That is the subject line of an email sent to me by my mother's slightly older sister. (Some years ago, I placed a commentary here about this same woman trying to get me to go back to my Roman Catholic roots and reattend church.)

https://youtu.be/jV2qFsdzrrs

"Please take time to listen to this. He wants to find a way to have local Sheriffs provide us protection if we are being forced to take the vacciine and come to our door."

I am really tempted to respond to this by saying in effect:

"Please follow this advice if you really wish to have you, your loved ones, and perfect strangers murdered by drowning (for that is the effect of COVID-19 on those who get it), you dumb ass!"

I'm sure glad I don't believe in forever families! I certainly don't want to run in to this prick in my afterlife!

I'll take all the vaccines I can get.

It may turn out that way.
We'll have to get COVID boosters every other month. Some evidence immunity doesn't last that long.

But then you'll wake up a micro-chipped minion of Bill Gates and George Soros, and issues of the Worker's Daily will magically start appearing in your mailbox.

I hate it when that happens

Have not heard of them being forced up here but I will get it. Antivaxers can go pound sand, get sick and die.

My feelings exactly. If this were taking the lives of children, as the Measles does, it would be one thing. I'd be fighting for forced vaccines. But as long as I get vaccinated, I don't care how many anti-vaxers want to take their chances.

I remember when polio vaccine came out. I was maybe 6 or 7. We didn't have to go stand in line to get our sugar cube (the oral polio) because my mother who was a nurse, volunteered at the health dept to help with the clinics so she brought ours home to give us. But I remember seeing the lines. She also brought home a couple boxes of plain sugar cubes. We'd never heard of them since we didn't drink coffee so we thought they were the greatest thing ever.

Point is, all adults knew people who had been crippled (at the very least) by polio. No one felt forced to get the vaccine, they were clamoring for it. Maybe by the time the Covid vaccine comes out, everyone will have had friends or close family members suffer or die from it. But unlike the early 60s, they will still be giving up their "rats" if they are forced to get it. Fine. Who cares.

I was touched by polio about 6 months before the vaccine came out. Also called "infantile paralysis" back then. Scary. High fever, legs didn't work, 2 weeks in hospital. I got lucky.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2020 11:13PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

You sure did. A church member in the ward I grew up in, later bishop and stake president, had a limp his entire life due to having had polio as a child. I also had a middle school teacher who was even slightly more disabled from it. How wonderful it is that we no longer have to even think about it.

I feel the same way, in fact I'll gladly line up for the Covid vaccine, and any boosters that might be required. I'm one of those who gets a flu shot every fall, so I'm fine with getting regular Covid vaccines if that's what it takes.

Will the local sheriffs provide us protection if we are being forced to wear seat belts and motorcycle helmets ?

I wish they'd force those fools in Vancouver, WA and Portland, OR to get their kids vaccinated. What is okay about the measles? NOTHING is okay about the measles. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

W/r/t Covid-19: Bring on the shots.

+Vaxer:
Thanks, Vaxer.

~~~~iceman9090

No need now. There’s social distancing and masks. Isn’t Covid nice?

Hell yes. Bring it on quick. By the way, I really liked the polio vacine I had awhile back. That one worked out really well. I also enjoyed the regular tenatus vac's because I don't like lockjaw. The diptheria, typoid, and measles vac's were cool too. I figure this COVID vaccine will pan out well to.

I'm truly sorry, but apparently I have unleashed EOD-19...

But at least you'll have the comfort of knowing that if there ever is a vaccine, I'll pay YOU to take it.

Again, my deepest apologies.

What are the symptoms?

Intelligence, beautiful girlfriend, excessively developed sense of irony, and a ponytail.

Also incessant problems locating that favorite necktie and a history of beds with prematurely broken bedposts.

I'm shocked. Elderolddog has a... a.... PONYTAIL?

Oh dear

Naturally-curly-haired-and-therefore-unponytailed Tom in Paris

I am growing back my mullet though! :-D

In fact I don't really know about the ponytail nor, sheepishly, the intelligence.

But the rest of what I wrote is the truth and nothing but the truth, so help me Carl Sagan!

I just measured... My ponytail, or rather my stallion-tail, is now 7" long from where I put my scrunchy.

I like how effeminate it makes me feel; Saucie and I sometimes spend hours waiting for the other to open the door...

Why are people talking about being forced to take a vaccine?

