I read comments on RFM that those who don't wear masks are dumb or inconsiderate. Masks are considered to be like the holy garments, with magic powers of protection. They make you feel safe.

But the experts don't seem to be as convinced. From the Annals of Internal Medicine, 18 June 2020.

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M20-3234?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed&;


quote

The goal of using N95 respirators, surgical masks, or cloth masks is to prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2 infection from asymptomatic or symptomatic infected persons to uninfected persons (source control). Currently, no direct evidence exists for the effectiveness or comparative effectiveness of various types of respirators or masks for preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection in community settings. Low-certainty evidence showed that mask use may reduce the risk for SARS-CoV-1 infection compared with no mask use in the community, but a major limitation of the studies is that they did not specify mask type. Low-certainty indirect evidence also found that N95 respirators may not reduce the risk for noncoronavirus respiratory infections compared with surgical masks or no masks, and moderate-certainty indirect evidence showed that surgical masks probably do not reduce the risk compared with no masks. For surgical masks, there was moderate-certainty evidence of nonserious harms, such as discomfort and difficulty in breathing, compared with no mask use, and low-certainty evidence showed that N95 respirators may not increase discomfort compared with surgical masks. The review identified no eligible studies on the use of cloth masks in community settings.


N95 respirators should not be used in a community setting, given the absence of demonstrated benefit, the possible harm with improper use (that is, the requirement for fit testing), and the global shortage of N95 respirators. Unlike N95 respirators, surgical masks and cloth masks do not require special fitting, making their use more practical if individual fitting is infeasible. Persons should seek guidance from the local community and statewide public health guidelines for mask use in light of the absence of evidence in the community setting to reduce the risk for transmission of SARS-CoV-2 infection. Factors to consider include exposure context (number of people, whether indoors or outdoors, ventilation), epidemiologic data (such as reproduction rate, daily case counts, hospitalizations, and deaths), and local demographics (such as high-risk populations). Individual values and preferences should be taken into account when deciding on the type of mask to use (surgical or cloth mask), because the benefits and harms for surgical versus cloth masks are finely balanced. The use of cloth masks in community settings has been encouraged by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) (4). The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends a risk-based approach for decision makers when recommending use of nonmedical masks, such as cloth masks, in the community setting (6). The WHO notes potential risks associated with mask use, including self-contamination (via improper handling of masks), breathing difficulties, and a false sense of security that could potentially detract from taking other precautions, such as physical distancing (6). Regardless of mask type, clinicians and public health officials should educate the general public about appropriate mask use.

are you telling us that you will not wear a mask ?

I wear a mask In public places because I don’t want to be harassed by people who are convinced of their efficacy. However, not all masks are created equal, nor do most people wear them properly. Social distancing and hand washing are much more important for disease prevention, but they are a lot harder to police.

I can see why masks are important right now, but I really hope they don’t become permanent fashion accessories. This issue is making people on both sides of the argument insufferable and uncivilized.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2020 04:00AM by knotheadusc.

Ask Dr.Fauci what he thinks of mask wearing vs. social distancing.

I'm sure if I'm not around other people, Dr. Fauci would say the mask is not necessary. If I'm in a crowd, then yes, they make sense. I avoid crowds, and until last weekend, have only left my neighborhood three times.

I know for a fact that many people do not change or launder their masks. I saw firsthand people putting them on and taking them off, touching them, fidgeting with them, rubbing their noses and eyes, and wearing masks made of all manner of materials.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2020 02:34AM by knotheadusc.

Notice that the above study DOES NOT say that masks don't help.
It says "Low-certainty evidence showed that mask use may reduce the risk for SARS-CoV-1 infection compared with no mask use in the community, but a major limitation of the studies is that they did not specify mask type."

