Ok, do we buy this?

starting eons ago...

the survival rates - into adulthood - were dismal for centuries, this has only improved in say, the last 300 yrs.

NOT IN TERMS OF ABSOLUTES !!

Men had greater upper-body strength, could or might we agree that female roles WERE more centered around raising - protecting their offspring while men were hunters, gatherers?

Some have said that 'men are sperm donors', not as centered on home duties as women, not as likely to settle into one unit (which we now call a household)..

Here's my question, pls don't flame me as this pertains to how things were years ago, not necessarily today!

COULD IT BE ? that women's appearance was designed by nature to attract men to father children (euphemism) for be attracted to women / have sex with them?

I think it's safe to say that some men are attracted to women because of such things as make-up, curves, hair arrangements, etc.

NOT saying this is today healthy or justified, but only 'was this true earlier?'

any sociologists or anthropologists here?

Assuming that both of the persons involved are heterosexual, and that coercion and/or rape is not involved, Yes: male heterosexuals tend to be attracted to [certain] females, and female heterosexuals tend to to be attracted to [certain] males.

Males (taken as an entirety) do tend to have more upper body strength than females (although women have been doing "men's work," whether it be construction, or military fighting, etc., going back thousands of years). When females have the luxury of being able to devote themselves to "home duties," often they have done so--maybe not entirely, since planting and harvesting and making bricks still needed to be done--but yeah, if the environment is fruitful enough, and there is plenty of water available, and if some kind of relative peace abounds at that particular time, women are able to more devote themselves to "home duties" than would otherwise be the case.

In more recent centuries (certainly, in the USA, from American slave times on), women have gradually gained more equal rights with men as they have proven themselves equal in (for example) military duties, or flying (or constructing!) airplanes, etc.

I know that in Israel, where there is a nearly universal military service requirement (the ultra-Orthodox have some limited alternatives available to them because of Israeli politics), I have personally seen and interacted with former, or presently serving, women military troops, and you DO NOT MESS with the, often extremely stunningly attractive, 18-year-old female who, in certain situations, is basically in charge of whether YOU are going to continue living or you will die.

If you are interested in gender differences in stereotypically "masculine" positions, study the Israeli military and security services.

You will quickly come to an enormous appreciation of what women in "masculine" positions can do, and DO do, every moment of every day.

[Go to YouTube and search for: women in Israeli military.]

EDITED TO ADD: Some time ago (probably many decades ago, but I do not know the actual time period for a fact) the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) discovered that many people on the autism spectrum make SUPERB analyzers of raw intelligence data (surveillance photos, etc.)--and their natural abilities often FAR exceeded what people NOT on the spectrum are usually able to do. As a result: If you are growing up in Israel, and you are on the autism spectrum, the chances are excellent that you will find yourself serving in one or another of the intelligence agencies when it comes time to do your IDF stint.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2020 10:55PM by Tevai.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I know that in Israel, where there is a nearly
> universal military service requirement (the
> ultra-Orthodox have some limited alternatives
> available to them because of Israeli politics), I
> have personally seen and interacted with former,
> or presently serving, women military troops, and
> you DO NOT MESS with the, often extremely
> stunningly attractive, 18-year-old female who, in
> certain situations, is basically in charge of
> whether YOU are going to continue living or you
> will die.

I came across an article about a company-sized outfit of Kurdish women, well-trained and deadly, very much feared by ISIS. Not only were they good fighters, but the Jihadists feared being killed by them, as they believe(d) that being killed by a woman would deny then Paradise and their 72 virgins...raisins...whatever.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I came across an article about a company-sized
> outfit of Kurdish women, well-trained and deadly,
> very much feared by ISIS. Not only were they good
> fighters, but the Jihadists feared being killed by
> them, as they believe(d) that being killed by a
> woman would deny then Paradise and their 72
> virgins...raisins...whatever.

Another excellent example.

Thank you, caffiend!

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I know that in Israel, where there is a nearly
> universal military service requirement (the
> ultra-Orthodox have some limited alternatives
> available to them because of Israeli politics), I
> have personally seen and interacted with former,
> or presently serving, women military troops, and
> you DO NOT MESS with the, often extremely
> stunningly attractive, 18-year-old female who, in
> certain situations, is basically in charge of
> whether YOU are going to continue living or you
> will die.
>
> If you are interested in gender differences in
> stereotypically "masculine" positions, study the
> Israeli military and security services.
>
> You will quickly come to an enormous appreciation
> of what women in "masculine" positions can do, and
> DO do, every moment of every day.

True enough, based on everything you wrote, but this is something of a non-sequitor since we're not talking about upper-body strength or raw muscle-on-muscle, where men mostly have the advantage, but technology.

