https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/17/837698597/opposing-forced-church-closures-becomes-new-religious-freedom-cause?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=nprblogscoronavirusliveupdates

State and local restrictions on religious gatherings, introduced as measures to prevent the spread of the coronavirus, have emerged as a top religious freedom issue and prompted a flurry of new lawsuits charging that such measures violate the First Amendment or state religious freedom statutes....
....In the New Mexico case, the church argued that religious institutions should not be subject to more restrictions than those imposed on essential businesses. In an order handed down Friday evening, the court denied the church's motion. "The public's interest in limiting the COVID-19 outbreak in the state, a compelling interest, outweighs the right to gather," the court concluded.

For the moment, the controversy over whether governments can restrict religious gatherings has taken priority over other religious freedom cases, which have more often centered on individuals or groups citing religious beliefs for their opposition to same-sex marriage, LGBTQ rights or artificial contraception.

Attending church during a pandemic is about as dumb as snake handling.

Actually, maybe dumber.

Yes, snake handlers rarely endanger others. Getting infected by a virus that doesn't manifest until significantly after it becomes communicable, conversely, directly threatens others. It is more egocentric, more selfish than handling vipers.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, snake handlers rarely endanger others.
> Getting infected by a virus that doesn't manifest
> until significantly after it becomes communicable,
> conversely, directly threatens others. It is more
> egocentric, more selfish than handling vipers.

I was in Hawaii a month ago.
At the time they only had 1 case of Corona on Maui, where we were staying. The day after we got there the Governor issued an order to not come to Hawaii, for 30 days, and if you chose to come anyway, you'd have to undergo a 14 Day mandatory Quarantine. And if you violated the quarantine order you were subject to a $5k fine and up to a year in jail. They also shut down all the State Parks and Beaches and imposed a Stay At Home Order.
The next day the Mayor of Maui shut down the remainder of the Beaches and parks.
Now there is a Curfew and if you violate the Stay At Home order to go out for a non-essential purpose, they stop you at a periodic road black, write you a ticket and/or arrest you.

"Other rule changes that started 11 p.m. Friday include:

— Only allowing two members of a household to leave home for essential activities, unless other household members absolutely cannot be left home alone, such as young children, elderly and people with disabilities.

— Requiring businesses to limit entrance to two people from one household, unless other household members absolutely must accompany them.

— Requiring essential businesses with employees that have direct public contact or handle food to wear a mask or other face covering. Employers also shall allow employees to voluntarily wear masks or face coverings.

— Only allowing bed and breakfast homes and short-term rental homes to operate as housing for essential workers.

A violation of the emergency rules is a misdemeanor carrying a penalty of up to one year in jail and up to a $5,000 fine. Those cited are given a date to appear in court."

https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2020/04/roving-roadblocks-halt-drivers-saturday-maui-sees-biggest-covid-19-spike/

If we were smart, we'd make this the national law and enforce it.

the courts (judges) Can't go too far away from the literal application of the actual words (expressed intent of authors) of the constitution, I think Oaks would agree with me (SHEESH!)


the words / intent of the U.S. Constitution are the bedrock of legal decisions; and:

lower court decisions don't set precedence like appeals courts do; a wise appeals court in the matter cited would refuse to consider that case, appeals courts have lots of discretion as to which appeals to consider, which not to.

So the appeals court should let the lower court decision stand?

If the trial court dismissed the lawsuit of those opposing restrictions, Yes, in the public interest.

Reading court especially appellate decisions is often a bit tricky because (among other reasons) the appeals court sometimes re-names the parties as appellant & appellee. Who prevails in an appeal (often partially upheld, partly denied) requires close attention.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2020 10:10PM by GNPE.

I am comfortable reading appellate decisions.

Your post was a little confusing because the constitution as written brooks no contravention of the freedom to assemble or to worship at will. The established interpretation of the BoR, however, does permit public safety exemptions. So it wasn't clear whether you were arguing in favor of, or against, short-term restrictions on the freedom of religion.

The appellate court, of course, can't decide out of thin air whether to hear the case or not because those decisions too are subject to precedent. Even a choice not to consider the case could accordingly be appealed up the ladder.

In this instance I agree with you on the merits. The prevailing interpretative rules are clear: the restrictions are reasonable. If a lower court reached that decision an appellate authority may feel compelled to review it simply because of its constitutional import, but there too I think the state would prevail.

To me, one of the stunning surprises of this pandemic we are all living through has been the totally unexpected malleability of observant Jewish laws--to both include observant Jews (and all Jews, regardless of their usual observance level, who are mourning recent deaths which have occurred), and--simultaneously--to adhere to the scientific, legal, and common sense restrictions on how people "gather" and behave with each other during this time.

