Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 11:29AM

The recent thread about the Utah Housing Corporation made me think about how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints views debt, especially how borrowing vs. lending is perceived.

Throughout my TBM days, I remember constantly being reminded of the evils of debt. From the Churches own website: “Since the early days of the Church, the Lord’s prophets have repeatedly warned against the bondage of debt. One of the great dangers of debt is the interest that accompanies it. When it is necessary to incur debt, such as a reasonable amount to purchase a modest home or to complete one’s education, the debt should be repaid as quickly as possible.”

So, if a member wants to follow the inspired words of the Lord’s anointed, they should avoid debt whenever possible. My question is, do they see anything wrong with luring others into the “bondage” and “dangers” of debt? As I understand it, Utah has extremely lax laws when it comes to payday loans, and they allow extremely high interest rates. My TBM brother once owned a payday loan business in Utah.

I understand that payday loans are legal. Liquor stores are also legal. In most places, stores that sell adult videos and sex toys are legal. In many places marijuana stores are legal. I can’t imagine a bishop or stake president owning any of these businesses other than a payday loan place. If a Mormon sold liquor or marijuana, members would probably be suspicious of them, and it’s very unlikely they would be called into leadership positions. If they provide loans that are all but guaranteed to keep people in debt (and away from TSCC’s teachings) there is no stigma in that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 01:13PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2020 11:19PM by messygoop.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 01:51PM

Neither a borrower nor a lender be.....unless its with a bank.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 02:27PM

That’s the motto of my bank.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 02:51PM

A bank is an institution that only loans you money when you don't need it. - Mark Twain

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 02:38PM

Back in the late 1950s, Las Vegas was a podunk little town with two streets of gambling, Fremont St. and the Strip, with just a few hotels from the Sahara to the Flamingo. The population was probably in the 30,000s, with maybe 6,000 mormons.

A new fangled supermarket opened, called Vegas Village. The owners were mormon, which made the rest of us proud, because the store did not carry alcohol or tobacco products. Yay, word of wisdom!

Much pride was felt, and much mention was made of their righteousness!

And then they started carrying beer and ciggies...

And mormons couldn't brag anymore...

And, yeah, they started staying open on Sundays, too.

... Nothing to see here, let's just move along...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 02:45PM

Actually, owning a liquor store is not forbidden. Neither is owning a casino, for that matter.

People who worked in gambling in places like Nevada were not allowed to get Temple recommends. When the hypocrisy of giving owners TRs, but not the employees, was pointed out, the policy was changed. I believe that change took place in the early to mid 1970s.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2020 02:46PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 02:52PM

Joseph owned a bar.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Finance Clerk ( )
Date: September 18, 2020 02:26PM

Back in the 70's, 80's there was a rather large club in Athens, GA that was very popular with the UGA students (#1 party school). It was owned by a "not so prominent" LDS family. Great people. But they were never offered leadership positions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 02:54PM

Decades ago I went to buy some Garments and was short cash. I asked if they took credit cards and they nearly took my head off.

Yesterday I bought a $2.00 book at DI and was asked to used a card. I said not for two bucks. What happened to avoiding debt?

They just stared at me and took the cash.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 03:36PM

Does anyone know if TSCC accepts credit cards for tithing? They certainly didn't back when I was in leadership positions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 03:24PM

If people believed "neither a borrower no lender be," modern capitalism would collapse, and the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints along with it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 03:27PM

But it was Polonius in Hamlet who said that, not a Mormon authority, so capitalism is safe for now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 03:34PM

I love how TSCC's official instructions say "When it is necessary to incur debt, such as a reasonable amount to purchase a modest home." I wonder how many mormons have ever said "I hate to take out a mortgage, but I suppose I'll borrow a reasonable about to get a modest home."

The ward I live in has many McMansions. Back when I was active and knew many of the ward members, I wondered how so many families (many with stay at home moms) could afford homes that cost so much more than mine (in some cases several times the price of my house). A year or two before the 2008 financial crash, I was chatting with my bishop. He told me that it really worried him that so many of the ward members were living so close to the edge financially.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ufotofu ( )
Date: September 18, 2020 02:30AM

CrispingPin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He told me that it really worried him that so many of the ward members were living so close to the edge financially.

And Morally!
And socially!
And Spiritually!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: September 16, 2020 10:05PM

Once again, there needs to be critical thinking. Investment debt is usually good if you know what you're doing. Consumer debt is bad. A mortgage is usually the average person's best investment they can make. The bank won't usually allow you to invest in real-estate too foolishly if you have little to no down payment. So you just hanging on to what you buy and it always goes up in value over the long term. An expensive car is usually the worst investment a person can make.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 18, 2020 08:34AM

>>A mortgage is usually the average person's best investment they can make.

It was the best investment I ever made. Paying off my home in 3.5 years is one of the cornerstones of my retirement plan. It will help stretch my retirement income so much further.

When I was in the market for a home, I remember asking at my (then) credit union for a mortgage loan. I figured it would be the best rate, and it was, but they only wanted to approve me for a very modest loan that would have restricted my choices severely. So I went to the mortgage broker that my brother recommended. She looked at my income, asked me what I thought I could afford, and rubber-stamped it. A few years after that, I refinanced down to an inexpensive 15 year loan. It has really worked out for me.

In Utah, during the bubble, I saw too many people buying McMansions who looked like they were stretching to buy. I know of at least one man who lost his house, and there were probably more.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 18, 2020 02:32AM

If your name is Marriott you can sell pornography and the church won't say peep.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: September 18, 2020 09:17AM

There's not many rules that can't be overlooked within mormondom, if one is willing to tithe. As long as cojcolds gets their cut their satisfied.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: sunbeep ( )
Date: September 18, 2020 01:54PM

Many years ago I attended tithing settlement and didn't have the required funds to bring my status up to "FULL". The bishop suggested that I write him a post dated check and he promised he would keep it in his desk drawer until mid January. I wouldn't do that. Instead I wore the label of shame and promised to do better next year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: September 20, 2020 10:20AM

Did he take away your temple recommend? I have heard of a few cases where the person's temple recommend was used much like collateral on a loan until the person's tithing is caught up. If they ever would have done that to me (before I resigned), I think I would have told him to keep it because I don't agree with the whole throat slashing thing anyway and so the recommend is worthless to me anyway.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: September 21, 2020 01:51PM

Always found those teachings bizarre as applied to business. I was always in debt with a line of credit or operating loans when I farmed

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
  ******    ********  ********  **        ******** 
 **    **   **        **        **        **    ** 
 **         **        **        **            **   
 **   ****  ******    ******    **           **    
 **    **   **        **        **          **     
 **    **   **        **        **          **     
  ******    ********  **        ********    **