What does low certainty evidence mean?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4671889/

"Level of evidence ratings for Cochrane reviews and other systematic reviews are assigned a baseline score of HIGH if RCTs were used, LOW if observational studies were used. The rating can be upgraded or downgraded based on adherence to the core criteria for methods, qualitative, and quantitative analyses for systematic reviews (there is a reference/evaluation table for this)"

In other words, there is no randomised controlled study addressing this issue. But the observational evidence SUPPORTS the idea that wearing masks reduces transmission.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

"The findings of this systematic review of 172 studies (44 comparative studies; n=25 697 patients) on COVID-19, SARS, and MERS provide the best available evidence that current policies of at least 1 m physical distancing are associated with a large reduction in infection, and distances of 2 m might be more effective. These data also suggest that wearing face masks protects people (both health-care workers and the general public) against infection by these coronaviruses, and that eye protection could confer additional benefit. However, none of these interventions afforded complete protection from infection, and their optimum role might need risk assessment and several contextual considerations. No randomised trials were identified for these interventions in COVID-19, SARS, or MERS."

"The use of face masks was protective for both health-care workers and people in the community exposed to infection, with both the frequentist and Bayesian analyses lending support to face mask use irrespective of setting. Our unadjusted analyses might, at first impression, suggest use of face masks in the community setting to be less effective than in the health-care setting, but after accounting for differential N95 respirator use between health-care and non-health-care settings, we did not detect any striking differences in effectiveness of face mask use between settings."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340603522_Face_Masks_Against_COVID-19_An_Evidence_Review

"The preponderance of evidence indicates that mask wearing reduces the transmissibility per contact by reducing transmission of infected droplets in both laboratory and clinical contexts. Public mask wearing is most effective at stopping spread of the virus when compliance is high. The decreased transmissibility could substantially reduce the death toll and economic impact while the cost of the intervention is low. Thus we recommend the adoption of public cloth mask wearing, as an effective form of source control, in conjunction with existing hygiene, distancing, and contact tracing strategies. We recommend that public officials and governments strongly encourage the use of widespread face masks in public, including the use of appropriate regulation."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-masks-study/widespread-mask-wearing-could-prevent-covid-19-second-waves-study-shows-idUSKBN23G37V

"Population-wide face mask use could push COVID-19 transmission down to controllable levels for national epidemics, and could prevent further waves of the pandemic disease when combined with lockdowns, according to a British study on Wednesday.

The research, led by scientists at the Britain’s Cambridge and Greenwich Universities, suggests lockdowns alone will not stop the resurgence of the new SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, but that even homemade masks can dramatically reduce transmission rates if enough people wear them in public.

The study found that if people wear masks whenever they are in public it is twice as effective at reducing the R value than if masks are only worn after symptoms appear.

In all scenarios the study looked at, routine face mask use by 50% or more of the population reduced COVID-19 spread to an R of less than 1.0, flattening future disease waves and allowing for less stringent lockdowns"

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-2567

"Physical distancing, hand hygiene, and disinfection of surfaces are the cornerstones of infection control during the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. At the same time, governments, international agencies, policymakers, and public health officials have been debating the validity of recommending use of nonmedical masks by the general public to reduce the transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). We believe that these decisions should be informed by evidence. Although no direct evidence indicates that cloth masks are effective in reducing transmission of SARS-CoV-2, the evidence that they reduce contamination of air and surfaces is convincing and should suffice to inform policy decisions on their use in this pandemic pending further research.

Cloth does not stop isolated virions. However, most virus transmission occurs via larger particles in secretions, whether aerosol (<5 µm) or droplets (>5 µm), which are generated directly by speaking, eating, coughing, and sneezing; aerosols are also created when water evaporates from smaller droplets, which become aerosol-sized droplet nuclei. The point is not that some particles can penetrate but that some particles are stopped, particularly in the outward direction. Every virus-laden particle retained in a mask is not available to hang in the air as an aerosol or fall to a surface to be later picked up by touch.

When we apply the principles of evidence-based medicine to public policy, there is high-quality, consistent evidence that many (but not all) cloth masks reduce droplet and aerosol transmission and may be effective in reducing contamination of the environment by any virus, including SARS-CoV-2. No direct evidence indicates that public mask wearing protects either the wearer or others. Given the severity of this pandemic and the difficulty of control, we suggest that the possible benefit of a modest reduction in transmission likely outweighs the possibility of harm."

