A number of sheriffs in eastern Washington, Michigan, Wisconsin, and other states have announced that they will not enforce the stay-at-home orders in their states. These are people who, like Ammon Bundy, believe that they have unique constitutional rights that no legal scholar has ever been able to find in the document or its juridical history.

The recalcitrant cops are operating under the notion of the "constitutional sheriff," a right-wing belief that local law enforcement officials are the highest legal authority in the land and may determine which laws are constitutional and which are not. It arose from the white supremacist "posse comitatus" movement of the late 20th century, which more or less died out but inspired much of the subsequent anti-establishment and racist enthusiasm that have roiled the country in recent years.

I'm not sure how the states and the feds are supposed to enforce order against these jokers. They live in areas that practice jury nullification to free Ammon Bundy and his ilk, and no one wants to challenge armed assholes in a manner that could lead to bloodshed at a time when the country needs cooperation in the absence of national leadership. But these sheriffs and their fellow travelers threaten the country and must sometime and somehow be brought to heel.

Meanwhile the LDS church remains silent regarding Bundy and his sympathizers, which could conceivably number as many as 10% of all Mormons. Will the Q15 take a stand in favor of the constitution, the national interest, and fidelity to their own Articles of Faith or continue to duck the difficult issues as they try to thread their way from an extremist past to a mainstream future?





https://www.thedailybeast.com/sheriffs-buck-the-law-refuse-to-enforce-lockdown-orders

https://www.foxnews.com/us/michigan-sheriffs-wont-strictly-enforce-stay-at-home-order

https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/michael-w-chapman/wisc-sheriff-i-wont-assist-destruction-businesses-or-peoples

https://www.officer.com/command-hq/news/21135369/washington-sheriff-says-he-wont-enforce-states-stayathome-order

I hope that when all this is under control they get fired. They are not doing their jobs. That is what would happen in any occupation.

I agree. But I believe a lot of those sheriffs are elected, so there may not be someone who can fire them.

Recall procedures, perhaps, or some sort of state or federal action: I hope something is possible. Those jerks endanger all of us.

In some states, the sheriff must be a certified peace officer. In those states whichever agency is responsible for certification could presumably withdraw the sheriff's certification making him/her ineligible to hold the position.

for example

https://www.oregon.gov/dpsst/cj/Documents/CJForms/F25-SheriffEligibility.pdf

It contains this:

"NOTICE: Per ORS 206.015, if elected and not currently holding Oregon DPSST Basic Police Certification, the
person elected or appointed to the
office of sheriff must obtain the certification no later than one year after taking office. A copy of the certification shall
be filed with the county
clerk or the county official in charge of elections.
The county governing body shall declare the office of sheriff vacant when the person serving as
sheriff is not certified as a police officer within one year after taking office."

But the requirements vary from state to state. I don't know what Utah or Idaho require.

Yeah, that makes sense. What I notice in that document, however, that there is no obvious recall provision. So if the sheriff wants to shirk the law, he might be able to do that for the remainder of his tenure. That could be months or, if the license lasts longer, years.

Nor is it clear what conditions are legally required for certification. What if the list of qualifications is definitive and does not allow independent judgment? Or what if the members of that body are also elected and hence subject to the same voters who selected the sheriffs?

I suspect it will take time to straighten these things out. I fear what my happen in the meanwhile.

I would interpret the last sentence to mean that if a sheriff were to lose his certification, he would be "not certified as a police officer within one year after taking office" and thus the office would be vacant. I think the intent of the legislature is pretty cllear that the sheriff needs to be a certified peace officer.

In Utah, it sounds like a similar provision is in place

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title17/Chapter22/C17-22_1800010118000101.pdf

(4) The county legislative body shall declare the office of sheriff to be vacant if at any time the
incumbent sheriff fails to meet the qualifications for office under Subsection (2).

