I've noticed in these times people tend to throw that label out there when there is an interpretation of facts that they disagree with.
For example those who propagate beliefs that they see are true are not spreading lies .
I believe that covid 19 was a world wide plot to get rid of the baby boomers just when they started to sponge off social security. Am I spreading lies or just my belief?

Yes, you are spreading lies.

One needs to be able to tell the difference between Sh*t and Shinola! There are way too many folks in the American electorate who don’t seem to have that ability.

Just saying!

"sponge off social security" ? You mean a benefit that people have paid into their entire working lives ?

I'm sick of hearing this type of rhetoric from people who seem to think that social security is an entitlement program and not something they've paid into for their whole lives.




Talk about a false narrative...

If you look up "entitlement programs," you will find that social security is listed every time, right there with Medicaid, Medicare, unemployment, etc.

Everybody who pays taxes pays for all of those programs. There is no difference between them. The only question is who pays for the program once insufficient funding problems arise.

I swore I wouldn't get political here, but . . .

Who is held accountable for the insufficient funding? For borrowing from Peter to indulge Paul?

I know 8 people personally who said they did not need the stimulus checks. I know quite a few who don't want to go back to work because they made more money on the unemployement with the extra $600 a week tacked onto the base.

How much would the money spent on the wall go toward funding the "entitlement" benefits?

I was taught the principles of budgeting and delayed gratification as a child. Sometimes I think I was the only one.

The problem, D&D, is that in a democracy voters are ultimately responsible for governmental malfeasance. If anything, that fact is more evident now than ever before.

So the question is who pays for the misgovernance: the people who voted for the politicians who produced the policies, or the children and grandchildren who had no vote during the crucial years. Fairness and moral concerns will of course not enter into the discussion.

Alexander Fraser Tytler supposedly said,

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years."

Whether or not the attribution is correct, the statement surely is. When voters start taking money from future generations, democracy is in trouble.

Well, there is that. I wish your post didn't make sense.

Alexander Fraser sums it up nicely and it goes along with what I have always thought ruined everything: Credit.

Buy Now--Pay Later.


However, buy now pay later turned into buy now let someone else pay later.

> buy now pay later turned into buy now let
> someone else pay later.

That is exactly right. National debt is by definition a burden on future taxpayers. Then came the credit revolution of the late 1970s and early 1980s, from which point consumer borrowing and debt rose inexorably.

When individuals go bankrupt, banks and creditors suffer the losses. And when banks go bankrupt, the government absorbs the losses and adds them to the national debt. So both government deficits and irresponsible consumer behavior end up as national debt and hence the burden of future taxpayers.

I'm expecting the USA to inflate itself out of debt just as soon as they can stockpile sufficient ink for the presses! What a great and glorious day it will be when I see my first $1,000,000,000 dollar bill!

Debasing cultural currency to maintain the status quo.

It may be true that you ~believe~ something, but that doesn't make what you believe true. It's still a lie in many cases.

All beliefs are not equal when it comes to respectful consideration, IMO. Extra-stupid sounding beliefs require extraordinary evidence.

Conspiracy stories appeal to our need to find patterns, but unfortunately our ability to correctly interpret patterns with educated reasoning is often lacking.

Trouble is arrogance plays into both sides.

Most people on the board know I'm a TBM and I've posted here since 99.I have read everything here over the years and know everything you know and probably more but I come to a different conclusion. Of course I look at things a little different than most Mormons too which occasionally gets me into trouble also.

PHIL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most people on the board know I'm a TBM and I've
> posted here since 99.

I did not know this and I've been here since the early 2000s.

You don't remember when Susan warned me? Plus I was thrown off a few times
Also Steve Benson gave me a hard time when he was still posting here.

You are legend if you got a reply from Benson.

And I think I remember. Glad you are still here.

> I have read everything here
> over the years and know everything you know and
> probably more but I come to a different
> conclusion.

How would information regarding the recovery from Mormonism give you a better understanding of COVID-19?

PHIL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Trouble is arrogance plays into both sides.
>
> Most people on the board know I'm a TBM and I've
> posted here since 99.I have read everything here
> over the years and know everything you know and
> probably more but I come to a different
> conclusion. Of course I look at things a little
> different than most Mormons too which occasionally
> gets me into trouble also.