Passover (one of the most important annual observances in normative Jewish life) was April 8-April 16 this year--and many Jews participated in online Passover seders (dinners, with special Passover foods, which are actually a worship service told in the form of a biblical story).

Before this year, I had never even heard of an online Passover seder as an improbable, fantastical possibility....yet this year, even lone Jews in far-flung places away from their homes, could participate online.

Daily minyans [a minyan is a group of a minimum of ten Jews--either all males, or males and females, depending on the minyan involved, all of whom are age 13 or over--are necessary for the three times a day [morning, afternoon, evening] prayers which include Kaddish [the Jewish prayer for the dead]:

As of this year, and at least so far as of this pandemic situation goes (I had never heard of this before), online participation counts in whether a minyan does or does not exist--so daily prayers are being prayed within online minyanim, instead of by the (minimum of) ten Jews who are physically with each other, in the same place, at the same time.

Regular Jewish worship services (Friday nights and Saturdays), from congregations across the Jewish spectrum, are being "participated in" online--often with the rabbi, the cantor, and perhaps a very few other Jews officiating....in an otherwise empty synagogue, or in some other indoor place.

I saw a video on You Tube yesterday about the New York, Crown Heights (EXTREMELY OBSERVANT!!), Jews who are utilizing some very creative (and Jewishly kosher) ways of burying and mourning their newly dead (Jewish custom/law is to surround those most directly affected by those deaths with the physical support and closeness of others)....and the Crown Heights Jews are also having "Drive By" weddings, with cars of "guests" honking, and their passengers yelling out congratulations, to the getting-married couple--yet no one is violating the secular emergency laws now in place.

If highly-observant Jews (who must balance actual Jewish religious laws with current secular laws) can do this, so can other religions as well.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2020 07:32AM by Tevai.

> If highly-observant Jews (who must balance actual
> Jewish laws with current secular laws) can do
> this, so can other religions as well.

Not all religions can. Judaism has, by recurrent necessity, developed the ability to adjust to circumstances in many ways. Moreover there is not a central hierarchy or a priesthood with tight control over the holy rites. I'm quite sure this pandemic requires less radical adjustments than some historical events have.

Mormonism, by contrast, is rigidly based on a hierarchy with exclusive control over rites that must be observed with regularity and in the presence of designated authorities. Weekly meetings and sacrament are one thing, baptisms and especially temple weddings and other ceremonies another. There is some flexibility, to be sure, but not as much as in most Jewish (or Catholic or Protestant) congregations.

I therefore think it possible that two or three months of "quarantine lite" will loosen the bonds of LDS power. Not only has God failed to spare the church, to an unprecedented temporal and spacial extent he must be worshiped beyond the ambit of priesthood authority. It will be interesting to see what that means for future activity.

Good points, LW.

Thank you!

:)

I don’t think this is about church power. It’s about ultra conservatism combined with a mistrust of government that’s exacerbated by Mormon end times ideology.

Ultra conservatives would rather let nature take its course as it did with the Hong Kong flu, which killed 1 to 4 million people in 1968. COVID19 is about on that order.

But we don’t live in a 1968 world. First of all, stopping the economy 2020 style would have been out of the question in 1968 because it was a different economy. There would have been real scarcity.

Second, the rise of secularism has raised our death aversion to unprecedented levels. The levers of power are in the hands of old people. Old people rule the roost because medical technology has allowed them to live longer. They can afford it. So when a disease comes along that kills the elderly, they will take extraordinary measures for self preservation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2020 12:01PM by bradley.

> I don’t think this is about church power. It’s
> about ultra conservatism combined with a mistrust
> of government that’s exacerbated by Mormon end
> times ideology.

You missed my point. I was not talking about the causes of the present situation but about its possible consequences for the church.


----------------
> Ultra conservatives would rather let nature take
> its course as it did with the Hong Kong flu, which
> killed 1 to 4 million people in 1968. COVID19 is
> about on that order.

What basis do you have for the proposition that this virus, unchecked by quarantine or medical remedy, would only kill "1 to 4 million people?"


-----------------
> Second, the rise of secularism has raised our
> death aversion to unprecedented levels.

What is the basis for your assertion that secular people fear death more than religious ones?


-----------------
> The levers
> of power are in the hands of old people. Old
> people rule the roost because medical technology
> has allowed them to live longer. They can afford
> it. So when a disease comes along that kills the
> elderly, they will take extraordinary measures for
> self preservation.

Can you point to a time when old people were not disproportionately powerful in society and during which pandemics did not disproportionately kill them?

Some days are more conjecture ridden than others. I try to hope for the best even when it’s not very realistic. Maybe I should work for Trump.

The church’s behavior in the midst of the pandemic is puzzling. It’s almost like they want people to leave. The Mormons I know feel like they’re on their own. They also know the church has a huge rainy day fund. The rain is coming down in buckets. It doesn’t look good. However, Mormons thrive on persecution. They might be gluttons for punishment.

