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Posted by: frankblue ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 12:19AM

I need advice how to tell a mormon (close to me) about the errors of mormonism. I know alot about the religion since I have been member for over 2 decades, before I finally gave up the faith.

This other person seems to have spiritual blindfold around the mind and seems impossible to talk about any "negative" issue about church and it´s history.

I really need some advice in this.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2020 12:28AM by frankblue.

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Posted by: frankblue ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 12:20AM

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 01:01AM

The church has become part of their identity, so they will see any attack on the church as a personal attack on them. You can’t be direct. You can ask questions that hilight paradoxes.

If they need the church to be true, they will do whatever it takes to believe it. They will make any excuse to defend the church. You could point out all of the good that the church did in the past, before the mall, the hedge fund, the drying up of ward funds, and the wearing of coats at church because they’re pinching every penny. Something happened on the way to the future. Maybe God decided the church wasn’t important anymore. It sure seems that way.

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Posted by: A New Name ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 01:23AM

If somebody arrived at their beliefs without facts, no amount to logic can change their minds.

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Posted by: ufotofu ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 01:29AM

You can't.

There aren't any.

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Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 11:06AM

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

You can lead a Saint to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: October 17, 2020 09:00PM

The only person who can un-convert a Mormon is that Mormon him/herself. At least that's how it was with me. Other people telling me facts about Mormonism didn't phase me at all. But when I stumbled upon inconsistencies and untruths on my own it took hold and made me search. I think most ex-mormons have their own personal story of what made them start questioning or leave without even searching. Some may be similar but none are exactly the same.

I read on this blog what I think is about the only way you can begin a topic like this with a TBM. Ask them, "If your church was not true, that is to say, if it's foundation was false, would you want to know?". They might say "yes" but I believe many just don't want to know. If they say "No" there is no point going forward. If they say "Yes" you still have to discover if they mean it.

I know so many well read, informed Mormons who just refuse to see the light. And I know they know more than they let on. I think the realization that they may have devoted their lives, time, talents, money, etc and the lives of their children to a worthless philosophy is too much for them to contemplate. They are getting something they value out of it or they would not stay.

I think some like the perceived power of the priesthood. Some enjoy the delusion, reinforced by others, that they have a knowledge of eternity and afterlife that the rest of the world does not have. Some just like the comfort of thinking they have the answers to life's unanswerable questions. I think that is the crux of all religion. Others just like having a social network of non-smoking, non-drinking, non-thinking friends that they are familiar with. It's all different. Some just don't want their boat rocked.

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Posted by: loislane ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 11:20AM

When I was young, I went to a lot of trouble to find the truth about Mormonism. I checked bibliographies of books, and read from pirmary sources. I visited the Utah Lighthouse Ministry. I read so-called anti-Mormon books, and checked THEIR bibliogarphies. I read everything, starting with NMKMY\H. The lady who ran the ILL department of the public library knew me well. I was always over there.

Those days are over. Anyone who wants to explore the truth about Mormonism can do so at the click of a mouse. They will inadvertently come across such info while doing research for next week's SS lesson. What I had to ferret out so carefully is all over the internet.

Your friend does not WANT to become an ex-Mormon. That is why I NEVER try to make a practicing Mormon see the light. The truth is out there, all over the internet, including the LDS church's own website.

Stop trying to convert or de-convert your friend. Find mutual interests to base your friendship on, or drop her is a friend.

She doesn't want you to enlighten her.

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 02:44PM

When I was TBM no one could convince me it wasn't true. Many people tried. When you are raised to think that just about every happy feeling is the spirit testifying that "the church" is true, logic doesn't matter.

Sometimes I try to share my experiences that lead me out of Mormonism when Mormons ask me why I left, but I can see my former TBM self in them, putting on their protective helmet so that nothing "anti" will penetrate their brain.

I think the best strategy is to fight fire with fire. Share your feelings. When I'm asked why I stopped attending church I tell them I was tired of feeling bad about myself, that no matter how how hard I tried I was always left feeling that I wasn't good enough, and that most TBM women I knew were on anti-depressants because they felt the same. I share the story about my TBM friend who committed suicide because he had been shamed by church leaders. I talk about not receiving an answer when I prayed and asked if the BoM was true.

