I never thought about it but eXwife asked our Son on Xmas if he'd have to get circumcised as an adult even though he is already circumcised. He said he did, but just to get a drop of blood. "There are two ritual requirements:
A male convert must undergo circumcision - if they are already circumcised, a single drop of blood is drawn as a symbolic circumcision."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/beliefs/conversion.shtml#:~:text=There%20are%20also%20two%20ritual,a%20mikveh%2C%20with%20appropriate%20prayers

Hopefully the Mohel doesn't still suck the blood from the wound.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/health/health-topics/safe-bris.page

I said to my wife, who is Jewish, WTF is with the fixation on penises?
She said,"What religion isn't fixated on penises?"
Good point

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I said to my wife, who is Jewish, WTF is with the
> fixation on penises?
> She said,"What religion isn't fixated on
> penises?"
> Good point

Well, FWIW, the apostles said that circumcision was not required to become a Christian, so perhaps Christians aren’t fixated on penises. Just sayin...

Oh, let's see. Priest celibacy. opposition to masturbation, contraceptives, abortion, LGBTQ, for LDS, youth interviews with bishop with lots of questions about their sexual practices.....

Christians aren't fixated on penises? They are certainly fixated on general sexuality.

Priestly celibacy is only the Roman Catholic Church. “Priests” is another subset. Bishop interviews is Mormons. Non of what you decry is straight out of the Bible. Only one group or another’s take on it or twist of it.

The Bible has plenty to say about where one may put their penis.

Leviticus:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13

Romans 1:26–27:
That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

1 Corinthians 6:9–11; 1 Timothy 1:8–11:
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

We know that the law is good when used correctly. For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.

NLI4this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I said to my wife, who is Jewish, WTF is with
> the
> > fixation on penises?
> > She said,"What religion isn't fixated on
> > penises?"
> > Good point
>
> Well, FWIW, the apostles said that circumcision
> was not required to become a Christian, so perhaps
> Christians aren’t fixated on penises. Just
> sayin...


Actually there was a big fight amongst Jews in the Jesus Movement -- Christianity started as a cult -- about whether a Gentile could become a Christian period. When they got over that hurdle, the issue of circumcision was another fight, so yeah. You're wrong.

Big fight? Yes. But the settled matter was that it wasn’t required (i.e. not a big deal). Yes, the Jewish Christians thought it was a big deal, but it was because it’s a big deal to them. But they decided ultimately that although circumcision was required to be Jewish, it was not required to be Christian. So, for Christians, it’s not a big deal.

Hereafter his conversion to being a jew, his cut penis will be know as 'Johns'...


yup, just sayin'

My conversion to Judaism class at the University of Judaism (now: American Jewish University) had about 100 total students, of which roughly near half, sort of, were already Jews (if a potential convert to Judaism was in a serious relationship with a Jew, both members of that couple were supposed to go through the educational sequence together).

Obviously, those males who were NOT already Jews often had to have "complete" circumcisions (the foreskin needed to be surgically removed by a mohel: a "Jewish circumciser," who in the case of our conversion class was always, also, an M.D.).

If an already circumcised male was converting to Judaism, then the requirement was a "symbolic" circumcision (also done by an M.D.) where a surgical needle would be used to produce a single drop of blood on the head of the penis (with the proper blessings said, both before and after the deed was done).

Reports to us (the females in our conversion class), within days after the circumcisions/"symbolic" circumcisions had occurred, was that the symbolics hurt more than the complete circumcisions did, but in all cases the pain was bearable.

All of our class circumcisions/symbolic circumcisions were timed so that healing would be completed (and any scabbing would be completely and naturally removed) before we had our class mikvah ("ritual bath"), which would be--according to Jewish law--the actual moment we transitioned into becoming legal Jews. Because the physical mikvah at the U.J. was not in operation at that time, our class mikvah was the Pacific Ocean (oceans are kosher mikvaot, and so are rivers).

Please tell your son that I said "Mazel Tov!!," and that I am very happy to welcome him into "the family," as he formally and legally becomes part of the Jewish people.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2020 07:28PM by Tevai.

“She said,"What religion isn't fixated on penises?"”

So John Allegro’s “The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross” would be a good read.

I once had dinner with John Allegro. He had some interesting stories about the dead sea scrolls.

I once ate a Lego. It didn't go well.

Eating a Lego has to be way better than stepping on one.

The perks of Mormonism before the buzzkill.

Something I do not understand:

If your ex-wife is Jewish, and she is your son's mother, then he is ALREADY a Jew--and has been a Jew since his birth--so he wouldn't have to legally (means: according to Jewish law) convert to Judaism.

Therefore....he was born to another woman who is not your ex-wife?

I'm not attempting to get into your private business here, I just don't understand why your son "isn't" Jewish if, according to Jewish law, he has always been Jewish since his birth.

?????

His current wife is Jewish.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something I do not understand:
>
> If your ex-wife is Jewish,


She's not.
She's an ExMo Atheist.
Current wife is a never Mo Atheist/Jewish ancestry.

Thank you for the explanation!!

Couldn’t your stake patriarch declare him of the house of Levi?

They just needed to ask questions about my dick whilst I began to try and traverse puberty and right away my first thoughts became active about getting away from these people.