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

"The study provides evidence that states in the US mandating use of face masks in public had a greater decline in daily COVID-19 growth rates after issuing these mandates compared to states that did not issue mandates. These effects are observed conditional on other existing social distancing measures and are independent of the CDC recommendation to wear facial covers issued on April 3. As countries worldwide and states begin to relax social distancing restrictions and considering the high likelihood of a second COVID-19 wave in the fall/winter,30 requiring use of face masks in public might help in reducing COVID-19 spread."

Thank you for these, [|].

It becomes a lot harder to find a point and draw a line once someone has produced six more points.

As long as it is Jim Carrey's mask, I'll wear it.

Somebody stop me!

"We all wear masks, metaphorically speaking" - Dr Neuman

FM has misinterpreted the Annals article

(But it is an interesting article - thanks!)

At least he's got proof now that he is not annal-retentive.

If you don't like wearing a mask, you are going to hate wearing a ventilator

Most people won’t be conscious for that. But yeah, leading up to needing one will suck. On the other hand, isn’t the mantra that you don’t wear a mask to protect yourself, but other people?

knotheadusc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... leading up to needing one will suck.

Literally. Sucking for air that isn't there for you.


> ... isn’t the mantra that you don’t
> wear a mask to protect yourself, but other people?

This is the part I think many people don't seem to get. Also, I fear that many don't care or just don't stop to think about it.

And it's not "just" to protect others (although that in itself should be enough motivation to do it) but it's to decrease the spread in general so health authorities can better manage the crisis; i.e. flatten the curve.

Prevent spread with the recommended measures of masks, handwashing, physical distancing. Then test and follow up positive tests with contact tracing to head off any potential infection spreading from those sources. Simple medical concept and plan.

They just need us all to play ball. Shouldn't be that difficult. And shouldn't be dependent on one's ideologies, beliefs, religion or political persuasion. It's a simple matter of public health measures being implemented to protect us all.

I can get on board with that. And if everyone, or most folks, are wearing masks, apart from the public health protection that provides, it helps to normalize something that seems foreign to most of us - mask wearing - and you soon get over any reservations or shyness about it as you're (hopefully) not the only one wearing a mask.

I feel much more confident being out and about when I'm wearing my little blue or pink masks. When people don't keep their distance I used to get very upset but now I am more relaxed about it, thanks to the mask (even though I know they say the COVID-infected droplets can infiltrate a mask). Still, I feel safer with one than without. Plus it feels good to be doing my part to help get us through to the other side. If that's all one can do it's a big help.

I have mostly been staying home because I hate wearing the mask. However, I did go out last weekend because it was my birthday. We stayed in a hotel twenty minutes from home. It's attached to a mineraltherme.

Frankly, I think the masks are more psychologically useful than anything else. Last weekend, I saw a lot of people wearing them improperly, taking them on and off, fidgeting with them, and rubbing their noses and eyes while wearing them. I also know that they don't get laundered or thrown out as they should be.

Here in Germany, almost no one wears the masks when they are outside, which suits me fine. They are only required indoors or when you can't be more than six feet (or 1.5 meters) away. But COVID-19 is not so bad here, aside from the big outbreak at the meat processing plant that happened in North Rhine Westphalia. People are also basically cooperative here. If I were in the States, I might feel very differently, because there are so many people behaving irresponsibly-- going to church, rioting, and hanging out at rallies. It's insane.

I am grateful to be in Germany for now. Hope we can stay longer.

I wear a mask in public because it's the right thing to do. You can't say anecdotally that mask wearing is ineffective because some people are messing it up.

Wear the damn thing. Please.

I do wear it, and follow the local requirements. There's no need to plead with me about it or explain how they work. I know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2020 01:41AM by knotheadusc.

