My niece has tattoos, a non-Mormon ex-husband she didn't marry in the temple, and her first child with her boyfriend.

All wonderful things. I'm glad she has a baby now. Word is she wanted one with her ex and it didn't work out.

But she posted a gushing post about how important The Priesthood is and that all of her brothers and father have it. And it is so special that they honor this priesthood and were able to bless her baby.

I don't know if she is inactive but I just get annoyed by all this crap about priesthood. I guess it might be because I didn't baptize my kids but my wife's family stepped in and took care of that. And additionally I might be annoyed because there is a way to be that is supportive of the church (which I will never be) and yet nonconformist?

I don't know. I have another niece who is bisexual and brings her girlfriend to family functions. And she gushes about LDS Inc. at times on the facebook.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2020 01:38PM by Elder Berry.

I sense it might make you feel a bit better if you knew why this annoys you. Maybe the question is also, how on earth do these people think(?)I’m not sure why but it has annoyed me too in the past. Had a friend in ysa who I tried to reactivate many times and she just wasn’t interested/ couldn’t live the lifestyle. So when I left I turned to her for support; lo and behold she defended the church and blanked me out. I was seriously like: “WTF?!”

There was a family in the ward who were a bit jack mormon. They were converts and despite their ways considered themselves to be wonderful. It’s as if the cult stuff bypasses their brains or something. One daughter was the same age as mine and used to come to church and YWs dressed in skimpy stuff, had piercings and was dating as early as 13; yet she thought she was better than my good as gold innocent child and even bullied her somewhat. I know what you’re referring to I think. The mind boggles! These people don’t comprehend the dark side of Mormonism because they don’t care. It’s an opposite mindset that somehow seems to sit relatively comfortably with the TBMs. It’s us they have an issue with. What does this say? Mormons hate thinking people with goodness and integrity more than they hate the obvious “sinners”. These people can be saved and shaped, and they make the mormons feel good about themselves.

Perhaps this gives some insight: Before I was a mormon I was once sitting in the garden of my boyfriends parents (mormon family). I was there with my boyfriend and his friend. My boyfriend had been inactive for about fifteen years, was an alcoholic and drug addict and frequently raged about his Bishop father, church, family etc. His friend was non mormon and was less hardcore addict, his background like mine was typical for a British person in that we had been Church of England. Anyway, because we were at his parents place the topic of the mormon church came up and his friend mocked it saying it was so obviously a cult. I couldn’t believe my ears because my bf said: “F*** you, if there is a true church on this earth then my parents church is It!”

Ironically it was eventually because of him that I joined the mormon church. He didn’t give a crap about it but he wanted to come back just as a way of getting me to marry him as he knew I’d had enough of his abuse. I just think some people gush about the church because it suits them at the time.
It backfired on him because I kicked him out and got baptised instead. He responded to that by becoming a heroin addict and blaming me for it. This meant my daughter grew up without a father. But he would have come back if I’d been willing to allow him to continue to abuse me. I later found out that during his golden ‘sober’ investigation time he was secretly doing drugs and gambled all my money away; yet he’d been coming to church and paying it lip service. Apparently I wasn’t worth treating well but I was worth deceiving by any means necessary. And for the first and only time in his (now) 50+ years he was welcomed back into the family and the church. So there are some people who defend the church who at the same time don’t care about it.

But I think we are thinking about this incorrectly. It actually makes more sense that people who are not particularly nice would defend the mormon church... Because the mormon church is not nice. I’m a member of a huge online abuse recovery group and one of the things I’ve heard said there, is that the most abusive people (and systems) are the nuggets of gold, that when you scratch the surface are actually nuggets of poop. (Just thought I’d throw that in!)

I’m not saying that everyone is bad, just that all sorts defend the mormons. They are probably thinking of themselves rather than thinking at all, period. Irritating at the best of times.

I also look back on that and I just think, these people were completely brainwashed as children and really don’t know any different. To them if there is any refuge in the world or if religion is a real thing, the Only place to find it is with the mormons. We left because we managed to get our brains rewired. Some people leave because they don’t care and/or they want to do other stuff. And maybe they come back because it suits them. IMO they don’t genuinely care about it because it’s just not in their personality to be that way.

Whereas people like us might have been devout at one point and it almost destroys us to learn it’s not true. Our eyes are open. Theirs might never be because they just do whatever (?) And it’s irritating because they are unaffected either way whereas we suffered so much in it and now again outside of it.

Tbh those people who are blaze about everything annoy me anyway! Those are just thoughts that came into my head and hope I didn’t misunderstand:-)

Great thoughts. I wonder if the cult vs religion thing is where this really falls. Religions are full of fakery and fawning about metaphysical things. Cults are obvious cons that push the adherence limit in our more pluralistic world. But there is no real handle on it like porn. We know it because we see it but others think that that Swimsuit edition is nice though it exploits woman as objects?