~~~~iceman9090

They are people suffering from malignant metastatic paranoid individualism. It's not a pretty sight.

Because they are trying to force masks.,....that is why

Appalling, isn’t it? If we don’t draw a line in the sand here and now, the next thing you know they’ll be demanding people wear shoes and shirts in restaurants or even seat belts in cars.

We might as well be in North Korea.

What's all this talk I hear about forced vacations? Why should a person have to take a vacation if they would rather work? Or maybe they just don't like the destination or the people they have to go with? Why would any one force someone to do that? Maybe they'll, get food poisoning in some restaurant or bedbugs in some cheap motel and they'll get depressed and ill and . . .

Vaccinations?

Oh. That's different.


Never mind.

Typically it takes 8-10 years to make a vaccine. It took 28 years to make a chicken-pox vaccine. And despite hundreds of billions of dollars researching AIDS, a vaccine has yet to be developed for HIV. Please think about that.

Also, bear in mind that the usual protocols for developing and testing vaccines have been waived. So if a covid-19 vaccine is presented, know that it has skipped over the usual scientific method for vaccine creation and testing.

I strongly urge caution going forward.

Rushing out to be first in line for a covid-19 vaccine is rushing out to be human guinea pig. If you’re okay with that, fine. But don’t pretend it’s otherwise.

I personally won’t be lining-up for a covid-19 vaccine any time soon.

Human

I agree

Develop a vaccine first. Then talk about it!

I can't imagine anyone requiring an adult to get a Covid vaccine.

Required vaccines for school attendance are another matter. I don't think it will be required, but it's not a given.

I remember getting the polio vaccine (on sugar cubes) at school when I was a child. When the vaccine becomes available, I would like to discuss with my union the possibility of children and even families being able to get the vaccine at their neighborhood school, if they so desire.

As long as polio is being mentioned, please note that polio was a summertime virus. Not all viruses are more active in the winter. The conventional wisdom was that Covid-19 would die down in the summer, because the flu does, but as we are finding out more and more, this is not the flu, and it is not going away for the summer. Or if this is in fact the slow season, God help us in the late fall.

It's not polio either, but it is a new virus, and we are going to discover that our assumptions about it are sometimes incorrect. We still don't know how long immunity lasts, because nobody has had it long enough to serve as benchmarks.


I remember the polio vaccine sugar cubes too, and also the closing of city swimming pools when a polio outbreak was in progress.

California used to allow parents to opt out of vaccines for the children based on personal beliefs, until a couple years ago when there were various measles outbreaks in the state. Measles is the most infectious virus known, and you need like 95% immunity to get effective herd immunity. A few children can't take vaccines because of badly compromised immune systems, so the vast majority of everyone else needs to be immunized to protect those children.

Anyway, CA dumped the "personal beliefs" exemption for at least the measles vaccine. I don't know about other vaccines. The only way to not have to get it was to get an exemption letter from your doctor certifying a compromised immune system. If the state challenged it, the doctor would have to provide test results that backed up the certification. If there were no test results, and the doc just wrote the letter, doc could be have medical license revoked, or worse.


BTW, I have friends in Canada. Learned an interesting factoid. Americans are not even allowed in the country except for health care workers living in US and working in Canada. There are some of those. Also, for Canadians returning to the country, they have to let them in, but they are quarantined for 14 days.

Here's the kicker: the fine for breaking quarantine is C$750,000. That's about a half million US. I imagine that is an "up to" fine amount, but still.... They are not horsing around.

BoJ said:

"...BTW, I have friends in Canada. Learned an interesting factoid. Americans are not even allowed in the country except for health care workers living in US and working in Canada. There are some of those. Also, for Canadians returning to the country, they have to let them in, but they are quarantined for 14 days.

"Here's the kicker: the fine for breaking quarantine is C$750,000. That's about a half million US. I imagine that is an "up to" fine amount, but still.... They are not horsing around."

