and cross referenced. That book didn't exist back when I was a missionary. But now it does. Have you bothered to even read it?
The Sr. Comp tried to change the subject, again, "Why are you so interested in this? What we choose to focus on is the love of Christ."
If that were true you'd have some empathy for the victims of the Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They're despicable human beings. They're no better than Warren Jeffs, who's rotting in jail for the rest of his life on child rape convictions. How is Joseph Smith ANY different from Warren Jeffs?
The Sr. Comp again brought up how angry I was.
I said, "Yeah, well, I know of at least 10 cases of child rape that were covered up by your church. Those victims were friends of mine and family members, so yeah, it kinda pisses me off when I see representatives of the abusive Doomsday CULT walking down my street normalizing that kind of abuse by,
#1. Going around claiming a child rapist is worthy of our praises and sacrifices, like you being out here on a mission. THat's a huge sacrifice, I know. I was a missionary. I'm telling you right now someday you're going to discover that every word I've said is true. That day can be today if you want to come in and look at the book I have sitting on my shelf.
Right then the Sr. Missionary tried to shake my hand.
When I told him I didn't shake hands with total strangers, and especially not ones who represented the abusive cult that preyed upon my friends and family
#2. You refuse to hear the truth about it.
THey just said, "Have a good day."
And turned around and left
And never came back to my neighborhood.
It pays to use some wisdom in these situations. I am not saying that you are wrong for doing what you did. I have done the same with some missionaries myself. At the same time, despite how I feel at times, I try to befriend the missionaries. They are like I once was. You can also be much more effective at stripping away their so-called 'testimony' if they see and understand who you are without the venom.
It's not that I don't feel the anger myself. I do. But the anger outside of a context that they can understand comes across as anti-social. So I try to remember what my mission was like while honestly sharing the flaws of their religion and what kind of damage that religion did to me. They will actually listen to you and want to understand. And when they do, it'll cause them to feel bad about their religion. They'll fill-in the blanks that you didn't cover with their own knowledge and experiences as they try to connect socially with you. It'll be the start of reason prevailing over false testimony.
The winner isn't necessarily the most passionate one. It's the one who can't be moved by what the other person says. You know what they believe. You might even still be capable of teaching their discussions from memory yourself. What better advantage could one possibly have? If this were a game of poker, you can clearly see every card in their hand and they know nothing about you except for what you choose to tell them about yourself. Be nice to them and then silently go for the jugular. When they bear their testimonies, let them know you don't buy it but that you're going to humor them by not losing respect for them after they lied to you. Let them know that you once spoke the same lies and that you regret it now in retrospect. But still be nice to them. If you do this correctly, you may briefly see their doubt in their own eyes. They will remember you and this moment later.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2020 09:54PM by azsteve.
It's not that I don't feel the anger myself. I do. But the anger outside of a context that they can understand comes across as anti-social. So I try to remember what my mission was like while honestly sharing the flaws of their religion and what kind of damage that religion did to me. They will actually listen to you and want to understand. And when they do, it'll cause them to feel bad about their religion. They'll fill-in the blanks that you didn't cover with their own knowledge and experiences as they try to connect socially with you. It'll be the start of reason prevailing over false testimony.
The winner isn't necessarily the most passionate one. It's the one who can't be moved by what the other person says. You know what they believe. You might even still be capable of teaching their discussions from memory yourself. What better advantage could one possibly have? If this were a game of poker, you can clearly see every card in their hand and they know nothing about you except for what you choose to tell them about yourself. Be nice to them and then silently go for the jugular. When they bear their testimonies, let them know you don't buy it but that you're going to humor them by not losing respect for them after they lied to you. Let them know that you once spoke the same lies and that you regret it now in retrospect. But still be nice to them. If you do this correctly, you may briefly see their doubt in their own eyes. They will remember you and this moment later.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2020 09:54PM by azsteve.
Well that’s one way to get them to leave you alone for sure! I can’t say I blame you really; I’ve driven past mormon buildings and given it the finger. I’d have done the same at the time even if mormons had been gathered outside.
How long since you left and are you in Utah?
The time I was most furious in my entire life was when I found out my family had arranged for my daughter to go to the mormon church whilst she was at university and suffering with depression. I wrote an email to my family, telling them if they succeeded in their plan to convert her again after I’d rescued her from their cult, then I swore on my fathers grave I’d never speak to them again for the rest of my life.