Point being a GUN makes a huge difference!

xxMo0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Point being a GUN makes a huge difference!

Absolutely....which is why some military weapons are often carried most everywhere in Israel.

On a practical basis, it is kind of comforting to be in a souk (a semi-outdoor, Middle Eastern, market), or on a bus, or just walking down an ordinary street when an IDF member, with weapon, is visibly nearby.

If "anything happens," there is someone near who can respond to the situation in a matter of seconds.

??????

Yes, heterosexual men find women attractive.
Yes, heterosexual women find men attractive.
Yes, almost all people find all baby mammals adorable and cute and cuddly. It's a genetic drive so that we will invest the large amount of effort needed to keep infants alive.

These are not complicated questions. Why all the defensiveness? And why only ask about men finding women attractive? A young ripped guy tends to get noticed. Think Brad Pitt in Thelma and Louise. twenty nine years later and he is still not chopped liver.

so far, I guess in this thread, attractiveness (being attracted to someone of the opposite gender) isn't necessarily sexist.

Well, referring to someone’s physical appearance or physical attractiveness has gotten people fired. So Under some circumstances it certainly is in some people’s eyes.

I have been to Green Lake, but I was not there that fateful day so I can’t comment on you in particular. But if I did, would I be sexist? I guess if I had some sort of perceived power like I was a board moderator.

Finding people attractive is not sexist, but harassing them about that attractiveness in the wrong circumstances (i.e. at the office,) can be. A lot of times women just want to go to work, do the job, get paid, and go home -- just like you. They don't want to be constantly hassled about their appearance.

It's also sexist to put an artificial limit on what you think a person can do without regard to that person's talents and abilities.

This is just basic biology...The Selfish Gene. Even the most enlightened male will overlook a woman with a great personality in favor of a woman with the exterior traits of fertility.

Nature is extemely sexist. The fact that you're worried about such things shows that you're evolved.

Celebrate lust, but be kind about it.

The movie "Quest for Fire" showed us a time when body type determined role and sexual attraction was the driving part of the Life Force.

Fire, weapons, inventions, industrialization, and now technology have changed body type from determining role. These days mental acuity and talent may determine role or even allow roles to be chosen or discarded. Though social norms still play a huge part. Did cave men have to deal with peer pressure? Hmmmn.


The life force needs have not diminished over time, but are now subject to push Victoria secret push-up bras, flirty make-up, breast and butt implants, viagra, gym bodies for pecs, abs, and biceps---all used as weapons to inspire the very lust that one claims is unwelcome.


By now, understanding this concept of sexism is pretty tricky. My personal observation as to whether or not a comment is determined to be sexist, is whether the object of the comment is attracted to the comment maker or finds them unappealing. What the hot person says is charming though it would be filthy sexism from anyone else?

You have to know your audience. When in doubt, do nothing?

Let's keep the planet on it's current path to becoming more boring each day as it is impossible for us to do almost anything or say anything that doesn't offend someone and get us shunned, cost us our career, or even be sued for all we've got.

Being the strong silent type is all we have left and you had better get it in writing that someone wants to be kissed before you pucker up.

What can a comic even say these days?

I was an intern, and my boss asked me if I'd heard the song AND if I was wearing a thong.

Errr...

My future employment depended on what this man said about my work. It had nothing to do with how attractive or unattractive I found him to be.

So what did I do? I laughed it off outwardly. Inwardly, I cried.

Never heard the Thong song. Had to look up the lyrics.

EWwWWWWWW. OMG. And your boss asked that???

You make an important point Beth and illustrate how much more there is to all this. My point is how does anyone know how to interpret almost anything anymore, cuz . . .

Power.

Plays in. And they keep the lines fuzzy, don't they? They can turn it on you in a second.

Good luck to everybody is about all I can say.

Be the one to just reach out and grab and you can win an election. Be the one to just chuckle at the line, and you lose your career.

I don't understand where all this fear and pity comes from. Treat everyone around you with respect. It's not really all that hard. Don't act like coworkers are potential sex partners. Treat them like coworkers. Do you impulsively tell sex jokes, or make insinuations to small children? Probably not. So it's not a lot harder not to do it to people of the opposite sex that you cross paths with.

Thanks for preaching to the choir.

"And they keep the lines fuzzy, don't they? They can turn it on you in a second."

Who is the "they" that are out to get you?

I've found that coffee or a walk can be a good ice breaker.

This guy - there was no way I'd date him while I was basically auditioning for a job. The summer associate thing is a racket in Big Law. A total and complete racket.