(2) In addition to the general qualifications required of county officers by Title 17, Chapter 16,
County Officers, each county sheriff shall:
(a) at the time of taking office:
(i)
(A) have successfully met the standards and training requirements established for peace
officers under Title 53, Chapter 6, Part 2, Peace Officer Training and Certification Act; or
(B) have met the waiver requirements in Section 53-6-206; and
(ii) be qualified to be certified as:
(A) a law enforcement officer, as defined in Section 53-13-103; and
(B) if the person is elected to the office of county sheriff in any election held after the 2008
general election:
(I) a correctional officer, as defined in Section 53-13-104; or
(II) a correctional facility manager by having successfully completed a correctional facility
management course that is offered by a certified academy in both an online web-based
format and in a classroom format and that is approved by the Peace Officer Standards
and Training Council created in Section 53-6-106;
(b) satisfactorily complete annual certified training as required in Section 53-13-103; and
(c) after certification as provided in Subsection (2)(a), remain certified during the sheriff's term of
office as:
(i) a law enforcement officer; and
(ii) if the person is elected to the office of county sheriff in any election held after the 2008
general election:
(A) a correctional officer; or
(B) a correctional facility manager by having completed a correctional facility management
course approved by the Peace Officer Standards and Training Council.

I hope you are right.

As you know, there will be a body of precedent and practice that informs those words. I hope that the certification bodies are authorized, politically independent, and committed enough to state constitutions to withhold certification.

Sooner would be better than later, obviously, since people will die from the decisions of those rugged, federal-subsidy-dependent cowboys in their boots and Stetsons.

>I hope that the certification bodies are authorized, politically independent, and committed enough to state constitutions to withhold certification.

I wouldn't hold out much hope.
Consider this guy (speaking of Bundy)

https://www.opb.org/news/article/glenn-palmer-grant-county-oregon-resignation/

As far as recalls... many of the residents in these counties agree with the sheriff.

> As far as recalls... many of the residents in
> these counties agree with the sheriff.

I know. A democracy is no better than the people who comprise it.

The feds didn’t need a certification body to sue Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

These sheriffs took an oath to protect and defend the constitution. They obviously think they are doing that. Under common law, isn’t that their job? That’s why they’re elected, not appointed.

but Arpaio lost his job when he was defeated in an election.
And he is running for re-election this year.

Plus the charges against Joe involved racist enforcement policies, which the Justice Department is responsible for combating. That won't cover actions of utter stupidity that endanger all people irrespective of color, creed or religion.

I'm not sure what Bradley is trying to say.

I’m not sure either. But aren’t these the same people who fight to keep weed illegal?

I don't care what their opinions on weed are--I'd guess they are split on the matter since at least the libertarians among them would probably not want the regulation--but if they express their views legally, I have no problem with them.

What worries me is when their opposition to laws endangers others. On the one hand they want the freedom to infect others, on the other they are armed and may not take kindly to efforts by the authorities to break up their illegal demonstrations. Individual rights must end where others' ventilators begin.

We have opposite outlooks on the situation. You are genuinely worried. I’m not, at all. I still observe the lockdown rules because that’s the game. If it puts me on a ventilator, that’s my fault for letting it get me. I’m capable of really dumb things, but I think I’ll pass on that one. Since I see the virus as a non-problem, or at worst an education problem, I’m armchair quarterbacking.

If the Bundy crowd ceased their protests, it wouldn’t make a dent. America is wired to burn. Our idea of destruction as the path to redemption is too ingrained. There are too many people who either could care less if the virus spreads or would like it to spread faster. It’s not the majority, but it’s enough. Notice the crossover between Evangelicals and back-to-work supporters. What gets me is that this virus is worse for the enlarged amygdala people, exactly the ones putting themselves and their enlarged amygdala friends at risk.

Ammon Bundy is going to prove once again that Tianamen Square can’t happen here. Do you see anybody carrying a gas mask? Normal crowd control tactics would disperse them if needed, but they aren’t needed. It’s a symbolic protest. Surely they understand that their little pea shooters would be useless if used.

I know this doesn’t answer the question of a person’s right to be a disease vector. I don’t think they have that right. However, some people are given that right and some aren’t. It’s essential vs non-essential activities. Who gets to decide? I think that what’s happening is that people are losing their minds. They backfill the narrative to support their breakdown of mental resiliency. Now we’re back to the creation of sheeple. They may be easy to manage, but the herd gets restless.

What is the basis for your view that COVID-19 is not a serious threat?