I also like to ask stumper questions like why it took LDS Inc. until 1978 to allow black people the priesthood and question why the church was not leading the way if they had a prophet? Martin Luther King had a dream but the Mormon "prophet" did not.

The best strategy is to let Mormons ask you questions. If you just start preaching they'll instantly turn off.

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Posted by: ufotofu ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 03:52PM

heartbroken Wrote:
> The best strategy is to let Mormons ask you questions. If you just start preaching they'll instantly turn off.

But, Mormons DON'T (usually) ASK QUESTIONS. If they did, they would receive answers. Answers their captives don't want them to know. Truth-

Asking questions is BAD, Okay? (Southpark)

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 04:53PM

Mormons, especially missionaries, like to ask me why I stopped going to church. That's when I let them have it.

They also like to bring up church related stuff and I like to "share" my opinion. Mormons like to talk about their prophet, etc., and it's only fair that I can offer my opinion, usually in the form of a question so it doesn't seem like I'm on the attack.

I do know that if you just start telling Mormons "the truths about mormonism" they'll instantly turn off or go on the defensive.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 03:43PM

How about a game of "I remember when"?

Talk about all the changes and maybe they'll see that mormon doctrine is jello nailed to the wall.

Simple things.

Road shows, scouting, ward dinners, pre block meetings, etc.

Then fold in temple changes, Lamanites no longer primary ancestors of native Americans, priesthood ban, priests now performing baptisms for dead. High Priest now in elders qhorum. 70s are now general authorities etc.

Might possibly open some lines of communication.

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Posted by: JoeSmith666 ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 03:52PM

When you have faith...

Facts don't matter.

Better not to bring things up unless asked.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: October 04, 2020 06:43PM

Sometimes less can be more. If your friend asks you why you left, you can say that there were a number of issues. Then share one, with the proviso that you were personally bothered by this issue among others. Then you put the emphasis on your own reaction to the issue, as opposed to the truth of the issue, i.e., "I can't personally support a church where [such and such] is the case. I understand that some people are not bothered by that."

My Episcopalian father put a sharp crack in my Catholic faith with just one sentence, murmured to me quietly after something the priest said in Mass. It was basically the equivalent of, "Nope." It took me another 4-5 years to stop considering myself Catholic, but that one sentence got the ball rolling. It made me realize that it was okay to disagree with religious authority, and to do my own thinking about any particular issue.

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Posted by: frankblue ( )
Date: October 05, 2020 09:25AM

Thanks everyone for your answers. I appreciated your wisdom on this topic.

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Posted by: ufotofu ( )
Date: October 05, 2020 11:44AM

Keep taking
Keep asking questions

Keep living
They'll follow you

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Posted by: thegoodman ( )
Date: October 05, 2020 10:50AM

Ask her questions of history and mechanics. Then read church articles with her.

For instance, ask her what she knows of the translation process for the BoM. Ask her what image she has in her head and what she has always been taught in sunday school. Then read the Gospel Topics essays on the book if mormon translation and seer stones.

Ask her about what she knows about the church's relationship with black people. Ask her about what she knows about the original sin and the premortal existence. Then read her the gospel topics essay about the priesthood ban.

Ask her what she knows about the church's history with polygamy. ask her if Joseph had other wives and what she was taught about that. Read with her D&C 132. Read the gospel topics essay on polygamy with her. Read the FAIR Mormon articles on each of Joseph's recorded 34 wives(people say there are more but honestly, just reading apologetics on those 34 will be enough).

Ask her about the Restoration and the Great Apostasy. Ask her why the BoM is a fulness and what gaps does it fill? Try looking up temple ordinances, premortal existence, and three glories of heaven in the BoM(clue: you can't. None of that stuff is in there). Read the church articles about John the Beloved and the Three Nephites.

It's not just that stuff doesn't make sense or doesn't add up. The church leaders have LIED to her. Show her that. Let the church hang itself.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 05, 2020 11:14AM

Listen to them-- really listen. Then repeat back what they have said. They need to see their own words framed in a new way.