And 1.5K new cases in an impoverished area (IOW, where the meatpacking plant employees live) is a big deal. It's a big deal for them and for everyone they come in contact with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2020 01:43AM by Beth.

Yes, I get it. I have a master's degree in public health, so I probably know more about masks than many people do. I've also read up a lot about the virus... the same stuff that gets posted ad nauseam on social media, as well as actual studies.

But I stay in my own house or neighborhood 95% of the time, and I honestly don't come into contact with people very much.

knotheadusc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I get it. I have a master's degree in public
> health, so I probably know more about masks than
> many people do. I've also read up a lot about the
> virus... the same stuff that gets posted ad
> nauseam on social media, as well as actual
> studies.

How do you think they should deal with the outbreak at the meatpacking plant? Can Storm Lake, IA learn anything from Germany?

I see COVID19 in the US as more of a psychological crisis than a medical one. If it were medical, we would have dealt with it the way many other countries have. The way Americans are conditioned to think has stymied containment. Having consideration for others and the community would solve the problem but it has to be cultural. Maybe masks don’t work, but that’s not the point. Solidarity is the point. Other people will feel unsafe if you don’t wear a mask. Making others feel safe is so easy. Just wear a mask. Any mask will do. What if we frame the argument in a way that the feelings of others matter? That they have a right to feel safe in their own communities? As a bonus, it would help solve policing problems.

"Listen here, you pinko, placating, crawl-on-yer-yellow-belly, stooge, better to die free than shackled in masks!!"

--Real Men, with Stubble and Firm Buttocks

> I see COVID19 in the US as more of a psychological
> crisis than a medical one.

It's more of a political crisis than a psychological one.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's more of a political crisis than a
> psychological one.

Or both, in some cases. :)

The secret to political success is psychological influence, so yes. I'm simply pointing out that in this instance there was a political decision to transform masks into a political litmus test.

"Masks are considered to be like the holy garments, with magic powers of protection. They make you feel safe."

--------------------

Once again, Free Man wilfully misinterprets the evidence and conclusions. Why does Free Man do this? Because Free Man is dishonestly trying to push his own agenda onto the rest of us.

From the quote supplied by Free Man:

"Low-certainty indirect evidence also found that N95 respirators may not reduce the risk for noncoronavirus respiratory infections compared with surgical masks or no masks… N95 respirators should not be used in a community setting"

Great, so don’t wear N95s. Those ought to be reserved for health care professionals on the hospital front lines anyway.

"moderate-certainty indirect evidence showed that surgical masks probably do not reduce the risk compared with no masks"

Okay, skip the surgical masks as well, if you want to. But *cloth* masks?

"The review identified no eligible studies on the use of cloth masks in community settings… The use of cloth masks in community settings has been encouraged by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)"

And this is from a portion of the article that Free Man did not quote:

"Data on SARS-CoV-2 are limited. These practice points are based on the best available evidence on the effectiveness of N95 respirators, surgical masks, and cloth masks in reducing transmission of infection with SARS-CoV-1, Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV), and influenza-like or other respiratory viruses in community and health care settings."

These studies are not specific to COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2), but were done on viruses similar to COVID-19. Remember that COVID-19 is a novel (new) coronavirus.

--------------------

Masks are not considered to be "magic." Neither is wearing masks supposed to make the wearer "feel safe," although it may have that effect.

The purpose of wearing a mask is not to protect the mask wearer from others, but to guard against the wearer inadvertently transmitting the virus to others in the event the wearer is infected yet not exhibiting symptoms.

So yes, not wearing a mask around other people is in fact inconsiderate. What's dumb is trying to justify assholery with "muh freedom," invoking the constitution, or turning it political.

Oh, and wearing a mask has never been claimed to be fail-safe. I believe the effect is to reduce the chances of transmission from around 17% to 3%. Nothing is perfect, not even condoms, to which Free Man's parents can ruefully attest.

https://www.businessinsider.com/face-masks-social-distancing-curb-spread-coronavirus-research-2020-6

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/optimal-physical-distancing-facial-protection-reduce-covid-19/story?id=71019436

Like his fellow traveler Jordan, Free Man can leave us, but he can't leave us alone.

