We talk about human progress and societal progress a lot. We don't realize that while we make giant leaps into bettering our societies, we still have the same problems that we always have had.

But they weren't always problems.

"Similarly, tribal loyalty and revenge made sense -- if another caveman messed with your tribe, you bashed him over the head and he was unlikely to do it again."
http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/Thoc/HumanInstincts.html

Why would Mother Nature make us so flawed for this human progress and societal progress?

And speaking of mothers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U6zU4MXmnA

I feel for that mom. Our dumb secret is up.

Evolution
It's not a weakness it's a strength.

Why would Mother Nature make us us and them creatures?
PERVERSITY?

This, "today," is just a snapshot in time--a still photo of an instant in an eons-long progression.

We are all still evolving.

Nothing new....just more of the same (albeit in apparently different "clothes"), a steady continuation of evolution on this planet.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This, "today," is just a snapshot in time--a still
> photo of an instant in an eons-long progression.
>
> We are all still evolving.
>
> Nothing new....just more of the same (albeit in
> apparently different "clothes"), a steady
> continuation of evolution on this planet.

Maybe we are the perfect example of why we have not had a close encounter with an Interstellar species, because on the way to develop technology to travel between stars, a species first develops nukes capable of sending us back to the stone age, or turn Earth into a sun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2020 11:24PM by schrodingerscat.

Good point. My post was the us and them instinct in humans. That was not "man" made.

Survival of the fittest, evolution, human nature, basic psychology..over the years we have learned to self examine humanity and try to label and categorize things.

We get the US vs THEM mentality. My tribe vs your tribe. My territory is more important that your territory.

It is instinctual to raise our odds of survival above someone else.

I don't consider it a design flaw, because as intelligent beings we can choose how to exist based on our societal norms, ethics, and experiences.

Unlike animal instincts, we have a choice.

RMM

Recovered Molly Mormon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't consider it a design flaw, because as
> intelligent beings we can choose how to exist
> based on our societal norms, ethics, and
> experiences.

In the aggregate and in masses greater than 150 people it is a design flaw if it was good for evolutionary fitness in a world brimming with people.

Someone said Mother Nature is God. What a strange god she is.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Someone said Mother Nature is God. What a strange
> god she is.

"Pantheism is the belief that the universe itself is god or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent deity." Edwards, Paul (1967). Encyclopedia of Philosophy. New York: Macmillan. p. 34.

What's strange about that?

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Pantheism is the belief that the universe itself
> is god or that everything composes an
> all-encompassing, immanent deity." Edwards, Paul
> (1967). Encyclopedia of Philosophy. New York:
> Macmillan. p. 34.
>
> What's strange about that?

Um, everything. Literally.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Pantheism is the belief that the universe
> itself
> > is god or that everything composes an
> > all-encompassing, immanent deity." Edwards,
> Paul
> > (1967). Encyclopedia of Philosophy. New York:
> > Macmillan. p. 34.
> >
> > What's strange about that?
>
> Um, everything. Literally.

I guess Einstein was strange then.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess Einstein was strange then.

He is the archetype for the nutty professor.

"Perhaps if Einstein had sought more consistency in his own religious thought, and had been less concerned with a God who embodied human ideas of reason, he might have learned to be excited by indeterminacy. Then he might have come to see indeterminacy as another manifestation of the mystery, creativity and playfulness of Being."
https://www.pantheism.net/paul/history/einstein.htm

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I guess Einstein was strange then.
>
> He is the archetype for the nutty professor.
>
> "Perhaps if Einstein had sought more consistency
> in his own religious thought, and had been less
> concerned with a God who embodied human ideas of
> reason, he might have learned to be excited by
> indeterminacy. Then he might have come to see
> indeterminacy as another manifestation of the
> mystery, creativity and playfulness of Being."
> https://www.pantheism.net/paul/history/einstein.ht
> m
I guess Michio Kaku is "nutty" too then, in your opinion.
https://youtu.be/Hi6yPJvCFU0
I guess I am in good company.