It’s not something I can apologise for because I meant it.
The problem is, that now they can - and do - hold that against me. And anything I now say isn’t viewed as having any validity. To them I am a mormon hater and that’s why I left, because I’m just full of anger.
I believe that with mormons, it’s the same as with narcissists, in that anything you do say, can and will be used against you. I’ve decided to never communicate properly with my family again, because whatever I do I cannot win. Everything is a double bind where I’m damned if I do, and damned if I don’t.
Of course these are just missionaries you don’t know. But generally if we do want to get through to them, the anger has to go. And if and when that isn’t possible, I steer well clear - but for my own sake :-)
How long since you left and are you in Utah?
The time I was most furious in my entire life was when I found out my family had arranged for my daughter to go to the mormon church whilst she was at university and suffering with depression. I wrote an email to my family, telling them if they succeeded in their plan to convert her again after I’d rescued her from their cult, then I swore on my fathers grave I’d never speak to them again for the rest of my life.
It’s not something I can apologise for because I meant it.
The problem is, that now they can - and do - hold that against me. And anything I now say isn’t viewed as having any validity. To them I am a mormon hater and that’s why I left, because I’m just full of anger.
I believe that with mormons, it’s the same as with narcissists, in that anything you do say, can and will be used against you. I’ve decided to never communicate properly with my family again, because whatever I do I cannot win. Everything is a double bind where I’m damned if I do, and damned if I don’t.
Of course these are just missionaries you don’t know. But generally if we do want to get through to them, the anger has to go. And if and when that isn’t possible, I steer well clear - but for my own sake :-)
Everything you said was right.
If it didn't involve child abuse, maybe there could be some room for leeway - but on that issue, no one should give an inch.
If a person won't get angry about this issue, something is wrong with them, not you.
That was what showed me everything the Mormon church members say. about themselves and how wonderful they think they are isn't true - no good people allow child abuse. And the child abuse that polygamy caused was passed down through the generations from the start and caused unbelievable harm.
If it didn't involve child abuse, maybe there could be some room for leeway - but on that issue, no one should give an inch.
If a person won't get angry about this issue, something is wrong with them, not you.
That was what showed me everything the Mormon church members say. about themselves and how wonderful they think they are isn't true - no good people allow child abuse. And the child abuse that polygamy caused was passed down through the generations from the start and caused unbelievable harm.
Yes, anger doesn't get you very far.
But...
Even if you AREN'T angry, they will attribute your inability to agree with them as "anger," and they won't listen. "You're just angry, and you're trying to hide it."
But...
Even if you AREN'T angry, they will attribute your inability to agree with them as "anger," and they won't listen. "You're just angry, and you're trying to hide it."
Remind me not to piss you off.
Maybe you would have more luck trying the whole “What if ‘God’ was just ‘nature’? argument.
+1
oxymormon Wrote:
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> Maybe you would have more luck trying the whole
> “What if ‘God’ was just ‘nature’?
> argument.
What the fuck has luck got to do with it?
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> Maybe you would have more luck trying the whole
> “What if ‘God’ was just ‘nature’?
> argument.
What the fuck has luck got to do with it?
Well, if your God is nature, quite a bit actually.
Oh oh oh, what's luck got to do, got to do with it
What's luck but a secondhand revelation
Whats luck got to do, got to do with it
Who needs a church when a church leaves you broken
What's luck but a secondhand revelation
Whats luck got to do, got to do with it
Who needs a church when a church leaves you broken
There is a God. I thought that song when I read his response but for life of me I couldn't think of a good wording. You nailed it.
Elder Berry Wrote:
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> Well, if your God is nature, quite a bit actually.
"When I use the word, "god", I mean it in thee same way Einstein used it, in the impersonal sense of the word, to mean, the laws that govern nature, as in, 'I want to know the mind of god.' So to know the mind of god is to know the laws that govern nature." Hawking
I use the word the way Hawking and Einstein defined it.
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> Well, if your God is nature, quite a bit actually.
"When I use the word, "god", I mean it in thee same way Einstein used it, in the impersonal sense of the word, to mean, the laws that govern nature, as in, 'I want to know the mind of god.' So to know the mind of god is to know the laws that govern nature." Hawking
I use the word the way Hawking and Einstein defined it.
Even with all three of you explaining it I still don't understand what you are saying nor do I think it differs much from luck, fate, chance, randomness, quantum quirkiness, strange attractors, or how much I suck at Yahtzee.