Well Jack mormons think it’s just religion, something they’re undecided on at best. It’s like they put it on hold for another day but naively think it’s all fine, just too strict. They don’t realise that if they were to become tbms they’d be part of a cult. This all works well for TBMs as some other good comments have said. A cult is really a whole lot different to a religion, you’re absolutely right. And i wonder if it infects the minds of jack Mormons too? But without damaging them. They’re worse in some ways than TBMs. We have to contend with apparent stupidity rather than evil mind tricks. But they’re supporting the cult.

They’re the people who shout out that the emperor really does have clothes on, but without even looking. At the same time they’re also running around naked, and know it too. But they don’t care because they foolishly think people will support them forever.

I think its a cultural shackle of mormonism some people can't get rid of. Stay's with them for life. The rub may be after being treated as the enemy in your own family, it may feel like you have a bit of a connection with someone that is outwardly completey counter to mormonism, but when asked/ pressed, the ball at the end of their chain keeps them in the mormon realm and you out.

I think they're afraid to take it off, lest they cut that cultural tie that binds them to what they know and what feels safe.

Roy G Biv Wrote:
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> I think they're afraid to take it off, lest they
> cut that cultural tie that binds them to what they
> know and what feels safe.

Probably. My nieces aren't about to fly without a safety net regardless of the benefits of doing so.

has been inactive since her teens. There are many things she has done including cheating on her second husband several times and then leaving him. She has had several boyfriends and cheats on them, too. I'd consider her a functional alcoholic. She drinks wine every night or all day now as she retired early and only works weekends (or not at all right now as it is the IRS she is working part time for).

She has HTs that bug her to death all the time. She won't do anything about them, although she can't stand them. It is an older couple. They have NO BOUNDARIES.

And then she posts things that the GAs say or about the temple, although she has never been "through" the temple etc. She has toured a temple once, Brigham City.

She told me she doesn't need to resign as she was never that invested in the church like I was. It doesn't bother her. Oh, except when my cousin her age who she never along with asked her to be friends on fb. She is with her husband on the tip of South America as the wife of an MP. My sister threw a fit when she asked to be friends and also when she ran into the holier than thou 2 girls she went to primary and mutual with.

But I'm the one with the problem.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2020 03:45PM by cl2.

cl2 Wrote:
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> But I'm the one with the problem.

I don't understand it. Where is the us/them line? People move the goal posts as it suits their moods.

until I just read that.

My younger brother has been inactive since his teens, but once he realized I no longer believed, he told me I had given him permission to let go. He thought he was just going to hell and there was no hope for him since he had sex when he was a teenager and had a son. I've posted that story. A very sad story as he never met his son, who was killed in an automobile accident 3 years ago. He has a grandson that he only found out about last fall and he is finally talking to his son's mother and they are working it out so he can see his grandson. But he wants to resign. He kept asking me for a while "you really don't believe???" I was the one all the siblings and even niece and nephews didn't think would ever leave. They are still in shock.

Jack Mormons are not to be confused with Exmos or even questioning or doubting Mormons. They are basically inactive TBMs who do not adhere to the strict obedience for whatever reason but still believe, believe, believe.

Being talked down to by a Jack is worse than being talked down to by a TBM LDS Mormon because there is no integrity involved whatsoever, while, the Active Mormons at least have a smidgeon of compromised integrity perhaps as they at least know a few apologetically baptized facts.

Extolling the church helps alleviate the guilt Jacks have over not living what they profess I would guess.

I've had some intense criticism from my siblings who have left the church. They are angry with me for disbelieving. They blame me for breaking my mother's heart. They won't hear one word against the church.

I think the brainwashing runs deep.

My sisters and I have history and we go for sometimes year without talking, but we had an argument about 6 weeks ago just before this whole COVID thing exploded. Her darling son got in touch with me and told me his mother needs me today.

So we talked and she has new "ministers" and they are at least as bad as the last set. They sent her a text to join in the worldwide fast the night before it happened and she drunk texted them and told them to leave her the hell alone and she wasn't going to fast. Said a few choice things about how many fasts does it take??? Then she accidentally clicked on a fb post about the fast as one of our old neighbors sent her an invite on fb to join in the fast and now she gets all kinds of posts about who they are fasting for now in the group. She said NOW she needs to do something about it.

Her son is not a mormon, has never been baptized, etc. His girlfriend was raised mormon, but is not active. Her very rich grandfather won't pay for her college education because she won't go to the singles ward (he doesn't like my nephew--who is a neat guy and HOT). They live together. Her grandfather doesn't know that. BUT she has taken a stand--she pays her own way through college when she could get it free. That takes a lot.