I just about fell over yesterday when I heard that the amount of the fine is up to that high. They started out with $1000.00 tickets handed out to people who were crossing the border, saying they were going to their home in Alaska (apparently a popular loophole some people are taking advantage of) and then going off to various locations in B.C. or Alberta parks and camp sites, without quarantining. There is a concern about such "tourists" stopping in gas stations, restaurants and washrooms along the path of their journey. All of this potentially can spread the virus, obviously.

There is an issue here now of some people hassling anyone driving a vehicle with US licence plates. There are constant reminders to give people leeway - they could well be in the "essential worker" category (which includes truck drivers as well as the others BoJ mentioned), a student on a visa from pre-COVID times (still allowed to be here), someone married to a Canadian citizen recently who hasn't had a chance yet to get their BC licence plates (there is a delay in any government processing here at the moment, including obtaining or renewing driver's licences and other permits, due to CV), or others in allowable categories that are not immediately obvious to casual onlookers. We are losing our rep as a friendly nation due to some hotheads hassling American visitors/workers without knowing their full stories of why they're here. And they are not accountable anyway to any casual citizen on the street to explain their presence.

Unfortunately, there are frequent accounts now of Americans (or people driving cars with US plates, assumed to be American citizens) being hassled verbally, at least, by angry/anxious BC'ers worried about the virus coming into Canada. (In BC we have a low rate of infection after hard work early on of locking down and staying in and observing all recommendations for several months. We want to keep it this way, obviously). There was a recent incident of vandalism to a car with US plates - reason unknown but suspected to be due to COVID concerns - obviously an unwarranted action.

A local reporter constantly tells us on the radio: "Don't be COVID cops". I hope people are listening and heeding his words. Best to let government officials respond as necessary.

Another concern is American boaters coming in. Hopefully they are aware that the maritime rules are the same as for land borders. But people are quite het up about that potential loophole too.

When asked yesterday about Americans being seen around and about, causing Canadians concern about potential infection, the BC premier said first that we should not jump to conclusions (i.e. don't hassle people about their licence plates) but then his advice to Americans who are legitimately in our midst was "take the bus or ride a bike". Also not too friendly and likely impractical for many. He's widely expected to apologize for coming across as perhaps too harsh.

We've had recent instances too of younger Canadians wanting to have summer parties and not observing the mask/distance/hygiene approach; crowding into houseboats and bars and sure enough someone has the virus and then you get an outbreak.

So, it's everybody having to be informed and aware, thinking of others, and protecting themselves before we come through this thing in the best shape possible.

Meanwhile, you can only do what you can do to protect yourself and hunker down for the longer term, as the virus seems to be sticking with us for the foreseeable.

For the record, I don't blame people for being anxious and perhaps over-reacting at times. I have felt irritation or anger myself when a stranger carelessly gets in my face when I'm out on errands, wearing a mask, trying to distance, hoping to avoid either spreading or catching the thing.

Meanwhile, if someone doesn't even attempt to observe the safety guidelines here, maybe a huge fine will be a wake-up call. It could be hard to collect though but that's another issue for the future.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2020 04:08PM by Nightingale.

Honestly, IMO Canada should turn Americans around at the border who claim to have a home in Alaska unless those Americans can produce an Alaskan driver's license or ID.

That's what a lot of Cdns are saying. I think we're a bit late to a party sometimes. Too trusting. And we already have our own people skirting rules. Some houseboaters partying recently ended up with 80 of them infected and causing 1000 others not involved in the party to have to isolate for 14 days - inconvenient, annoying, alarming.

We don't have anything against Americans but certainly are watching with major concern how things are going virus-wise down there for you all. Our thoughts are with you.

> We don't have anything against Americans . . .

Yeah, yeah, some of your best friends are Americans. You just want to build that wall to enhance Canada's curb appeal.

I'm on my way to Pender Island in a few days, hoping my Alberta plates don't get us into too much trouble.

As you know, many Albertans have 2nd homes in B.C. We've heard a mixed bag of experiences from Alberta friends venturing into your neck of the woods. Some dirty looks at the gas pumps, we've heard. If that's the worst of it, no problem.

Nightingale, have you noticed the oddity of B.C.'s testing regime? Why has B.C. tested the fewest citizens per capita, by far, than the rest of the major Provinces?

