https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPHUu9sAGKo

Sam Harris speaks with John McWhorter about race, racism, and “anti-racism” in America.

John McWhorter is a professor of linguistics, philosophy, and music history at Columbia University, and writes for various publications on language issues and race issues such as Time, the Wall Street Journal, the Daily Beast, CNN, and The Atlantic.

They discuss:
how conceptions of racism have changed
the ubiquitous threat of being branded a “racist”
the contradictions within identity politics
recent echoes of the OJ verdict
willingness among progressives to lose the 2020 election
racism as the all-purpose explanation of racial disparities in the U.S.
double standards for the black community
the war on drugs
the lure of identity politics
police violence
the enduring riddle of affirmative action
the politics of “black face”

It's over an hour long.
If you want the Readers Digest condensed version of McWhoter's thesis, here's the 3 1/2 minute long version on CNN,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGJbrLs_8_0

He also just finished a book on the subject.

https://twitter.com/JohnHMcWhorter?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

So, what's your take on it?

macaRomney.

Did you see what just happened to Jordan? We was expunged. Why? Because like yesterday when he was Endless Nameless, he was here after having been banned.

If you want to know why he is persona non-grata, do a search for Concrete Zipper's comments to Jordan. It's all there.

Please , not another one. Is there no where else you can push this stuff? or is there just no one else that wants to discuss it.

Honestly, it's like a manic depressive thing with your posts. I know, I don't have to read them. But you seem to be continually bringing to the table what no one here really wants to eat.

Don't want to be called one then stop quacking like one. Simple as that.

iknowthischurchisfalse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't want to be called one then stop quacking
> like one. Simple as that.

Calling people racist is a blunt weapon which didn't stop the fascists from siezing control.
Woke, post-modern, critical race theory is the kind of racist identity politics that empowers fascists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2020 12:43AM by schrodingerscat.

iknowthischurchisfalse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't want to be called one then stop quacking
> like one. Simple as that.

There you go, saying something that makes sense in a reply to SC.

Good on you Macaromney. It feels like only one flavor of politics is allowed round here. Don't let the usual suspects chase you off.

If you look at the other ex-Mormon sites and they are all to the left of you politically, perhaps it is you and not the liberals who define an extreme.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you look at the other ex-Mormon sites and they
> are all to the left of you politically, perhaps it
> is you and not the liberals who define an extreme.

I've looked at the ex-Mormon sites and nearly of them are to the right of this board politically. This board is so far left, it isn't even liberal a lot of the time.

>> This board is so far left, it isn't even liberal a lot of the time.

You say that like its a bad thing.

Really? Which ones?

This should be easy for you.



ETA: I'm eager to see what you come up with, BoMM. Just tell us which of the other ex-Mo boards are to the right of this one. I am so looking forward to responding to your claim. . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2020 03:00PM by Lot's Wife.

Still waiting. . .

Yet more projecting.

Are you woke ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you woke ?

No, not a member of the woke CULT. I'm with McWhorter, Hughes, Loury, Sam Harris and Bill Maher. We did away with Affirmative Action for a good reason. It just made people think if a black person got a high profile job, it wasn't due to the content of their character or merit, but the color of their skin.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dave the Atheist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Are you woke ?
>
> No, not a member of the woke CULT. I'm with
> McWhorter, Hughes, Loury, Sam Harris and Bill
> Maher. We did away with Affirmative Action for a
> good reason. It just made people think if a black
> person got a high profile job, it wasn't due to
> the content of their character or merit, but the
> color of their skin.


O_o tell that to the legacies.

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dave the Atheist Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Are you woke ?
> >
> > No, not a member of the woke CULT. I'm with
> > McWhorter, Hughes, Loury, Sam Harris and Bill
> > Maher. We did away with Affirmative Action for
> a
> > good reason. It just made people think if a
> black
> > person got a high profile job, it wasn't due to
> > the content of their character or merit, but
> the
> > color of their skin.
>
>
> O_o tell that to the legacies.

MLK?
He had a dream, remember?
Did affirmative action get us any closer to realizing that dream of judging people based upon the content of their character rather than the color of their skin?

Dude. Do you know what a "legacy" is?

ETA: My father went to an HBCU. Some Blue Chip firms interviewed on his campus.

Affirmative action opened the door. He got the job. And kept it. My brothers and I are beneficiaries of affirmative action. We didn't grow up in poverty. We went to decent schools and lived in nice neighborhoods.