Faith. Or a sense that things are being balanced out for us. We’ve killed how many people with our counterproductive wars? COVID19 has some catching up to do. These are the birthing pains of a new world. A better world.

The virus is a mental hygiene problem, not a physical hygiene problem. That’s why it’s so weird. If I keep up with the former, I’m fine. As for friends and family, they have technology just in case. It will never get to the respirator stage.

But if I didn’t have my ace in the hole, and I could end up in a hospital, I would be a little worried. But even then, there is a time appointed. So let Kingdom come, his will be done. You can see there are lots of people who think this way. Maybe it’s a self fulfilling prophecy, the severity of this virus. It could, in theory, be a non-problem for the world. But that’s not how the world works. It’s certainly not how the United States works.

We are ruled by philosopher kings. That’s why the lockdown. But you can’t tell a king that the model of reality they’ve bought into is bogus. Louis Pasteur did it, but it took him decades. And he was a doctor.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2020 11:43AM by bradley.

That's some pretty crazy shiz right there, bradley.

If my answers scare you, Vincent, you should stop asking scary questions.

Your answers don't scare me.

Amuse me? Sadden me? Yes. But only in the the way Hie once said he wept for the education of some Americans.

What exactly is your point--that the feds should take action against these sheriffs or that they should not?

Anyone that follows Ammon Bundy is an idiot. Hitching your wagon to Bundy is not good for your health. Just ask Utah mormon Lavoy Finicum. Oh, wait. You can't.

So far Ammon Bundy has avoided lead poisoning. You have to be a special kind of idiot to lead a peaceful protest and end up breaking into a wildlife refuge and end up in a showdown with the state police and FBI. Ammon’s crazy Mormon friend ended up getting shot because he didn’t stop and keep his hands in the air and reached inside his jacket. Ammon Bundy doesn’t help anyone’s cause. He’s an idiot who draws trouble.

If you read the BoM, you can see why Ammon was well armed. He was chopping them off left and right.

ROTFLMOA!

You wrapped it up quite well Rubicon :)

He’s an idiot who draws trouble.

The Ballad of Ammon Bundy

He was born in Bunkerville in seventy-five
To a man who may have been the worst man alive
Dumber than his father was the young Ammon Bundy
His mother had to dress up him for meetin’ ev’ry Sundy

Ammon’d had enough of all the government’s crap
Started in first grade when they eliminated naps
He called his fourth grade teacher a socialist liar
Threatened to impeach her and set her ass on fire

He dropped out of high school for his real education
No sense learnin’ evils that was harmin’ our nation
Only God can tell us what we need to be saved
Nothin’ else is useful, it all leads to the grave

His daddy stood with other men on BLM land
Everyone a redneck with a rifle in his hand
Funny thing it was back then, the president was black
Ever since he’s white again, those rednecks ain’t gone back

Nowadays dumb Ammon is protesting a disease
Fighting with a virus that he claims he cannot see
All that social distancing must be a commie plot
Ammon thinks, and God knows this, the man weren’t made for thought

Rockin' it, Don!!

Don't hold your breath waiting for the Bundy's to pay their grazing fees (actual name??);

I know I won't..

Would the Bundy's apply to be law enforcement officers?
That's so FING SCARY I think I might crap my pants...

Those horrible Nazis who refuse to enforce draconian laws! They're worse than Hitler.

I read in Barbara Tuchman that there were people like you in the 14th century. They left no descendants.

Going straight to Hitler doesn't help your case. It just makes you look unable to muster up a cogent argument on your own behalf.

Those draconian laws have saved the health and lives of countless thousands of people, maybe even those of you and/or your family. Be careful what you wish for, it may kill you.

> Going straight to Hitler doesn't help your case.
> It just makes you look unable to muster up a
> cogent argument on your own behalf.

xxMoO may be unique in the sense that the predictable resort to Hitler doesn't weaken his arguments at all.

Imagine me with a badge arresting all of the Bundys !

Don't worry - the overwhelming majority of Americans worship their government, and the number is increasing all the time. Especially among my TBM relatives, many of whom have or had a high paying federal job, with nice retirements. The feds like TBMs as LDS are trained to be obedient to authority.