The virus is going to have a long tail as well as a bump when lockdown ends. It has a real foothold in the US. The church may be closed for many more months. Will this really shake loose that many members? What if they only want to retain the truly brainwashed? Then doing nothing makes sense. They only need enough people to keep milking tax exempt status. Tithes are a nice bonus but aren’t needed.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some days are more conjecture ridden than others.
> I try to hope for the best even when it’s not
> very realistic. Maybe I should work for Trump.
>
> The church’s behavior in the midst of the
> pandemic is puzzling. It’s almost like they want
> people to leave. The Mormons I know feel like
> they’re on their own. They also know the church
> has a huge rainy day fund. The rain is coming down
> in buckets. It doesn’t look good. However,
> Mormons thrive on persecution. They might be
> gluttons for punishment.
>
> The virus is going to have a long tail as well as
> a bump when lockdown ends. It has a real foothold
> in the US. The church may be closed for many more
> months. Will this really shake loose that many
> members? What if they only want to retain the
> truly brainwashed? Then doing nothing makes sense.
> They only need enough people to keep milking tax
> exempt status. Tithes are a nice bonus but
> aren’t needed.

LDS Inc chose to become a business when they renounced Polygamy back in the late 19th Century and again when they allowed blacks to enter their temples and have the priesthood. They've become an amazingly successful business model other less wealthy churches would love to copy if they could.
I don't think they're stupid. They're just evil.
It's evil to demand 10% of a war widow's pension, when she's left to survive on a pittance, meanwhile they're living high on the hog and have a bank account worth $100Billion, for what?
A GD Welcome Home Party for Jesus?
Who ain't coming back any time soon, since he missed the last 10 predicted appointments. (and all the ones before that)

And then there are (badwords) like this. One parishioner dead (but he knows better than the coroner). His lawyer is in the hospital with it, but gee, he is so sorry about all the people he may have infected. https://www.newsweek.com/louisiana-megachurch-pastor-says-parishioner-did-not-die-coronavirus-despite-what-coroner-says-1498444

Oh and BTW, you know that money the government is giving us for food and bills? You should be sending it to him!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE6B9Mmvpyo

Oh yeah!!
Uses anything available to start a crusade!!
Why? Because Crusades make MONEY for the leaders

“No price is too great to pay if it results in added convenience for me!”




Your Life

v.

My Convenience

equals

“Let’s change the subject. Besides, if dolphins were really smart, they wouldn’t get caught in tuna nets!”

Churches will be meeting in many places in the next week or so. Restaurants, gyms, salons, retail stores will open. If people want to pack into a church, it would be fine if it weren’t for the fact that they’ll be circulating in the broader community. Otherwise it would be fine to just let natural selection take its course.

But it puts the responsibility on us individually to distance ourselves. As more things open, I will secluded myself even more until I feel good about the stats. Just because I CAN go to church, get a haircut, eat at a restaurant, doesn’t mean I have to. I’d say let them die in the name of God and thin out the goober herd, but I can’t because of the medical professionals it puts in harm’s way. But we can do our best to protect ourselves and our families.

NormaRae, I'm so glad that I live in a state with a sane governor (Hogan of Maryland.) He will not start to reopen until it's safe to do so. I've given up on the people who just don't get it, and the governors who just don't get it.

And I agree with you, even after we start to reopen, I will be very cautious about going out.

We will keep doing the same things we have been doing too. My country has few cases but the next county over is a real hot spot. To get tested you have to have symptoms and be high risk so there is really no way to know how many have it/had it. CA, OR and WA are all hanging together and being sane. Because of the way some states have handled this we will be staying here for retirement.

Many people in the northeast retire to Florida, and I'll bet a lot of them are rethinking that. I know that I am seeing Florida in a different light.

I'd rather live in a country where protests are ALLOWED

than live in one where they aren't allowed...


just sayin'

But the protesters are bringing guns.

Now I know why America has a second amendment and all these guns. It’s so we can shoot ourselves in the foot.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the protesters are bringing guns.
>
> Now I know why America has a second amendment and
> all these guns. It’s so we can shoot ourselves
> in the foot.


I'm not worried about guns. I'm worried about drones.
Guns are no match for drones.
The government has drones, courtesy of China and mass warrant-less surveillance.

It doesn't need guns.

In the age of the drones, it's game over.

Yeah. There is a fine line between exercising your Second Amendment rights and being in a paramilitary thug squad.

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah. There is a fine line between exercising your
> Second Amendment rights and being in a
> paramilitary thug squad.

true, but I wonder who the Thug Squad really is, when the Covidiot Zombie Horde ends up in the ICU all at the same time in 2 weeks, thanks to an invisible enemy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2020 07:05PM by schrodingerscat.