I'm thankful.

We think of affirmative action in terms of race. It's also been used w/r/t admitting women to college - but affirmative action doesn't take anyone's tests or write their papers, does it?

Affirmative action also applies to first-generation college applicants. It's not just a race thing, but that's the only way we talk about it.

Colleges take people's socio-economic status into account. They also look a little more closely at an applicant who plays the piccolo if they need one for the band.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2020 12:24AM by Beth.

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dude. Do you know what a "legacy" is?

Yeah, MLK.
Dude, do you even know who he was?

You're a twit. A "legacy" is the child of an alum who gets special consideration, especially if their parent/s are active in the school.

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're a twit. A "legacy" is the child of an alum
> who gets special consideration, especially if
> their parent/s are active in the school.
You're an idiot if you believe skin color is more important than character or merit. People like you are why we are no closer to realizing King's dream now than we were 50yrs ago.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Beth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> You're an idiot if you believe skin color is more
> important than character or merit. People like you
> are why we are no closer to realizing King's dream
> now than we were 50yrs ago.


1. Show me where I wrote that.

2. I don't have that kind of power.

3. People like you are why Americans are one of the dumbest populations on Earth.

As for #3, obfuscation is one of the best ways to work at thinking you're looking good wearing unflattering clothes.

George W. Bush was a legacy — rich dad, alumnus.

Unless you honestly believe that he was admitted into Yale based on his merits.

True. And his granddaddy, Prescott Bush, went to Yale as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2020 12:53AM by Beth.

And there's more! Prescott Bush's paternal grandfather, Rev. James Smith Bush (class of 1844), and his maternal uncle Robert E. Sheldon Jr. (class of 1904) went to Yale. That's one Yale-going family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush

We're a lot closer than we were my man. And things are going in the right direction.

I'm a bit surprised at your take on this subject Schroding. I'd love to have the conversation but I don't have it in me to engage on this issue in short little posts.

Anyways, I've enjoyed your perspective on many things but you caught me off guard on this----

schrodingerscat Wrote:

>>It just made people think if a black person got a high profile job, it wasn't due to the content of their character or merit, but the color of their skin.

Scat, you must be really young. There was a time when if you were black, female, etc. you were not getting hired for certain jobs no matter how well qualified you were. Affirmative Action opened doors that had previously been firmly closed to certain job candidates.

No. I'm not young. And I do remember when I was applying to be a firefighter and got to #7 on the list of new hires, out of hundreds of applicants, 10 of whom got hired.
I wasn't one of them, due to Affirmative Action.
My Uncle who was a Lieutenant in the same Fire Department told me, "It used to be if you had a relative in the department you were in. But now, you've got 3 strikes against you going in,

#1. You're white.
#2. You're male and
#3. You're not a veteran"

The black woman firefighter who was charged with demonstrating how to do the physical, couldn't even pick up the barbell we were required to curl 15 times.
I just thought to myself, if I ever get to be a firefighter I hope she doesn't have to drag my ass out of a burning building!
And that's the reason Affirmative Action was banned in my state and 9 others, soon after that.

"Cada quien habla de la feria según le fue en ella."

Old saying in Mexico that is basically the Spanish version of our, "blind men describe the elephant based on the part they are touching."

And of course the tendency is to believe that what you 'know/think/experience' is the bit of knowledge that counts the most.



SCat, it boggles the mind to try to imagine what we all would have missed if you'd been born a poor Black woman!

> "It used to be if you had a
> relative in the department you were in.

Wait--I thought you were opposed to affirmative action yet here you are lamenting its demise. What gives?


-------------------
> But now,
> you've got 3 strikes against you going in,
>
> #1. You're white.
> #2. You're male and
> #3. You're not a veteran"


Oh, I see. What you regret is the demise of affirmative action that benefited you and people like you. How offensive it must be to see others given the preferential treatment that was your god-given right.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > "It used to be if you had a
> > relative in the department you were in.
>
> Wait--I thought you were opposed to affirmative
> action yet here you are lamenting its demise.
> What gives?
>
>
> -------------------
> > But now,
> > you've got 3 strikes against you going in,
> >
> > #1. You're white.
> > #2. You're male and
> > #3. You're not a veteran"
>
>
> Oh, I see. What you regret is the demise of
> affirmative action that benefited you and people
> like you. How offensive it must be to see others
> given the preferential treatment that was your
> god-given right.
Affirmative Action never benefitted me. And it created the impression that any black person who got hired only got hired because of the color of their skin, not due to the content of their character or merit or talent, which didn't result in more able bodied firefighters, that's for damn sure.