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/coronavirustracker/

California children have to be vaccinated IN ORDER TO ATTEND SCHOOL (public or private). If parents are willing to homeschool, they may opt out.

I wish the un-vaccinated without proper medical exemptions could be kept out of public places, such in theaters, amusement parks, etc, but the logistics of doing such would be unwieldy.

Stella Immanuel, a Houston area physician who is gaining traction in conservative quarters for her ideas, has had a video removed from Facebook, Twitter, etc. for promoting false medical advice.

Here is a sampling of some of her more entertaining ideas --

"Immanuel said in a 2015 sermon that alien DNA is used in medical treatments. In another 2015 sermon, she claimed that researchers are currently working on a vaccine to prevent individuals from being religious. In the same 2015 sermon in which she references alien DNA, she said that the government is run by 'reptilians,' not humans."

Unfortunately, I am seeing otherwise sensible people who are taking medical advice from this woman.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/doctor-retweeted-by-trump-has-warned-of-alien-dna-sex-with-demons/ar-BB17iaN4

Hey, watch the skeptical attitude. Yesterday the president, even Donald J. Trump, retweeted a bunch of her stuff about how there is already a cure available for the pandemic and trumpeting the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine as a COVID-19 treatment. If the president, even Donald J. Trump, approves of Immanuel's work, who are you to question it?

Knowing how your scurrilous mind works, I'd go further and warn you not to try to discredit the good doctor, even Stella Immanuel, in other ways. It would be unfair, for instance, if you objected that she is a pediatrician with no expertise in epidemiology or if you dragged up that embarrassing ponzi scheme investigation in 2008.

You have been warned, summer, about the dangers of challenging the state cult. So don't EVEN try it.

Ooh, it's one of the lead stories on the CBS Evening News.

Another nutty idea that I've seen bandied about is that somehow 10-20% herd immunity is enough to stop this beast.

The secret to Mormonism and much more: once you have surrendered your soul to the conspiracy theory, it is no longer a conspiracy theory.

And all contrary evidence immediately becomes part of the conspiracy, thus making it completely impossible to disprove.

I am dangerously close to getting nuked for this comment but I just saw a live news conference where DJT doubled down on his support of this MD's ideas, although he added "I don't know anything about her". It's very mysterious how he keeps insisting on the efficacy of HCQ. Please, please, people: check things out with your own (trusted) MD.

Allow me to see how your scurrilous mind works, LW.


Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> and trumpeting the
> efficacy of hydroxychloroquine as a COVID-19
> treatment.

Is the medical opinion of Yale's Dr. Harvey Risch automatically vitiated solely because he went on Fox News?:

"Dr. Harvey Risch, an epidemiology professor at Yale School of Public Health, said on Tuesday that he thinks hydroxychloroquine could save 75,000 to 100,000 lives if the drug is widely used to treat coronavirus."

https://www.foxnews.com/media/hydroxychloroquine-could-save-lives-ingraham-yale-professor

I don't know enough to have an opinion, but there are many credible doctors and institutions saying the same thing. And of course, the effectiveness of the treatment is independent of the voices saying yea or nay. It's a pity that such a question has become political.

The study:

https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

Human, you are a very intelligent man. Half the time I find myself applauding what you write while the rest of the time I scratch my head in bewilderment.

This is one of the latter times. Summer and I were discussing Dr. Stella Immanuel. We mentioned neither Dr. Risch nor Fox News yet here you are asking me to answer questions about both as if they are relevant.

They are not.

LW: "[Trump] retweeted a bunch of her stuff about how there is already a cure available for the pandemic and trumpeting the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine as a COVID-19 treatment."

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You seem to be poo-pooing the hydroxychloroquine treatment because Trump/Immanuel support it. And I've seen you poo-poo the treatment before based on Trump's support of it. I've seen countless Dems on Twitter poo-poo the treatment because of the sources that support it. It's well-nigh a meme. You seem to be saying the same thing, that it is safe to dismiss the hydroxychloroquine treatment because Trump/Immanuel/etc support it.

I'm saying that that is not good enough grounds to dismiss the treatment, and I'm saying that there are many others more credible supporting the treatment.