I'm posting this out of interest.

Projections for Arizona:

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/arizona

Look at the second graph down, "Daily deaths". Arizona could crush this thing if everyone wears a mask.

Utah:

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/utah

Ditto for Utah. Utah could crush Covid by wearing masks.

Idaho:

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/idaho

Idaho is doing well anyway. Masks would help, but are less of a factor than in Arizona and Utah.

Check other states here. Look to the far right of the grid for the projections for each state:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

"Masks are considered to be like the holy garments, with magic powers of protection. They make you feel safe."

Uh, no. The primary benefit of wearing masks is to protect others. Why is that such a difficult concept to embrace?

Lets look at two scenarios at the opposite extremes: 1) masks are ultimately shown to do nothing to stop the spread of COVID-19. In that case, the price you pay is an extremely minor inconvenience of wearing a mask in public. 2) Masks are shown to be extremely important in slowing the spread of the virus. In this case, you can literally save lives by making the tiniest effort.

How the F...rick is the even debatable?!?!?!?!?!?

And when it comes to people who insist that it's their "right" to not wear masks in public: During the Battle of Britain, did Londoners have the "right" to leave their curtains open with their lights on during government ordered blackouts? During WW2, did Americans have the "right" to ignore government ordered rationing, and buy whatever they pleased? Do drunk driving laws interfere with personal rights? (Believe it or not, many people made that very argument when stricter laws were proposed in the 70s).

People who don't want to wear masks aren't defending rights, they're defending an over-inflated sense of entitlement. I suspect they got to many participation trophies when growing up.

CrispingPin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And when it comes to people who insist that it's
> their "right" to not wear masks in public: During
> the Battle of Britain, did Londoners have the
> "right" to leave their curtains open with their
> lights on during government ordered blackouts?
> During WW2, did Americans have the "right" to
> ignore government ordered rationing, and buy
> whatever they pleased? Do drunk driving laws
> interfere with personal rights? (Believe it or
> not, many people made that very argument when
> stricter laws were proposed in the 70s).

Very good comparisons - memorable and so applicable. Public safety trumps personal rights in many instances.

I heard a woman the other day say, in effect, that she has the right, as an American, to choose not to wear a mask and the right to get COVID if that's her choice. I thought maybe she had been drinking. Rights are good. Rights are desirable. We all want rights. But the right to be appallingly stupid as well as dangerous is low on the list of inalienable rights, especially in the face of a public health crisis.

Very well said, Nighty. It's about the COMMUNITY, not the mask-wearer.

So get with the program, you selfish jackasses!! It isn't about YOU!!

Sorry, but I'm crankier today than usually. I did a lot of yard work yesterday, and most of me aches miserably, to pay for it.

This story is a good reminder to all of us. It concerns a family gathering of 25 in Texas. Everyone tried to socially distance. One nephew, who works in construction, attended the party with a cough that he thought was due to his job. The result -- 18 family members have tested positive. Three have been hospitalized, with the elderly parents/grandparents both being critically ill.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/coronavirus/family-shaken-after-18-relatives-test-positive-for-covid-19-after-birthday-party/ar-BB15WrOM?ocid=msedgntp

The virus doesn't care what we think or believe. It doesn't care about our religious views. It doesn't care about our political views. It is equal-opportunity.

All it takes is one mistake. Stay safe, people. Follow the rules -- all of them. Wear a mask, socially distance, avoid large crowds, stay home if you have a cough or otherwise feel unwell, get tested if you are unsure. Take care of yourself; Take care of others.

There was a joke at the beginning of the outbreak: Our parents and grandparents were asked to go to war. We are being asked to sit on our sofas and watch movies. We can do this!

Wearing a mask for most is no more than an *inconvenience*. Wear I live, masks are mandatory when out in public, and people slip them on before exiting their cars while hardly thinking about it. Are we really saying that we can't be inconvenienced? I thought Americans were made of tougher stuff than that.