But I'm sure with enough repetition I'll eventually get it or at least be assimilated.
But I'm sure with enough repetition I'll eventually get it or at least be assimilated.
> But I'm sure with enough repetition I'll
> eventually get it or at least be assimilated.
Now you're gettin' it.
> eventually get it or at least be assimilated.
Now you're gettin' it.
If any of us want a true assessment we need to ask for it from someone who is clear thinking and logical.
Missionaries are not mature clear thinkers.
Missionaries are not mature clear thinkers.
Cheryl Wrote:
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> If any of us want a true assessment we need to ask
> for it from someone who is clear thinking and
> logical.
>
> Missionaries are not mature clear thinkers.
They are adults. They're old enough to send off to war and defend our freedoms, but not old enough to Google "wives of Joseph Smith"?
-------------------------------------------------------
> If any of us want a true assessment we need to ask
> for it from someone who is clear thinking and
> logical.
>
> Missionaries are not mature clear thinkers.
They are adults. They're old enough to send off to war and defend our freedoms, but not old enough to Google "wives of Joseph Smith"?
But they are not mature enough to have their counsel and personal evaluations be given major interest or consideration.
in b 4 ~ mebe the mormon missionaries are on to something ~
ziller Wrote:
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> in b 4 ~ mebe the mormon missionaries are on to
> something ~
Or maybe they're enabling sexual abuse by going around trying to convince people to sing the praises of a rapist.
Take your pick.
Yeah, I'm angry about ongoing abuse and rape, that's rampant in the Mormon CULT in my experience. And Mormons enable it by protecting the abusers and silencing the victims. If that doesn't make you angry, you're not just crazy, you're enabling it to continue.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2020 02:54PM by schrodingerscat.
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> in b 4 ~ mebe the mormon missionaries are on to
> something ~
Or maybe they're enabling sexual abuse by going around trying to convince people to sing the praises of a rapist.
Take your pick.
Yeah, I'm angry about ongoing abuse and rape, that's rampant in the Mormon CULT in my experience. And Mormons enable it by protecting the abusers and silencing the victims. If that doesn't make you angry, you're not just crazy, you're enabling it to continue.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2020 02:54PM by schrodingerscat.
I don't remember that missionary discussion...hmm where is the sexual predator, er I mean pedophile, er, wrong again I mean child rapist discussion?
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng
"Most of those sealed to Joseph Smith were between 20 and 40 years of age at the time of their sealing to him. The oldest, Fanny Young, was 56 years old. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph’s close friends Heber C. and Vilate Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday. Marriage at such an age, inappropriate by today’s standards, was legal in that era, and some women married in their mid-teens."
"Following his marriage to Louisa Beaman and before he married other single women, Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women who were already married."
Estimates of the number of these sealings range from 12 to 14. (See Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997], 4, 6; Hales, Joseph Smith’s Polygamy, 1:253–76, 303–48.) For an early summary of this practice, see John A. Widtsoe, “Evidences and Reconciliations: Did Joseph Smith Introduce Plural Marriage?” Improvement Era 49, no. 11 (Nov. 1946): 766–67.
"Most of those sealed to Joseph Smith were between 20 and 40 years of age at the time of their sealing to him. The oldest, Fanny Young, was 56 years old. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph’s close friends Heber C. and Vilate Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday. Marriage at such an age, inappropriate by today’s standards, was legal in that era, and some women married in their mid-teens."
"Following his marriage to Louisa Beaman and before he married other single women, Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women who were already married."
Estimates of the number of these sealings range from 12 to 14. (See Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997], 4, 6; Hales, Joseph Smith’s Polygamy, 1:253–76, 303–48.) For an early summary of this practice, see John A. Widtsoe, “Evidences and Reconciliations: Did Joseph Smith Introduce Plural Marriage?” Improvement Era 49, no. 11 (Nov. 1946): 766–67.
They definitely should add that to their temple discussions.
Interesting point about enabling. I had it suggested to me by a friend yesterday that by trying to make things work and by being nice, it could be almost like enabling mormons and their behaviour, just like the relative of an addict often unwittingly does. That’s something that will stick in my mind now, aka I will be mindful of it. I’m now pondering what behaviours might be enabling ones. It could be that no contact is the only way to be sure...
Well, ya know... They're Never Wrong...