Here's an example of stupid that turned out well:

One of my brothers was helping decorate the break room for some reason I don't remember. I think he was an emergency dispatcher at the time. My father called me seeking my advice (har), because my brother had been fired.

Dad: Beth, [brother] was fired.

Me: Oh no! What happened?

Dad: He was fired for sexual harassment.

Me: Wait. Wut?! That doesn't sound like him.

Dad: Exactly. They were decorating the break room, two women were standing on the table, and [dumbass] waved a dollar bill at them.

Me: I'm sorry. He did WHAT?

Dad: He waved a dollar bill at them. He was fired, and I need to know if you can help him get his job back or get unemployment.

Me: WHAT?!

Dad (who is so wrong on so many levels): All he did was...

Me: DAD. No. What he did IS sexual harassment. OMG

Dad: He was just joking.

Me: DAD! NO! What he did was SO WRONG. Can't you see that? I don't know what upsets me more. How would you feel if someone did that to *me*?

Dad: I'll talk to you later.

Me: Yeah. Good talk.

The type of behavior that Beth experienced is not at all unusual in some work sites. I would venture that most younger women run into it sooner or later. I did. And yeah, it's obnoxious. Like I said, women are just there to earn a paycheck like everyone else.

If you find a woman attractive on the job, you can ask her out for a drink or a meal. You'll find out quickly enough if she's interested. Or if you notice that her hair is freshy done, or she is wearing a new outfit, you can tell her that she looks nice. I think most women appreciate that. But sexual harassment goes well beyond that, as Beth explained.

Man as mighty hunter is a myth. We were
scavengers. Something women could do as well as men.

Check out the book Sex in pre history.

True.

Hunter-gatherer cultures are egalitarian and in many instances matriarchal and matrilinear. Agricultural societies are more complex because on the one hand farmers tend to worship female deities while nascent states do construct police forces and armies of one sort or another.

But the main transition to patriarchy came to Eurasia with the Indo-European expansion out of the Pontic Steppe and into Tocharia, Central Asia, India, Iran, Anatolia, and most of Europe. Those people were nomadic and, as such, functioned as armed tribes frequently at war, in which circumstances greater physical strength really mattered. So you ended up with male-dominated societies and male-centric pantheons.

Something similar happened in the desert countries of the Near East and Africa because they too had nomadic pastoral economies that put a premium on warfare. The reason the YHWH cult never achieved full control of Palestine was because their male-centric religion was alien to the Canaanite agricultural substrate. Indeed, the matrilinear nature of Jewish ethnicity--you are Jewish if your mother was Jewish--is a legacy of the earlier agricultural culture against which the YHWH cult rebelled.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Indeed, the matrilinear
> nature of Jewish ethnicity--you are Jewish if your
> mother was Jewish--is a legacy of the earlier
> agricultural culture against which the YHWH cult
> rebelled.

This is an insight I have never seen or heard of before, but you are undoubtedly correct.

When I was going through my conversion to Judaism classes, we were taught that matrilineal descent was adopted because rape in that time and place was so prevalent everywhere.

(Literally: a woman going to the community well or nearby river to get water for her family could be raped before she got back to her abode, and groups of armed "others" would periodically sweep through any given community, and when that happened, all women who couldn't hide themselves sufficiently well were likely to be raped.)

It was often impossible to identify a given infant's biological father, but that child's indisputable biological mother was a matter of first-hand observation--thus: maternal descent was adopted as the criteria for "who is a Jew?"

I think you have pointed out another relevant perspective on "the reason behind the reason," and I think you are likely absolutely correct.

Thank you!

Somewhere at the base of the Cain and Able story is the Earth Mother Goddess.

Cain did not properly propitiate her and She refused to yield up Her goodness.

It goes downhill from there.

Just my two cents. Fair warning I might invoke Godwin's law, at least in spirit.

I find it slightly abhorrent that we would take genetically determined differences and use them to justify actions and beliefs. Isn't this one of the justifications for slavery? That a woman can give birth or that a man might be able lift more weight shouldn't define that person as a child bearer or weight lifter.

I'm not trying to say anything about any of the above posters. I'm just adding my thoughts.

I agree that this is abhorrent, but it has also been going on at least since humans became a separate species.

One of the shining accomplishments of developing contemporary life is that we have, to a large extent, greatly abolished many of these practices....and we are (at least in certain places around the globe) working fairly steadily to abolish those which still exist.

Man as mighty hunter is a myth. Read S*x in Prehistory.

No more drunk posting this weekend.

I wonder what the root of attraction really is. It seems to be size, People perhaps are attracted to large things, big things. Perhaps it has to do with getting enough to eat and our brains confuse body parts with food?