I was listening to a MormonStories podcast a few months ago, where John Dehlin made the following challenge.

"For those of you who thing the church should change, I challenge you to come up with any recommendation that would improve the church from your liberal/progressive view point that would lead to a maintenance or increase in church attendance or tithing."

I know that many of you would just like the church to come to an end, but that is not going to happen. I have lots of family that will never leave it. Therefore, I would love to see the church become something better. So, I thought about this for a bit and came up with a quite a list. I ended up making a video about these ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPkL_CjCJuc

If I could only choose one of my suggestions, it would be the first one: Stop thinking like a corporation and start acting like a charity (even John's question is a sympton of this mentality). I estimated that less than 0.5% of the cash donated by the membership goes towards humanitarian aid. That percentage jumps up to 1.7% when donated goods and services are included, but that is still pitifully small for a church that takes in over 6 billion per year in tithing, plus all of the profits from its investments and businesses.

During this process I became curious how my suggestions would compare with other peoples ideas. I am sure that there are many out there who would like to see the church change in some way. The church has changed in the past due to aggitation both from within and without. If nothing critical is ever said, nothing good will ever get done. So I would like to extend this to you. What changes would you make?

P.S. I did not put this in my video because I was not sure about it, but how many charitable entities, such as soup kitchens, homeless shelters, shelters for abused women and children, etc, does the church own and operate in the US? There might be some, I just don't know of any.

I would shorten SM to 45 minutes and get rid of either Sunday School or the auxillary meetings. I would get rid of the requirement for activities to have a "priesthood purpose". I would bring back road shows and youth dances. I'm no longer a youth, but those were fun activities. And finally, let's drop the charade of HTg and VTg. If you want to go visit someone, go ahead. Let's not make it another stupid "have to" piece of make-work.

and if they shortened the meetings, they could easily fit more wards into the buildings, reducing the need for so many buildings, thereby cutting building and maintenance costs.

Then they could afford to hire janitors and probably cut tithing costs or contribute more to charity.

So true - the work could progress! Hurray! Oh wait, I think it's BS.

The good news? The TSCC will never implement common sense ideas like making activities fun or cutting back on needless meetings.

I like the shorter meetings idea. Who likes having church at 1:00 in the afternoon. They should meet for an hour and then have lunch in the culterual hall. I mean, you have a kitchen right there, and nobody sets up tables and chairs like Mormons do. :)

I also think those are great suggestions. I'd get rid of Sunday School. I think they still have youth dances, don't they?

Also, young men shouldn't be prohibited from temple recommends or missionary service just on the basis of masturbation. That would strengthen the church as well (and I'd actually support, out of concern for the self-esteem of the young men).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2011 01:15PM by bubbleboy.

"I know that many of you would just like the church to come to an end, but that is not going to happen."

Much simpler solution. The world doesn't need another belief structure. We could reduce a lot of needless troubles with less of them.

It's quite telling that Dehlin puts a priority on maintaining/increasing income for the church (tithing).

As a member, we were constantly told that god - and gods church - does not 'need' tithing as much as we 'need to pay' tithing. obviously god needs $ more than they need to improve the church.

anyway:
If the church is supposed to be about 'Families', then they could give the family members some time to be together.

we all have enough to do, just to keep a roof over out heads.... thats beside 10% tithe and trying to keep the 'womenfolk' as SAHM's..... so why do they insist that people are sent out - away from their families - for whole evenings spent VT, HT, missionary splits, endless meetings, etc, etc.

Your tone of voice throughout the film is perfect.

I had never seen the clip about Hinckley claiming that members are told were tithing money goes! --Say WHAT? That's a LIE, LIE, LIE! --You handled this point extremely well, however.

I agree with all of your suggestions. Also agree with shortening sacrament meeting to 45 min. as Truthseeker suggests, as well as finding a way to greatly reduce the time of other meetings. Primary and YM/YW could occur at the same time as sac meeting, for example, as other churches do, at least for 3/4 meetings per month; with everyone in SM for the 4th meeting in order to give the teachers a needed break!

At the same time… since the church is a corporation and is a cult, I have no expectation that they would consider implementing any of your excellent suggestions. And even if they did, for most of us exmos, it would be “too little, too late.”

Nevertheless, more and more members will leave if they do not.

Get rid of them meetings where they talk/gossip about members with problems in the church. It is wrong on so many levels. Why even have a meeting if they don't plan on helping out the people in need?? Doesn't make sense. It greats an atmosphere full of gossip and shame.

Maybe use some of the billions they have taken from members and help out people in need. This is a painfully obvious one. Seems like they only use that .007% of the tithing money to go visit economically poor countries in warm climates so they can take pictures with the natives and enjoy the nice scenery.

Get them stooges who sit in front of the church to sit down with the members. Are we not there to worship God?? Them clowns sitting up in the front of the church carry on like they are God's gift to the world. Should have been my first sign to bolt.

Stop with the gender trip! So many people seem to have issues with gender in this cult. You can clearly see the toll it takes on the female members of the church. I made the mistake of talking with a single female member once. You should have seen these people come over and rudely get involved in our our conversation. I wasn't trying to court her or visa versa. Lots of them have sick minds and find it hard to imagine people of the opposite sex actually having a decent discussion. Sorry, not everyone is as creepy as you Sir Bishop Beaverhunter.