I think people were very hopeful about it at first, but the scientific evidence just isn't there as yet. The WHO and NIH are not going to stop studies due to over-enthusiasm. They stop studies when there is verifiable harm vs. potential benefit.

I disagree with the word "yet," which implies that adequate research has not "yet" been conducted and that the president may "yet" be vindicated. There is a plethora of credible studies that find the drug useless against COVID-19 and in fact dangerous to many users.

Could Trump still be vindicated? That's always possible. But medicine, like science, is a game of probabilities and the likelihood that Trump is correct is at this point almost negligible. In fact, any serious political leader would be careful not to contradict epidemiologists when they have reached the current level of consensus.

That the president is now relying on charlatans who believe in anti-religion vaccines and think God wants them to grow rich through MLM schemes--essentially tying his dingy fast to a sinking ship--raises unsettling questions about his judgement.

Boys and girls, repeat after me: person, woman, man, camera, TV.

Forgive me please, Lot's Wife. I read this line from your post:

"...essentially tying his dingy fast to a sinking ship..."

And my first thought was "his dingy what?" (not meant to be PG-13 or above but I know it inclines slightly that way).

As for those 5 words - they are seared into my memory through repetition. I seriously hope it stops repeating but I won't count on it, due to my slight inclination towards OCD. But on the bright side, if I ever have to take the test, I already know the answers. I should achieve an amazing score!

Okay, Nightie, mind out of the gutter.

This is a dingy:

https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/old-wooden-dingy-floats-bay-260nw-1200377668.jpg

I don't know WHAT you were thinking of!

You have it precisely backwards.

I do not reject Immanuel because Trump supports her. She has discredited herself with the claims and record to which summer and I alluded and the contradiction with the scientific consensus that is patently clear.

The curious point is why someone would discredit himself by citing such a compromised source in support of his opinions. In short, Trump doesn't discredit Immanuel: she discredits him. And for some curious reason, he's okay with that.

What "countless Dems" say and who appears on Fox or any other network doesn't interest me. They are irrelevant to the topic of Stella Immanuel.

Human: "...there are many others more credible supporting the treatment."

There needs to be an informed approach at confirming the credibility of a source.

If I'm not mistaken, in the news conference today DJT added "early in treatment" to his recommendation of the Rx. It's mentioned above that HCZ has been effective in sicker patients, if I understood that comment correctly. I haven't heard that.

But the bigger question is why DJT's "recommendation" holds any water when he is a lay person, not a medical or science expert. For me, it's not a question of disregarding his claims because it's coming from him but rather because he's not an expert in the field.

I don't expect any president to know everything. I would hope they would know that a tried-and-true approach that is most effective includes consulting experts in any field in which they must make momentous decisions. The president may be the head of the parade but that doesn't mean they must be able to play every instrument or should know every dance move. It's just to be hoped that they will assemble an effective show. For which they could likely reap at least some of the credit from the majority of the happy viewers.

If you do a quick web search, what you see is that there is insufficient evidence that the drug is effective for Covid patients. Most studies apparently say it is not effective, a few do -- primarily for the sickest patients. There is a reason that the USDA removed its emergency use authorization for the drug, and the WHO and NIH stopped trials of the drug for use in treating Covid. It's not some conspiracy. Health authorities are desperate for effective treatments for Covid, but they don't want to do any harm.

In the case of Dr. Immanuel, I don't think you can cherry-pick her ideas. Some people I know are citing her approval of hydroxychloroquine while ignoring her views on alien DNA, vaccines to prevent religion, etc. Plus, she's a pediatrician, not a critical care physician, emergency care physician, or epidemiologist. Personally, I would not take medical advice from someone who by her own words, is a demonstrated nutter.

It would seem to me that you cherry-picked Immanuel to throw shade on the hydroxychloroqine treatment. Forgive me if I'm misreading you.

I wouldn't take her word for it, for sure; but I might consider Dr. Risch's word, and other's similar.

Sorry Summer, I transposed your post with LW's. You didn't mention the treatment.

And yes, WOW, not the person to take any kind of advice from.

I am throwing shade at Immanuel and wouldn't listen to a word she said even if it was about the time of day. I think I have clearly stated my views on hydroxychloroquine.

> It would seem to me that you cherry-picked
> Immanuel to throw shade on the hydroxychloroqine
> treatment.

