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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 03:45PM

LW said: "I would especially recommend what EB says, since this isn't really about law"


LW earlier said: "...by modern legal standards, indistinguishable from an act of violence."

Congratulations on your 180 degree turn-around, almost well executed!!


reprise: I did not apologize for nor excuse what MKL did, that's all from someone's imagination.

As posters here, we're each entitled to our own views & opinions, do U agree?

you claimed that others agree with you, 'fine' but popularity doesn't need to change others' views, opinions or comments.

I would have preferred that & this thread be about compassion, empathy, both for victims & perps AND the Uber - Ultra judgmental nature of the LDS culture: I HATE THAT!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2020 04:01PM by GNPE.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:02PM

You write:

> I would have preferred that & this thread be about
> compassion, empathy, both for victims & perps.

Yes, you call for "empathy... for... perps." As you intimated in the previous thread, you think people should empathize with rapists.


--------------
You previously wrote:

> I cannot equate violence with having sexual relations even in a > lopsided age difference.

So a physical rape is worse than a rape based on abuse of authority? That is of course a barbaric view, one rejected by psychology and by the justice system in the decades since you failed to complete your first year of law school.


-----------------
You wrote:

> LW, Beth: Do you have Any legal education to make the
> statements you've made here?

I was answering your question. To act now as if I was reversing myself when I did so is moronic.

GNPE, there are people on this board who have a much deeper understanding of law than what you obtained from a couple of courses in the 1960s. That you are handicapped in this field should be evident from your failed predictions about Lori Vallow. But for some reason you refuse to learn.


-------------
Indeed this discussion should be about compassion and empathy. But not for the perpetrator. In the 1960s people thought that rapists deserved empathy; it was not a good era for victims. In fact, very few people today are so clueless as to express that retrograde opinion openly.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:06PM

If I want or require your OK on whom to have compassion for or who to empathize with, I'll ask you beforehand, OK?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:11PM

Absolutely.

But I will not ask your permission for calling out someone who pretends to be both a legal scholar and a friend of the victims of sexual assault but who in fact equivocates, advocating compassion and empathy for rapists.

If you don't like it, take your own advice from the other thread and stop posting on the topic.

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 06:23PM

It should come as no surprise that I have empathy for rapists, perpetrators and people who abuse children.

I can't imagine having a brain that works like that. It must be pure torture. Would I gladly kill one of them before they did harm? Sure. In general do I empathize? Yes.

I made that point on here long ago to which Don (the writer here) replied.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 06:28PM

My father sexually abused children. My mother emotionally and verbally abused these same adopted children.

Do I empathize with them?

NOUN
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

No.

Do I have compassion for them? As my parents, yes.

noun
noun: compassion; plural noun: compassions
sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:11PM

The fact that her marrying her victim wasn't seen as Old Testament (rape as a marriage proposal) ethics of abuse and control is informative about our culture.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:05PM

> AND
> the Uber - Ultra judgmental nature of the LDS
> culture: I HATE THAT!!

Refusing to condemn a rapist is itself a judgment, and a condemnation of the victim to the hell in which that victim is forced to live.

Run from that fact if you will, but the truth is that you are a highly judgmental person.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:10PM

MKL died or cancer at age 58.

she didn't ask for that, millions die from cancer every year, why should we NOT have empathy & compassion for each & all?

to say, write or suggest that she deserved that ... Wow.

If U need to condemn her for her mistakes...

'let he who is without sin first cast a stone', amen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2020 04:11PM by GNPE.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:14PM

I never said she "deserved" her death, so we can put that canard to rest.

As for the rape, if you don't "condemn her for her mistakes," you are a coward.

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 06:24PM

"Run from that fact if you will, but the truth is that you are a highly judgmental person."

lol

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:28PM

Lots of people make mistakes, some serious, others not.

the Mormons say that everyone has to get the BIG OK from JS whether or not they can go to the CK, that's my point on how the Mormons (context for these posts) are over-the-edge judgmental.

YOU get to be as judgmental as pleases YOU,

I'll make my own decisions, TYVM....

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:32PM

Tell me where I, or anyone else, demanded that you not make your own decisions.

But if you decide to defend rapists at the expense of those raped, have at it, some of us may choose to register our astonishment at your lack of moral clarity.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:35PM

you are Hopelessly twisting what I said (actually Didn't Say), to meet your own views/ideas/opinion(s)/imagination.


Do you INSIST that you get to make these decision for everyone on this board, Everyone in the U.S. / the World, or just me?

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 04:50PM

>> "you are Hopelessly twisting what I said (actually Didn't Say), to meet your own views/ideas/opinion(s)/imagination."

You appear to be hopelessly trying to paint LW into a corner.....and it isn't working.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 09:20PM


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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 06:07PM

I quoted your words, GNPE. If you disagree with them, I propose you take the issue up with yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2020 06:17PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: ufotofu ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 05:21PM

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... ... .. .
> I would have preferred that this thread be about compassion, empathy, AND the Uber - Ultra judgmental nature of the LDS culture: I HATE THAT!!
>

What IS it about?

Certainly not MKL, like the title suggests.

Sounds more like a critical argument, someone trying to prove a point, or anything but Mary Kay letourneau or (Recovery From MorMonIsM) LDS cult.

I'm not here to argue, but it has nothing to do with the title, or the subject, for that matter.

You guys and girls can hash it out but I'm going back to my regularly scheduled programming: deprogramming.

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Posted by: ufotofu ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 05:29PM

> ... that's my point on how the Mormons ([supposed to be] context for these posts) are over-the-edge judgmental.

YOU get to be as judgmental as pleases YOU,
>

Over-The-Edge JUDGEMENTAL...

As Judgemental As Pleases You...