> Affirmative Action never benefitted me.

Nope. Scat is a white man who never benefited from racial or gender preferences.


------------------
> And it
> created the impression that any black person who
> got hired only got hired because of the color of
> their skin, not due to the content of their
> character or merit or talent, which didn't result
> in more able bodied firefighters, that's for damn
> sure.

Okay. Your concern about affirmative action stems from your profound empathy for African Americans.

Either that or you are self-consciously tacking on an after-the-fact justification in order to make your more actual motives seem less selfish.


-------------
I know, I know. You are with Kaku and Einstein.

Okay.

Can you please, please, please quit it with the "content of their character" nonsense? We get it. You have that part of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s speech memorized although you're using it out of context. (I'll append an excerpt of his speech to the end of this comment.)

My point is that character never got anyone a job.


First, I'm going to fix this for you:


"[Affirmative Action] created the impression [AMONG RACISTS] that any [B]lack person who got hired only got hired because of the color of their skin... ."

Only racists think, "Oh, that person there is here only because of Affirmative Action."

My kid, who is Black, was hired after a phone interview. There's nothing on her CV that indicates her race or ethnicity. She's wicked smart and very good at what she does. Her supervisor recently told her that they wish they had five more employees like her.

But a racist like you would think that she was hired because she's Black.


You've got a problem, son.



******************

In a sense we've come to our nation's Capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir.

This note was a promise that all men, yes, Black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check; a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds."

But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we have come to cash this check—a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice.

We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children.

***It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community ***must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. ***And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.

And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?"

We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of ***police brutality.

We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities.

We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one.

We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating "for whites only."

We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote.

No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of ***creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be ***judged*** by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

https://www.history.com/topics/civil-rights-movement/i-have-a-dream-speech

***emphasis mine



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 06:46PM by Beth.

He's older than you. At least chronologically.

I know.

Really excellent post, Beth.

Important, and very well-written.

Kudos!

I would like to very highly recommend a current best-selling book to anyone here who is interested in most anything American (especially our social and legal culture, as our evolving culture and history have been affected by racial beliefs and opinions):

CASTE: The Origins of Our Discontents, by Isabel Wilkerson (a Pulitzer Prize winning author), published by Random House this year.

To me, this book is one of the books which have changed my life forever (even my views of the entertainment industry, which I have been "inside" of, and a part of, since I was three years old). [Entertainment industry topics begin on page 136.]

AT LAST I have some actual idea of why my maternal-side family were (the important ones have all now died) the bone-marrow deep racists they always, every moment of their lives, were.

I have been reading this book, section by section, as I wait to pick-up Paul each night from the mall where he works, and last night I "stumbled" into the entertainment "industry" (beginning with the very early beginnings of slavery in this country) section, and I was sitting at an outside table at the mall gape-mouthed. I literally, before reading this section in the book, had NO IDEA!!

Yeah, I already DID know about all the black actors and singers and musicians, like Sammy Davis, Jr., who were not allowed to stay at the same hotels where they were appearing as headliners because they were black, and etc. I knew about Shirley Temple and how she, to her great distress, was not allowed to invite Bill Robinson (her adult dancing partner in films) to her home birthday party because he was black.

I already did know a whole bunch of "stuff" about what it meant to be black and also literally world famous in "Hollywood" (the industry)....but, truly, I had no idea at all of how deeply that "stuff" was entrenched in our American culture and history and bone marrow, as well as in the industry itself. [Much of this also applies to the professional sports industry as well, regardless of the sport.]

Because of this book, unlike any other book or article(s) I have ever read before, I am understanding my maternal-side family a WHOLE lot more than I ever have been able to prior. Since they're now all dead, it's late--but for me, it feels much better late than never. For me personally, many lifelong and intensely deep questions are being answered, and I am finally beginning to understand (at least a bit).

Beth: You did some of these same things today, with this post.

Very well done! :)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 10:45PM by Tevai.

<3

I've seen the buzz about that book. I'll definitely read it.

I've been meaning to read, "The Shape of the River" for years.

Thank you for your kindness, Tevai.