I totally agree with you because I am in the same boat. I say what I think and many times others jump up on my shoulders and do a tap dance on my brain



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2020 03:04PM by thedesertrat1.

There is a theory that earth has never been contacted by alien civilizations because advanced aliens have no use for beings who won't accept facts that conflict with what those brings want to believe.

Book recommendation if you haven't read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End

"Am I spreading lies or just my belief?"

Spreading a serious accusation without any credible evidence is no better than spreading lies, no matter how passionately you believe it.

From a never-Mormon who was raised Roman Catholic but who now is an atheist (me) to a still-practicing Mormon (you):

Just because you believe something to be true doesn't make it true; it only means that you *believe* it to be true. If something you believe is actually true, then credible evidence from reputable and highly respected sources will emerge with legitimate factual information supporting your beliefs. If credible facts from reputable and highly respected sources do not emerge, then one can assume that what one believes is probably not true.

Science is good but it is limited in what it can prove. Does something exist beyond our quantifiable senses?
Who knows?

Science is good but it is limited in what it can prove. Does something exist beyond our quantifiable senses?
Who knows?

COMMENT: Science is indeed limited in what it can prove. But that does not mean that is unable to provide factual evidence that relates to the truth of statements of fact. Science, in various forms, has provided abundant factual evidence as related to various Mormon claims; which evidence shows quite unequivocally that the foundational claims of Mormonism are very likely to be false; to a high degree of certainty in my view. You cannot hide from such factual evidence by clinging to a demand for "proof."

It is a fact of science that some things exist that are beyond our quantifiable senses; so I will give you that. But is that a scientific license to believe in any sort of non-sensory religious dogma that someone like JS might dream up? Again, you cannot rely upon the limitations of science to make metaphysical claims that are not themselves supported by evidence; other than your own hopes and dreams. And with respect to Mormonism this is especially true, because in many instances Mormonism lends itself to scientific scrutiny. And in those cases, it has come up far short, to say the least.

Finally, I do not care in the least that you have faith in Mormonism. But if you think somehow that Mormonism can withstand scientific or logical scrutiny, or that you can justify your faith by interpretation of facts, you are solely mistaken.

Lies, lies and more lies.

I've noticed in these times people tend to throw that label out there when there is an interpretation of facts that they disagree with.

COMMENT: Facts are statements about how the world actually is, independent of anyone's beliefs. And there may be logical inferences (interpretations) from such facts, or illogical inferences (interpretations). An interpretation or inference from a fact, or set of facts, is a new fact, which should be judged accordingly. If it follows logically from other facts, fine, but if not, there is no reason to accept the interpretation as equal in status or connected to the fact from which it was derived.

When inferences from a fact are cleverly presented as a logic deduction or inductive extension of that fact, rather than a new fact to be judged on its own merits, a distortion often is communicated about the relationship between such facts. Mormonism does this cheap trick all the time.

_____________________________________

For example those who propagate beliefs that they see are true are not spreading lies.

COMMENT: I agree. A statement of belief is not a statement of fact as to what is believed. However, if the statement of belief is itself false; i.e. there is no such belief; then it becomes a false statement of fact, and therefore a lie.

Mormonism, and religion generally often encourage their members to present their mere beliefs as statements of fact in order to turn a belief into a "testimony"; or are encouraged to consider mere "belief" an unacceptable substitute for "knowledge" which implies that what is known is a fact. This is disingenuous at best, and very close to a lie, because they are deliberately leaving the false impression that their mere belief is a fact that is known to them. If you add "certainty" or "beyond a shadow of a doubt," the deception is worse.
________________________________________

I believe that covid 19 was a world wide plot to get rid of the baby boomers just when they started to sponge off social security. Am I spreading lies or just my belief?

If you actually believe that, then your statement of belief is not a lie; you are just very ignorant.

Did you know the war in Kosovo was a conspiracy by Ford and GM to bomb the Yugo factory? Okay, I made that up. Same as the example used by the OP. Is stating a sincerely held belief a lie? I don’t think so. What if you are right and everyone else is wrong? The truth you tell is taken as a lie. Is it a lie then?