*°^= Please =^°*

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 06:07PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/he-was-abused-by-a-female-teacher-but-he-was-treated-like-the-criminal/2015/01/09/3f2e7980-96d5-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html


For male victims of sexual abuse, this is how it goes. Growing evidence shows that boys who are sexually preyed upon by older female authority figures suffer psychologically in much the same way that girls do when victimized by older men. But in schools, courts and law offices, male victims are treated openly with a double standard, according to interviews with a dozen experts in law, psychology and social work. Some say boys should get the same protective care that girls do; other people who work with these cases argue that male teens are driven by raging hormones and are only too happy to explore their new sexuality with older women. But all of the experts agree that the discrepancy in the treatment of victims of nonviolent sexual abuse by their high school teachers is real. And it shows: Male victims typically receive lower awards in civil cases, the experts say, and female perpetrators get lighter sentences.

There is a clear hierarchy in courtrooms, lawyers say. Cases involving a male teacher and a female student result in the most severe punishments and the highest damages. Los Angeles-based lawyer David Ring, whose firm Taylor & Ring represents plaintiffs in sexual abuse suits, has worked on hundreds of teacher-student cases and says it’s not unusual for those against male teachers to end with judgments of more than $1 million. In one example, a jury awarded $5.6 million to a high school girl in a sexual abuse case involving her 40-year-old teacher. The teacher was convicted of a felony, sentenced to a year in jail and ordered to pay 40 percent of the civil damages to the student, who was 14 at the time of the encounters. (Chino Valley High School was ordered to pay the other 60 percent.)


But jurors and prosecutors don’t have nearly the same outrage for abusive female teachers, Ring says: “ ‘So what? Good for him.’ That’s how society looks at it.” Male students, in his experience, rarely collect damages of more than $200,000. In November, Clarkson settled his case against Cretin-Derham Hall High School for $75,000. The case against Gagne settled for just $1.

Clarkson’s attorney, Sarah Odegaard, says her team made a strategic choice: They stood to win a larger award from the school, so they agreed to a token gesture from Gagne in lieu of a trial in which she would have denied the sexual relationship. In cases like this — with “an attractive, young female” defendant — jury bias doesn’t work in favor of the victim, Odegaard says. “It’s not a bias we want to acknowledge, but we have to,” she says. “There have been some successes involving female teachers and coaches, but more often, you see lower verdicts.”

Exact comparisons between cases are difficult to make; every case is unique. Sentences and monetary damages are shaped by the number and type of sexual encounters, the age of the victim relative to the state’s age of consent, and — rightly or wrongly — the level of suffering the victim displayed during the investigation, among other factors. But while there’s no data tracking the nationwide disparity in how male and female sexual abuse victims are treated (one possible reason: male abusers tend to be significantly older than their female victims, which leads to larger penalties, according to several lawyers who work on these cases), everybody seems to agree that the disparity exists.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 06:31PM

There you go again, assuming that facts matter. . .

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 09:50PM

I see a big correlation to Mormon culture, which normalizes the male as the sexual aggressor role. There was a speaker at the Youth Conference I went to in the late 1970s pushing this idea that guys are supposed to push for sex and girls are supposed to resist. The insanity of such a philosophy is still burned into my brain. What are we, a church of out of control poon hounds? Well, it turns out Joseph Smith and Brigham Young needed more sympathy than I was currently aware.

I can see how the statutory rape of teenagers (such as Helen Mar Kimball) can be tantamount to incest. In this case, the teacher is one side of an Oedipus complex. It’s not much different from incest since the teacher is almost a surrogate mom.

I’ve been out of the church for a while now, but I think BYU still takes the victim blaming position when a female student is raped because she didn’t fight hard enough. That would imply that guys wouldn’t fight because they want it. Our society has some really distorted views of sex. Come to think of it, Mormonism his distorted views on a lot of things.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 09, 2020 01:57PM

Human Natures have some really distorted views of sex when compared to a compassionate and caring view of life. It is what it is and something to overcome in my opinion - not exploit like Joe and Brigham did for their natures.

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Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: July 08, 2020 09:42PM

On a similar matter, did any of the victims that Bountiful teacher Brianne Altice rape get any monetary relief for her crimes?

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Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: July 09, 2020 12:29AM

Male teacher, female student, $1,000,000.

Female teacher, male student, $00.00.

Does that seem fair?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 09, 2020 12:46AM

It sounds terrible--if not surprising.

Society has a very long way to go.

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Posted by: Lowpriest ( )
Date: July 10, 2020 06:54PM

I find a lot of the conversion about the woman difficult to endure. It reminds me of my mormon experience.

What she did was wrong. It was unconscionable. I don't see any way to excuse it. Perhaps she was insane.

However, once the series of events starts, it changes everything that happens afterward.

This youth, a boy, was forever changed by the actions of this adult. Whatever he did after she raped him was also not entirely under his control. She forever diminished his ability to make rational decisions.

So, there you have it. A woman who was evil or insane breaks the psyche of a child. Now we try to make sense of this mess and pass judgement.

My metaphor -

The mormon church does something very similar. It convinces parents to lie to their children for reasons that is says are good. It recruits new members who are already broken, wounded, or predators themselves. It fills them with lies, poor reasoning, and bad habbits. It brain washes them and then tells them to make more babies and to send it money. The mormon church is evil and it makes people do evil things while telling them that they are righteous and heaven bound.

Like the woman who is the subject of this thread, the mormon church is either evil or insane. It creates a flock of followers who think that they are loved. And it creates controversy whenever it is discussed.

For whatever virtue the perpetrators have or had, it is good that they are gone. I grieve at the loss of human life, but I do not grieve at the loss of evil.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 10, 2020 06:58PM

Very well put.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 10, 2020 07:20PM

I agree.

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