Bolstering your beliefs based upon the beliefs of others with the recognition they have received puts you in the company of most relious people. And some of them are good company when spending time with them. Using the experts of things not involved in ontological beliefs to created them in your cafeteria style of God offerings is nutty.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bolstering your beliefs based upon the beliefs of
> others with the recognition they have received
> puts you in the company of most relious people.
> And some of them are good company when spending
> time with them. Using the experts of things not
> involved in ontological beliefs to created them in
> your cafeteria style of God offerings is nutty.

I pay attention to what cosmologists have to say about the nature of the cosmos. Their world view is a hell of a lot more meaningful to me than the opinion of an anonymous ExMo.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I pay attention to what cosmologists have to say
> about the nature of the cosmos. Their world view
> is a hell of a lot more meaningful to me than the
> opinion of an anonymous ExMo.

LOL!

But on our pale blue dot the nature of the cosmos isn't god nor are cosmologists prophets of a god. And opinions of people who actually engage with you in conversation can be much more meaningful than famous people you probably will never meet and won't have any kind of relationship with in your life.

Their words in the beliefs zone (AKA pantheism) on the scale of your human life and my human life are about as relevant as any t.v. preachers, yet you've tried to imbue them with divinity. Of course you care about them more than my opinions. I got that a full 100 threads ago that you've posted.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2020 11:04AM by Elder Berry.

+Elder Berry:
Mother nature is a brainless thing. Everything, from subatomic particles and space comes from intrinsic properties of those things. No choice has been made. It is simply like that.

Even if there is a god(s), the god can’t make choices with respect to certain things.
He can’t decide to exist. A brainless thing “decided” that the god should exist.
A god has to be exist in some plane of existence. He doesn’t get to choose which one. He doesn’t get to choose what properties his universe has. He doesn’t get to choose what he is made of.

The idea of a omniscient god is silly. That would require an infinite amount of memory space which requires an infinite amount of atoms to build that memory which means his brain’s size would be infinite and non-functional.

Primitive man had no clue what they were talking about when they claimed their god is omniscient.

~~~~iceman9090

There is no Mother Nature. There is matter. And matter does things. And because matter is mortal it must grow, adapt, and change to survive. But there is no Arturo Toscanini with a baton conducting all the matter. The life force inside every bit of matter is all that matters. Give it a billion years and you will have a masterpiece.

Survival and propagation have driven every action since the beginning of time for all creatures. And it is the fittest that survive using the tools of aping, adaptation, and these days--audacity as humans wish to not only survive but survive in style!

Advances in technology have allowed the definition of "fittest" to change, but it is still the same game. Though "survival of the fittest" at one time referred to brawn, cleverness found ways to compete, even dominate leveling the playing field. Today nimble fingers on a a computer with an agile brain will serve you as well as gigantic biceps. A geeky scientist may be more powerful than any Conan the Barbarian. Words can often dull a sword.


But the basic principles underlying life have never changed. Different frosting, same cake. Something deep inside wants to survive and will find a way even if it's divide and conquer.


Too often most forget that reciprocity is also a survival skill.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too often most forget that reciprocity is also a
> survival skill.

Not the Mafia, Mormon or otherwise.

> there is no Arturo Toscanini with a baton
> conducting all the matter.

:-(

I'm no expert on human evolution, but from what I understand, the idea of evolution leading to a better form of life is romantic nonsense. Evolution is less about refining and perfecting a species and more "throwing hereditary traits at a wall and seeing what sticks." The "us vs them" mentality, as Elder Berry and others have pointed out, would be an advantage in an environment where other troops of hominids are competing with you for food and shelter. In a society with trade and cooperation being an advantage, not so much.

Honestly, we're still just primates who got bipedalism and pattern-baldness. Only difference between us and most other primates is that we're able to recognize that our instincts saying "Kill, Eat, Fuck" can be a disadvantage.

ookami Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In a society with trade and
> cooperation being an advantage, not so much.

Yes, and the invisible hand has to stay invisible because we primates like to hide our instincts. We learned to do this long before we had troops and troops and more troops of us.

I do as well. We could learn from them.

"Kill, Eat, F-ck! The Celestial Kingdom awaits!!"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2020 07:04PM by elderolddog.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would Mother Nature make us so flawed...?

Because Mother Nature is also cancer.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2313650,2313860#msg-2313860



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2020 11:37AM by Elder Berry.