Trump chose Immanuel. That is why I addressed her. In fact, I am confident I would never have heard of her if he hadn't done so.

"Immanuel, a pediatrician and a religious minister, has a history of making bizarre claims about medical topics and other issues. She has often claimed that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches.

She alleges alien DNA is currently used in medical treatments, and that scientists are cooking up a vaccine to prevent people from being religious. And, despite appearing in Washington, D.C. to lobby Congress on Monday, she has said that the government is run in part not by humans but by “reptilians” and other aliens."

DtA: "She has often claimed that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches."

Yowch.

On every level.

I'm sure glad she's not a gynecologist. Oh my aching uterus.

"In her 2015 sermon on the Illuminati’s supposed agenda to bring down the United States, Immanuel argues that a wide variety of toys, books, and TV shows, from Pokémon—which she declares “Eastern demons”—to Harry Potter and the Disney Channel shows Wizards of Waverly Place and That’s So Raven were all part of a scheme to introduce children to spirits and witches. ...
In the sermon, Immanuel preserved special vitriol for the Magic 8-Ball, a toy that can be shaken up to “reveal” any answer. Immanuel claims the otherwise innocuous Magic 8-Ball was in fact a scheme to get children used to witchcraft.
“The 8-Ball was a psychic,” she said"


https://preview.redd.it/magyq888und51.jpg?auto=webp&s=a87e58686af5da9682d1fa8d23e4ff81ff321379



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2020 09:32PM by Dave the Atheist.

Human: "...there are many credible doctors and institutions saying the same thing."

This is the crunch. How is a lay person to examine and diagnose the credibility of a scientist or medical person?

They could be the best surgeon in their field yet believe little green men inhabit their back garden. Likewise, a renowned physicist who comprehends concepts many of us cannot even pronounce can hold onto conspiracy theories a 10-year-old could disprove.

In particular, with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, the combination of these medications can intensify the risk to patients of even more severe heart side effects (dysrhythmias) than HCQ can produce on its own. Generally, patients who need these drugs for severe lupus and rheumatoid disease take a chance that the side effects will be less of a problem than the condition they are suffering from. It's a trade-off, iow, either living with debilitating and painful diseases or finding relief through the appropriate medications while being mindful they come with risks of serious side effects. The risk is acceptable to many patients like this and their physicians while the risk to otherwise healthy people who consume the drugs is likely not worth taking the chance of bringing on serious side effects that can cause life-threatening side effects. (You don't want to fool around with heart arhythmia if you can help it).

I go with the studies more than this or that physician. Many studies in various countries have concluded the risks in this case outweigh the possible benefits and indeed, there has been no benefit against the coronavirus seen in the cited studies to date. I wouldn't go with a mere opinion but rather with a scientifically-controlled peer-reviewed study of a large number of volunteers/patients.

That approach makes sense to me and can easily avoid making the issue political in that you aren't looking at who is giving an opinion but rather what the scientifically conducted studies are revealing.

I don't care if you are not vaccinated as long as you don't leave your home.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2020 07:22PM by Dave the Atheist.

Do we really want COVID19 to end? It seems to be the only chance we have of getting a decent healthcare system. The DNC just shot down Medicare for All in the middle of a pandemic. Their pain threshold is way too high. We really need more people not wearing masks.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do we really want COVID19 to end? It seems to be
> the only chance we have of getting a decent
> healthcare system. The DNC just shot down Medicare
> for All in the middle of a pandemic. Their pain
> threshold is way too high. We really need more
> people not wearing masks.

My impression is that they are not against the concept but rather the formula for getting there.

Hopefully, both aims can be achieved - seeing the end of the pandemic (partially and effectively through adoption of simple measures we can take ourselves - masks, distancing, hygiene) as well as finding common ground on universal medical care. (Which we have in Canada and while it can always be improved we aren't complaining about the basic concept and how it works, for sure). Free free free at point of care. Where's the beef? (I spent 10 days in hospital with severe flu one recent Christmas/New Yr's - not fun. With IVs, medicines, drs, nurses and all the basics how can I complain at receiving no bill - at all - for all that time, care, expertise and the odd bowl of Jell-o?).