Quit trying to act like you are NOT racist by putting pictures of seemingly happy families from Asia, Africa, etc on your fake ass brochures promoting things that you don't even stand for. The only reason they are doing this is because most of the people in North America already now the 10% tithing hustle. It is also easy to get newly arrived immigrants to attend church.

I could go on and on. The truth is that this religion IS bound for a huge falling out. The only thing keeping them afloat is the billions of tithing money they have scored from people.

A recent factual account of one case is given in “The Sins of Brother Curtis” by Lisa Davis, in which a victim of a church pedophile sued the church. The victim claimed that the church was well aware that Curtis was a pedophile but covered it up over and over, enabling him to continue his trail of abuse.

from p. 152 (my capitals added):

“The LDS church's lawyers [argued]: ‘It is not the role of the secular court to pass [judgment] on the wisdom of the ecclesiastical decision to forgive, EVEN IF THAT DECISION ALLEDGEDLY CREATES NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES TO THIRD PARTIES.’

“It was hard to ignore how utterly divorced the words on paper were from the matter at hand, that children had been sexually violated by a trusted member of the religious community… to [the main prosecuting attorney], the Mormon church seemed to be taking the arrogant position that it had a constitutional right to molest children.”

"If I could only choose one of my suggestions, it would be the first one: Stop thinking like a corporation and start acting like a charity (even John's question is a sympton of this mentality). I estimated that less than 0.5% of the cash donated by the membership goes towards humanitarian aid. That percentage jumps up to 1.7% when donated goods and services are included, but that is still pitifully small for a church that takes in over 6 billion per year in tithing, plus all of the profits from its investments and businesses."

I vote this one as well.

1. Finanacial transparency
2. Increased humanitarian aid
3. No more mandatory tithing
4. No more correlation
5. Increase church activities and services to members back to 1970's levels. In support of that, provide more funding for activities.
6. No more interviews of youth without a parent present.
7. No more mention of masturbation as a sin. Acknowledge it as being a normal, healthy activity.
8. Hire back the janitors
9. Cut the 3-hour block drastically. Maybe alternate Sunday School with Priesthood/Relief Society
10. Dramatically reduce meetings that are outside of the Sunday block
11. Cut all missions for young people to one year.
12. The church should fund those missions!
13. More emphasis on humanitarian aid in missons
14. Encourage converts to marry outside of the temple so that their family members can be present.
15. No more wait time between civil and temple marriages
16. Talks from the GA's that explicity forbid shunning of family members for apostasy

require public civil weddings before sealings

allow girls to pass the sacrament

allow women to do blessings

2 adults in all youth interviews, one a woman for girls' interviews.

apologize to Blacks

make the full CHI public

for while viewing it, I received a vision of Lokai and Bele fighting in their last battlefield, and learned the truthfulness of things taught by Roddenberry in 1969, and it burned in my bosom.

jpt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> for while viewing it, I received a vision of Lokai
> and Bele fighting in their last battlefield, and
> learned the truthfulness of things taught by
> Roddenberry in 1969, and it burned in my bosom.


Awesome :)

I would change the idea that women are only good for popping out babies and to encourage them to get an education.

Wait for marriage and find LOVE not just a "worthy" mate.

Gays are fantastic people who have rights just like any straight couple.

NO interviews with minors, unless and only when a parent is present.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2011 07:24PM by heather.

Don't change a thing.. let it die a natural intellectual death

m Wrote:
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> Don't change a thing.. let it die a natural
> intellectual death


I don't think that will happen, but I do think that change has always been a part of Mormonism. Perhaps if the consciousness level of the membership was raised, pressure would build towards positive change. It has happened repeatedly in the past, there is no reason to think that it will not continue.

How can we change Alchemy to make it more scientific?

How can we improve on psychic communications with the dead?

How can we modify the legend of Big Foot to facilitate belief?

How can we modify homeopathy so that it is more like modern medicine?

How should Astrology be modified to make it more useful?

How should Mormonism be improved? If you are starting with something completely false, is it logical to keep any of it?

Are there any religions that are logical? I wish I could just walk away from the church and let it go on its merry way, but I have lots of family that will always be in it. It is always going to be there in my life whether I like it or not. So, I have a vested interest in the improvment of the church. I suspect that I am not the only one here who does.

The church has made a great many improvments during its existance. It stopped practicing polygamy, eventually. It stopped barring blacks from the priesthood and the temple, removed the anti-government and blood atonment oaths from the temple, and backed off its claim that the primary ancestors of the Native Americans were the Lamanites. These were not dealing with trivial aspects of the church but were changes to the core of Mormonism.

The catalysts for these changes did not come from the leadership of the church, but were due to pressure from both within and without the church. The church will change when it needs to in order to survive. I just wish that the consiousness of the membership would rise up to the point where the church would be forced to change for the better once more.

I maybe off a year a or two, but that's the recollection according to Michael Quinn in one of his books.

Apparently, in that year the morg did a lot of deficit spending to build churches in the UK and thought it best to keep it off the public record. I think they fell in love with the "convenience" that afforded them and it stuck.

Great points in the video especially on financial transparency and losing the "all true, all false" dichotomy.

I cannot help but think that a serious storm is brewing and that LDS, Inc. is definitely going to suffer the same fate as RLDS (now CofC) and Scientology with a dramatic dip in numbers driven largely by the internet. It's a just a matter of time.

However, ultimately, you have to follow the money and LDS, Inc. has VERY deep pockets. The tithing revenue drop-off will definitely be the catalyst for major restructuring at any rate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2011 02:03PM by mrtranquility.