My sister said you have to get MEAN with the mormons.

I can tell you why it bugs me. I hate a hypocrite.

And the more blatant the hypocrisy, the greater the ire.

This type of display by Jack Mormons annoys me too. Besides the hypocrisy that Susan I/S mentions, I think it bugs me for a few other reasons.

It portrays the church to be softer and more gentle than it actually is. Bearing your testimony while not following any of the rules is sort of like saying, "I can do whatever I want and this wonderful church is always there to love and support me." We all know that's not how things actually work in the church. Rules in the LDS church are meant to be followed.

Also, most Exmos understand that there's a hefty price to be paid when you leave the church. Many lose relationships with family and friends and become second class citizens in their own homes. The Jack Mormon has essentially left the church, but as long as they keep bearing their testimonies in between breaking all the rules, they haven't paid the price. It feels very unfair to those of us who have been honest about the loss of our testimonies and in doing so have lost so much.

TBMs also see and treat Jack Mormons much differently than Exmos. TBMs see Jack Mormons as Mormons on a wayward path who can be rehabilitated. They're often tolerated and even embraced by TBMs who love a project. Exmos are often seen as angry and misguided by Satan. Exmos are a much greater challenge for a TBM. Once they realize that the mind of an Exmos can't be changed, they often cut off ties.

This is well put! I’ve noticed a hot cold cycle with tbm family members . They’re nice if they think there’s a slight chance of bringing me closer to ‘the light’. But if I’m saying or doing stuff they disapprove of I get cut off again, and where that’s not possible I get cold sarcastic remarks even in full view of other people. I’m tempted to play with them just for fun but I’m too exhausted. Mormons are so ridiculous that I just feel like this tired exasperation and I have to stay away from their collective mental illness.

It bothers me as well. Jack mormons bother me more than TBMs probably. I guess i would rather someone believe in something truly even if its wrong.

In my younger days I loved Jack Mormons, we'd go to the bar and drink beer and most of the time they'd pick up the tab.

I'd pick up the tab for the first round, maybe 4-5 in the group, one or two would join the group and they'd buy a round, pretty soon there'd be 15 people in the group and they'd all buy around. Pretty soon you'd have 6-8 bottles of beer in front of you.

Most of the time one of them would be nice enough to drive "the kid" home as there was no way I could find my car, let alone drive it.

But they all would argue that LDS was true. Good times.

When I was a proud John F. "Jack" Mormon, I knew the church was true, but also knew that I was not going to make it to the CK and I was accepting of that fate.

It was a CK church but I wasn't CK material. Simple as that.

John Fitzgerald Mormon Wrote:
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> It was a CK church but I wasn't CK material.
> Simple as that.

When I think of big lies this comes to the fore of my mind.

That is how Joseph worked his con and how it continues to this day. Put on a show of righteousness, have hard strict rules to live by, make it look like you are seeing angels and able to translate ancient documents while basically just being another person on this planet with a dark side you never acknowledge.

It is obvious the church isn't CK material but as long as people believe it their money rolls forth.

Jack Mormons irritated me as well until I got further into other religions. Most people who believe in them actually know very little about their own faith. Most have never even read their holy books even once.

What matters most is that the faith is familiar to them. It's like an old shoe with a hole. It's comfortable and worn in, even though it's not particularly useful.

The people on this board actually wanted to know the truth. TBMs and JMs don't care what the truth is. I think that's true for a lot of people in areas outside of religion as well. People have a set of ideas and they will cling to them regardless because comfort and custom matter more than efficiency or veracity.

Jack Mormons have the added benefit that when they do have contact with the church, it's usually fairly positive. Mormons love getting the "inactives" back in the pews and will be nice to them until it happens. If you just attend once every few months or years when it suits you, you're welcomed with open arms. Why would you want to leave under those circumstances?

Good points. Thanks!

"What matters most is that the faith is familiar to them. It's like an old shoe with a hole. It's comfortable and worn in, even though it's not particularly useful."

That is exactly what my sister acts like until they invade her space too much and then "it's not particularly useful."

It is familiar. She never believed it.

To me, I saw my dad as more connected to mormonism because it was his ancestry. He was what I'd consider more of a jack mormon EXCEPT he didn't ever tell me, "I know this church is true." EVER. When my mom died and he was close to dying, he was buying into it more and hoped I'd go back, told my daughter to continue going. I say "Thanks Dad!" She'll carry that with her the rest of her life.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2020 09:28AM by cl2.

There are two issues when it comes to any religion. One is how an individual handles their dealings with others and what they represent to others. The other is how the individual handles their relationship with themselves and with god.