And also have difficulty doing analysis on their own. I send them alternative views to what's shown on the news, and they can't process them. It is just easier to look to government and church leaders for marching orders. Do not consider faith threatening information.

Of course, it is nice that the federal government is able to produce unlimited amounts of free money with each supposed crisis, which allows them to take any action they want and pay for the damage caused by such action. Which gains even more true believers. News showed a survey couple days ago saying 84% of people wanted more 'stimulus' money. No way!

The unlimited money is how you get the 'extremely effective' War on Drugs, War on Terror, War on Poverty, etc, and now the War on Viruses.

Now expect each year, we will be shutting down the economy for Influenza, considering it killed 80,000 Americans a couple winters ago. Fortunately, we really only need to work 8 months a year.

What's another 5 or 10 trillion in spending? Whatever it takes to get deaths to zero.

These guys need to get in line with what government is doing:

https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

One interesting study shows school closures ineffective

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't worry - the overwhelming majority of
> Americans worship their government, and the number
> is increasing all the time.

False. American respect for, and trust in, government is at an all-time low.

The truth is out there. You could resolve to find it before attempting to characterize it--although that approach might require you to adjust your views to conform with reality.




https://news.gallup.com/poll/246371/americans-trust-government-handle-problems-new-low.aspxhttps://www.people-press.org/2019/04/11/public-trust-in-government-1958-2019/

https://www.people-press.org/2019/04/11/public-trust-in-government-1958-2019/

"Here in the real world, the immunologists with years of experience are out, and the labradoodle breeders are in."

The truth is (I know that you don't put much stock in truth) is that the flu killed 61,000 Americans in an 18 month period. CV-19 has killed 53,000 Americans in 7 weeks. By tomorrow, we will have lost more American lives due to CV-19 than in 12 years in Vietnam.

And this with modern healthcare technology. The Spanish flu would have been contained much more effectively and easily with the resources that today have limited the COVID cost to 50,000 Americans and a depression.

Some are too willing to join bradley in his Panglossian mantra that nature insists on balance so any plaque is fine in this best of all possible worlds.

Too bad the composer of Wozzeck and Lulu isn’t around. This would make for a great 12-Tone post-Webern opera a la theater of the absurd. Figaro’s Boner.

I get the allusion: Homer Simpson in that episode where they removed the crayon from his brain: "good as Gould!"

Alas, the world is indeed hitting an iceBerg!

I have avoided engaging in POLITICAL discussion (As this topic is) many times as per board rules yet how is it that one of the biggest mouths on this discussion board can chime in with just about anything including insulting others without censure. This is why I rarely visit this site anymore and perhaps others feel the same.
I am a Bundy supporting, JBS supporting Nationalist who isn't racist believe it or not. The bigger issue here is restoring and preserving our sovereignty as a nation and a people. Much of Fed policy is policy designed to undermine that independence and advance a ONE WORLD AUTHORITY.

Cliven Bundy (Ammon's father) quote:

"I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro. When I go to Las Vegas, north Las Vegas, and I would see these little Government houses, and in front of that Government house the door was usually open, and the older people and the kids and there was always at least half a dozen people on the porch. They didn't have nothing to do, they didn't have nothing for the kids to do, they didn't have nothing for the young girls to do. They were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I've often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn't get no more freedom. They got less freedom."

Sources: New York Times and Reuters.

I rejoice when I see colored people in good middle class jobs and living the American dream. What has happened to the black people is tragic and I don't have all the answers. There is an element of truth to what father Bundy said. I don't know if there is hints of racism in his comments so much as expressing his dismay at the reality of the situation and the results of governments attempts to fix it. The blacks have been horribly mistreated throughout their entire American experience.

You're exactly the type that viruses are created for. Good luck.

Ffelix Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I rejoice when I see colored people in good middle
> class jobs and living the American dream.

Was it you who said, "I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it?"

Maybe not. But great minds think alike.

Imagine this guy with a badge.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sheriff+tony+demeo&atb=v141-1&iax=videos&ia=videos

Use your words, Ffelix. You can do it.

One of my bishops was a Right-Winger who always railed against 'Gubbermint', but he chose as counselors two government employees; Go Figure...