Are people ethically bound to tell the truth when the truth will get them excommunicated? I rarely deal with Mormons anymore, but their religion seems to be battery acid for their soul. It’s corrosive. That’s the cost of living the big lie. I’ve often wondered about the GAs. How they can just go along with the whole thing. They managed to fortify their bubbles so that scientific truths are basically irrelevant. What I remember from my TBM days is that science and philosophy simply don’t apply to Mormonism. Applying them to church teachings is nonsensical because revelations coming from the mouth of God are beyond reproach. It turns out that the GAs believe that too. That’s why you have Bednar and Holland and Oaks. The church is “true” to them and to those who consider them “the Lord’s mouthpiece”. Who knew the Lord had such a potty mouth? I don’t go back because I have standards.

It would be great if science could have the last word, but it’s not that kind of thing. Some questions are off limits to science. For example, is there or is there not a God? That is not an objective truth, as far as I know. It may be a subjective truth, which is where religion attempts to fill the void. In the Mormon mind, subjective truth trumps objective truth. It’s basically “mustard seed science”. You experiment with “the word” and feel whether it’s true for you. It’s folk mysticism. It’s seeing what cannot be seen with the five senses. The flip side is believing there’s nothing there so that is what you see.

So are the Mormons wrong? Or are they just doing it wrong? I’d go with the latter. Joseph Smith got some elements of Mormonism right, which is why it stuck. But then, the devil is in the details. The church is doing the best it can, which is piss poor. They sowed the seeds of what they have today. They are no longer Mormon and don’t deserve to be called such.

PHIL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe that covid 19 was a world wide plot to
> get rid of the baby boomers just when they started
> to sponge off social security.
===============================

Brilliant plot would be.
Where evidence is there?

- Yoda

Brilliant plot that would be.
Where evidence there is?

Just sounds better to me.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brilliant plot that would be.
> Where evidence there is?
>
> Just sounds better to me.
=========================

Lol!

You got it EB :-D

Or: it you have!

Brilliant plot that would be

If evidence we could see

It was a silly example to try to make a point.
If I do get it I'm dead meat since I have the typical underlying old guy stuff.

Much better.

lol a TBM and still on this board since 99

What are you in Provo, UT and don't get enough ward love cuz of too many mormons there

There is not one TBM that can say that the church hasn't lied in its presentation of the doctrine or history. You know the same guys that were toting since Maxwell's lace lettered speeches that omitting information is a sin the same as commission.

The church teaches lies directly to its members and missionaries and falls back on blaming the lay clergy and stupid members as its "get out of not having revelation" free card.

There is not one honest mormon person that can say the church never taught members or missionaries through their own handbooks the PR (or falsehood) version of the Book of Mormon translation and First Vision - all which are factually false to the events as they actually happened, if they indeed happened at all.

This one of a hundred different substantial things that make the church unequivocally false. So someone who goes along with that - knowing all the facts is either an idiot or con man, or in a mormon sense perhaps both.

covid came from china, maybe a lab, many viruses are spawned in china, remember the hong kong flu in 1968, sars. They don't have the FDA to inspect food over there. hopefully they baby boomers will stay alive, I'm 45 and all of my friends are in their 60's. GOt keep yourself fit and trim to not die of the covid. I'm 5'7 and 110, my other 5 family members are in the 300lb range. I'm scared of losing my family because of there obesity they are fatties.

(holding up the Title of Liberty and a snickers bar to entice to safety)

fortify those fatties! protect those portly among you!

Remember lies are necessary truth.
You have my word on that.

JS666, your comment is fully worthy of the original JS. Your racism is showing.

Actually, not even JS was that bad.

It ain't true just because you believe it. A lie is a lie is a lie.

I dont believe that! Name me one scientific study that proves your theory.

Someone say Stimulus? I got mine. I didn't ask for it and I don't need it; and really 400 dollars for how long now? 4 months. Not even close to paying the electric bill.
So I haven't yet. Just in case they ask for it back. I'll give it a few more months, then donate it to my bartenders and entertainers who don't get anything (gig employees)