Jesus
Thought you went away.
TLDR
But calling me a racist is ironic.
I agree with MLK,
Prof. John Mcwherter, Glenn Lourey and Coleman Hughes, black intellectuals.
We are liberal leftist's who don't think affirmative action actually helped black people as a whole when black familie net worth is 10% white net worth because they get denied for loams 4 timed more than whites or Asoans or Jews.
How's that Affirmative Action working to achieve equality?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 07:55PM by schrodingerscat.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TLDR


You've diagnosed yourself!

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TLDR
>
>
> You've diagnosed yourself!
You lost me at racist.
I read enough of your stupid lies.
God wheres the block button?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 07:57PM by schrodingerscat.

What you skipped, you lazy reader, was an excerpt of the Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. speech THAT YOU HAVE BEEN QUOTING.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 08:01PM by Beth.

I agree 100% with Sam Harris and Coleman Hughes on race in America.
If getting into elite Ivy League colleges were based upon merit, they'd be filled with Asians and Jews, who get most of the Nobel Prizes, but only as populous as Mirmons, who have earned none. They wouldn't be mostly white Europeans. Because Asians would make up the majority, based solely upon test scores.
Why?
Culture.
Social norms.
Expectations.
Discipline.
Hard work ethic.
Credit scores.
Land.
Money.
Those with it collect rent from those w/o it.

Last week a liberal, this week an arch-conservative who thinks he's a liberal.

Let me know when you develop enough insight to know who exactly you are.

Wow! That's very impressive company you keep!

He's friends with Einstein and Hawking, too. They go out to lunch together--with masks, of course!

I try to fight the SJWs also, schrodingerscat. I try to sound the warning bell that this constant censorship of truth in the name of combating racism does nothing but take away free speech for all but the more you fight the more they think you’re guilty. Of what I’m not sure as being a racist isn’t really wrong unless you put your beliefs into action. Anyway, just let Lots Wife et al stay on their high horses of intelligentsia rhetoric and let it go. Ex-Mormon is no good anymore with all the SJWs constantly calling everyone out.

Disparity and Discrimination by Thomas Sowell is worth a read also. Only facts that show exactly how racial equality programs have done more harm than good for those they were meant to help.

You should not have mentioned that douchebag Thomas Sowell. Now we know who you really are.

"Bears attack Libertarians: "The libertarians descended into accusing one another of statism, leaving individuals & groups to do the best (or worst) they could... after one attack, a shadowy posse formed and shot more than a dozen bears in their dens."

You are a coward, macaRomney. Sometimes you and I engage in meaningful conversation but then you go anonymous to launch attacks. That's not a manly way to behave.

It's sad, really.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2020 11:51PM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are a coward, macaRomney. Sometimes you and I
> engage in meaningful conversation but then you go
> anonymous to launch attacks. That's not a manly
> way to behave.
That is the most sexist comment I've read on this forum.
>
> It's sad, really.
Yep.
AF



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 07:59PM by schrodingerscat.

What? I don't even merit a misquotation of Einstein or Kaku?

I'm heartbroken.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What? I don't even merit a misquotation of
> Einstein or Kaku?
> ?
> I'm heartbroken.

When have I ever misquoted Einstein or Kaku?
You misinterpreted what I said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 08:10PM by schrodingerscat.

Fool.

You say nature "tends" to produce life and then quote passages from Kaku (that's his last name) and Einstein that say nothing of the sort.

All posture and no substance, Kori. That's what you are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 08:13PM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fool.
>
> You say nature "tends" to produce life and then
> quote passages from Kaku (that's his last name)
> and Einstein that say nothing of the sort.
>
> All posture and no substance, Kori. That's what
> you are.

I'm a professional actually.
I have a real job I tend to daily thats a hell of a lot more important than responding to bored housewives mean girls club.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm a professional actually.
> I have a real job I tend to daily thats a hell of
> a lot more important than responding to bored
> housewives mean girls club.

You're a feminist, too?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 08:33PM by Beth.

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I'm a professional actually.
> > I have a real job I tend to daily thats a hell
> of
> > a lot more important than responding to bored
> > housewives mean girls club.
>
> You're a feminist, too?
Im a cat.
Im a felinist.
Not a mean girl.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 08:54PM by schrodingerscat.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not a mean girl.

Right. But you just insulted all women *and men* who work *for free* in the home.

ETA: I need to start quoting your entire comment before you change it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 08:56PM by Beth.