Only they can convince themselves.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: October 17, 2020 11:19PM

Ethos, Logos and Pathos - Aristotle's Rhetorical Situation
Ethics (credibility or trustworthiness), Logic (Content of the speech) and Emotional appeal, Aristotle's 3 rhetorical appeals still apply and work.

So does the Socratic Method.

On the other hand, is your friend better off Mormon?
And are you prepared to be the one who's shoulder he cries on if it turns out his emotional social needs are better met as a Mormon?

It's a big responsibility to carry if you burst somebody's bubble and they don't do the research on their own to find out. I mean, how hard is it to Google?
I kind of don't have a hell of a lot of sympathy for Mormons these days who claim ignorance, 20 years into the Google Age.

I just ask them questions that really make them think and don't let them off the hook with the Pablum bullshit they read on or FAIR Mormon. It's rediculous.

These are the kinds of questions I had to answer on my own, through research that made me seriously question the integrity (Ethos) Ethics and Morals of the leaders of the church.

#1. "IF what they've got is what they claim it to be, the truth, straight from God. Then why don't then let us have a look inside that secret vault of theirs and see what's in it and if it is what they say it is, then we'll shout it from the rooftops!" Jon Krakauer, Under the Banner of Heaven

#2. Why did Mormons restrict blacks from entering the temple? It's not like you needed the priesthood to enter the temple, since women have entered the temple all along without the priesthood?

#3. Why is it that Joseph Smith didn't write down the 1st Vision until 18 years after he claimed it happened? And why isn't that the one that is the official version, instead of the one that is the official version, which is actually the 4th version of the First Vision and nothing like the first version, which was the only version that was written in his own hand?

#4. How do you explain the fact that Joseph Smith 'married' his followers wives when that's condemned as adultery, not only in the 10 Commandments, but in the Revelation Joseph Claimed he got straight from God, D&C 132:61, the Law of the Priesthood?

#5. How do you reconcile the fact that the no Semetic DNA has been detected in Native Americans from Alaska to the Southern Tip of South America, why is that when Mormons have been calling all Native Americans, North and South, "Lamanites" for over 100 years? Isn't that wrong to call them something they're clearly NOT?

the list goes on.
But make them think for themselves.
They'll try to give you bullshit answers to your question, but don't let them get a way with cliches or whatabout isms. Just keep asking the questions they can't answer honestly, then it's clear to everybody in the conversation, that their ethics, logic and emotional appeal is all snonsensical and detached from reality. AKA, delusional.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: October 18, 2020 10:53AM

Talk to a Mormon, about truth? Hahhaahhhaaahahaha-ughmm

They're supposed to get that from church. Ironically, TRUTH is only found OUTSIDE tscc; here, for example.

When a Mormon sees their "truth" has been false all along, they might begin to seek more truth, and happiness, and peace, and fulfillment.

But until then, misery and confusion and duality exists.

If not 100%, 80-90% of once-mormons (or 'ormons') sought truth, in themselves, in mormonism (which is impossible [to find]), and/ or in life. That caused 60% of them to find freedom (leaving the other 40% in a state of suspended doubt, denial, or duality), and forever happiness and bliss.

When you learn/ realise mormonism is an emotional 'religion', and that God/ LIFE wants you to be happy, honest, fluid, mormonism - a stumbling block - has NO PLACE in your life.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks. LDS is an OLD DOG (no offense elderolddog, or dogs in general), up to its old tricks.

If someone is sincere in their desire to learn the truth about harmonism, I call them to come to me (let them be hilled): we'll go on a hike, discover new things, and experience everlasting peace. That's the truth.

I'm going ahead. They can stay anass all they want. I won't wait up either. I need a breather.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: October 18, 2020 08:31PM


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Posted by: godlesslamb ( )
Date: October 21, 2020 02:27AM

You can't honestly. They'll just get uncomfortable and "Na, Na, Na, NaNaNa I can't hear you" from the cognitive dissonance.

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