When I was an active church member, I didn't concern myself with how another person handled their relationship with god unless I was somehow involved also. People are imperfect. They need opportunities to learn. None of us knows everything about another person's life. So I didn't judge people who didn't live their religion if I observed conflicts in someone else's life that didn't involve me unless I saw them doing real harm to the life of someone else.

But when I was active in the church, I expected others to be honest and fair with me as I was honest and fair with them. I believed then that there was a social contract between church members that dictated honesty and fairness to others. There is NOT any such agreement. The church doesn't support it. It doesn't exist. This is the primary reason why I resigned from the church. The church should have an obligation to expect their members to treat eachother and non-members also, with honesty and respect and fairness. When it comes to god, I don't need the church or its ordinances, not if the price is to perpetuate a system that harms the lives of others and that causes them to be dishonest with me or that encourages me to harm others. Most church members aren't capable of critical thinking enough to figure this out. They learn to lie to their Bishop to fit in. They lie similarly to others. Eventually, they lie to themselves. They learn to have no real core values that really matter because they have been lieing to everyone for so long, that they don't even know who they themselves are anymore. They are taught through experience and expectations to not know right from wrong. The church clearly doesn't care about this. Everyone who contributes their minuscule part to the $100B+ church net worth and who doesn't embarrass the church too greatly gets a free pass when it comes to the harm that they cause to others.

When others live in conflict against church dogma and break the church rules but they are generally good people who feel normal levels of empathy towards others and who can be honest in a relationship with you, that is normal. If there are some conflicts in their lives that put them at odds with some of the church rules, that doesn't bother me. If they want to lie to me about who they are or about what they want, that can be difficult to tolerate. If they choose not to discuss things with me that I don't need to know about, that is okay with me. When they choose to lie to me about who they are or what they believe, it can be obvious that Mormonism has infected their lives. It's not so offensive when you simply attribute the issue to what it really is. But if their lack of real morality stands to harm you, you should sever ties with them. You need to use critical thinking.

Put simply, Jack Mormons don't bother me. I don't really care if someone wants to teach Sunday school and then go home and get drunk afterward. Jack Mormons that bring real harm to my life won't be welcome in my life and I have a problem with them. I reserve the right to decide who I consider to be a brother or sister.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2020 09:16AM by azsteve.

The only two people I know of like your example are both toxic narcissists. Think about it. Mormonism promises you will be gods and goddesses. You will have your own worlds to rule over. You are smart enough to belong to the ONLY TRUE CHURCH on the earth. You are special, special, special without doing anything more than just being smart enough to belong.

My two narcissistic examples do not pay tithing. They married outside the church BUT made certain their kids were baptized. They threw chastity under the bus. They drink both coffee and booze. They criticize the church and the members endlessly. But they both believe.

It makes a lot of sense. If they are Mormon they will someday have worlds to dominate. Sure, they may have to eventually confess their sins to get on board but what narcissist does not know how to pretend sorrow and repentance? Mormonism is a religion that could not be better suited for the narcissistic personality.

This also makes sense of why those who truly believed until they discovered the truth, and gave it their all are so angry. They weren't in it for the grandiose promises for eternal glorification. They were in it to serve and make a positive difference in THIS world. Genuine caring people discover they have been had. Finding out that Mormonism is a hollow, purposeless, doctrinally devoid fabrication of a malignant narcissist is so hurtful.

Rather than being angry, I try to imagine all the narcissists in the world joining up because their own self-centered lifestyles would destroy the corporation pretty quickly. It would be like the economy of the State of Illinois, everything going out and nothing of substance coming in.

I'm angry at the stupidity of the brainwashed, sincerely caring people who are the backbone of the corporation. They are groaning under the weight of what they are expected to hold together yet they are oblivious to their plight. It reminds me of Stockholm syndrome. You can give them the facts and all the evidence but they will not condemn their captor. So,so sad.

That’s a brilliant metaphor for TBMs- that they have Stockholm syndrome. Yes!

Holy Frijole, CZ!

I nominate this thread to be added to the archives!

There are so many deep, thought-provoking elements pertaining to the corporation, Jack-Mos, TBMs, Ex-Mos, etc. on this thread depicting how we do and did live our lives in relation to said elements.

This discussion vastly eclipses each and every Priesthood & Relief Society lesson manual in the "Teachings of the Prophets" series. We are no longer correlated!

You speak of Jack Mormons. Is the female version then Jane Mormons?

Jill Mormons - the don't succeed in getting their waters of life.

Don't know if he still believed or not, but he did everything Mormons aren't supposed to do. He was also a rake as well.

I believe that a profession of belief is important. No matter what you do, what you say is much more important in Mormonism. It is the trick I just couldn't get now or then when I believed.