I hear spurious claims from certain parties that wearing masks is somehow *harmful*. That's a complete crock.

If it were true, health professionals would be dropping left and right after their 12 hour surgical shifts. And anyone who was or is in the military would also call BS, what with the gas mask training and NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical agent) drills in NBC equipment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2020 01:26PM by helamonster.

I have come down with a cold this week. At least I hope it is a cold. Or do I? If it is Covid-19, it is an extremely wimpy case. I suppose that would be a good thing.

It is a little disconcerting because I am retired, and can live a pretty isolated life. I hardly go out, grocery run now and then, maybe a walk around the neighborhood, which is pretty deserted.

I still managed to get infected with something. That's kind of scary, even if it is just a cold. A week ago I did forget to wash my hands immediately after returning from a shopping trip. Could have been that. I also pull my mask down to get phone facial recognition to work for using phone to pay. That puts fingers right by nose. Could have been that.


And, at the risk of damaging thedesertrat1's recovery:
The Utah State Epidemiologist said Utah needs to get new cases below 200 a day by July 4 to avoid another shutdown. It was 140 a day from April 1 through May 24, at which point it started to climb

Case reports tend to fall every weekend, which affects the reported cases on Sunday and Monday. Reports for the last 3 days (Tu, We, Th) were just under 400, 500 and 600. Two hundred by next weekend ain't gonna happen.

The Cache County region is just under 1400 cases now.

Little old Evanston, WY, made it to late May with only 10 cases. Now they have 128 confirmed and 34 probable.

Sweden now has a higher per capita death rate than the US. The other Scandinavian countries have closed their borders to Swedes.

Canada has already closed its border to Americans. We closed our border to Canadians too, but that was more face-saving/tit-for-tat than any health threat from Canada. We will find out in a few days if Europe (Shengen countries) will allow Americans to travel there or not.

New York, New <bleeping> York, for God's sake, is quarantining visitors from Utah and other high-infection states.


For those who were betting Covid-19 would fade away during the summer, you lost your bet. It is now summer.

If you're wearing your mask on your annals, you're doing it wrong.

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you're wearing your mask on your annals, you're
> doing it wrong.


These are the same geniuses you find wearing their undies on their head!

>> "These are the same geniuses you find wearing their undies on their head!"

I've been known to do that with my wifes undies while folding laundry with her.

We have a care giver come once a week to stay with my wifes elderly mom. She makes masks and made me a dark blue one. It looks like something a male stripper would wear. I may justhave to try that.

Now we see what happens when an AP goes astray, ay?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2020 06:24PM by Lot's Wife.

I'm about as astray as you can get from an AP. I'm surprised I haven't been picked up by the humane society yet.

Good thing your wife had you chipped!

Chipped and, very possibly, clipped.

Clipped, yes. Chipped, no, unless you mean that thing on my shoulder.

Interchangeability: that's where it's at. (File that patent now!)

We get covid from another person who has it.
All the fuss (from a scientific perspective) is how best to disrupt viral transmission.

Either distance (won't get it solo in the middle of the Mojave Desert) or some physical barrier (sealed space suit with oxygen supply) -- these extremes are effective. Everything else is "something in between" these poles.

N95 takes a little training to apply effectively - problem is the circumference of the mask. So need to know how to use it (and not have a beard) otherwise it is useless. Cloth masks much easier therefore more effective without training. (Remember, even N95 is only 95% effective - how it gets its name). That's all this article says.

Interesting that quarantine was known and used effectively during bubonic plague so it's nothing new (village Eyam)

For a multiplicity of factors, this is a bad virus. You don't want to get it.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7f167772c221e4a4dd305aef4a58ac52c0b1da38/0_0_4819_2142/master/4819.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=c0a4939ab65ff47200e6c603e282ae2c

Okay, this would work too

Anti mask, anti-vaxx, anti-science.

Yup.