I feel so sorry for your boy.

Huntedas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel so sorry for your boy.

If I am understanding you correctly, this is a far different situation than what you went through.

The OP's son is SEEKING (of his own free will) to become a Jew, and as a male, he must fulfill the Jewish law which says that male Jews must be circumcised in conformity with Jewish law. [See: Genesis 17:13...."He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."]

Circumcision within Judaism has nothing whatsoever to do with sexuality of any kind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2020 10:43PM by Tevai.

[Adult Language]

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huntedas Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I feel so sorry for your boy.
>
> If I am understanding you correctly, this is a far
> different situation than what you went through.
>
> The OP's son is SEEKING (of his own free will) to
> become a Jew, and as a male, he must fulfill the
> Jewish law which says that male Jews must be
> circumcised in conformity with Jewish law.
>
> Circumcision within Judaism has nothing whatsoever
> to do with sexuality of any kind.

You're fucked up as the poor boy in your thinker head then. Somebody is testing you when they mess with how vulnerable you might be when your pussy is grabbed, You know this, so why not quit your deeply instilled disapproval of men and cut (pun) the kid a break?

Someone in a religious position (LDS) is best to not addres such a touchy subject with me. We might as well drop it.

https://www.inc.com/thomas-koulopoulos/the-one-thing-you-should-never-do-when-you-negotiate-hint-put-away-the-gloves.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2020 01:15AM by Tevai.

[Adult Language]

Huntedas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're fucked up as the poor boy in your thinker
> head then. Somebody is testing you when they mess
> with how vulnerable you might be when your pussy
> is grabbed,

There is no such physical requirement in Judaism for females, and males who seek conversion to Judaism are told right up front that circumcision (for those who have not been circumcised), or [alternatively] "symbolic" circumcision, are requirements of Jewish law for all males (with Reform Judaism, one of Judaism's "denominations," as the possible exception)....just as they are told about the necessity of going through a mikvah (Reform Judaism MIGHT be an exception here; I don't know), and a Bet Din (rabbinical court; our Bet Din was our three teachers who were, during that Bet Din, acting not as teachers but as legal judges).


> You know this, so why not quit your
> deeply instilled disapproval of men....

You picked the wrong female to say this particular thing about. It sounds like this is part of your regular schtick, and it is amusingly wrong.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2020 01:16AM by Tevai.

> You picked the wrong female to say this particular
> thing about. It sounds like this is part of your
> regular schtick, and it is amusingly wrong.

Yep.

The ancient desert religion was all about the sexual organ, specifically the male sex organ. You can find plenty of scholarly writings on this delving into the beginnings of the religion. It's all about making a sacrifice to God.

The greatest sacrifice a male could give to God was to sever his penis. Since that didn't work out so well for the religion, men were encouraged not to cut their penises off, but instead only to cut the foreskin off. This enabled the religion to survive. It would not have survived if they had kept cutting off their penises. No kids = the end of the religion.
THAT is the origin of circumcision.

And why in the world would God be obsessed with making every male get circumcised? What is God's fascination with that? Why would God suddenly be happy if a man's penis bleeds? (Weird type of God)

It could be related to Santeria’s ritual shedding of blood with sacrificial animals such as goats and chickens. I think the priest sucks the blood as part of the ritual. The rites are harder to practice these days what with the animal cruelty laws. Obviously the Jewish convert keeps his wiener, but the principle is similar. Cuban slaves brought their tradition from Africa, so who knows if it migrated from ancient Israel? There could be some alchemical basis for it.

There's lots of speculation as to the "why" of circumcision, but there is no consensus explanation.

Like a lot of the law, it's described but not explained.

Could have been a type of war trophy from way back. A convenient way of counting kills after a battle.

If someone wants to be surgically circumcised as an adult, so what?

Waaay too much information for the warrior. All penises should be left out of religion but they can't leave it alone. They have to be cut and then be asked about in every two seconds in interviews. Hasn't this private part been through enough? I think so.

My DH had a bris. His Dad was Jewish, his Mom converted so she could marry him. She wasn’t really converted though, and when she found the Mormons she converted and pulled DH out of Hebrew school and had him baptized. Later his Dad also converted and became somewhat of a local celebrity.

Years later when we left Mormonism, DH spent some time with a local Conservative rabbi. He was willing to have a bar mitzvah, but the rabbi reassured him that he did have a Jewish mother and was therefore Jewish. That was enough for him. I do know several men who married Jewish women and did have a bar mitzvah after converting. I don’t know if they were circumcised though.

Our boy’s were circumcised in the hospital after birth as was the practice back then. They considered themselves Jewish although not religious.

Whether or not this adds to anyone’s wisdom doesn’t matter now. I just like telling the story.

Thank you for sharing your family story!

A few generations back on my mom’s family tree some Jewish ancestors emigrated to escape persecution in Poland. They assimilated here and were not religious, but it was important to my mom and her mom to remind us from time to time that by matrilineal descent we are Jewish.

One of my brothers took it very seriously and nearly converted, but ultimately ended up fellowshipping with a Messianic Jewish group, and Jews for Jesus, and then married a Catholic woman. So, like many folks here, his spiritual journey was long and varied! He passed away a few years ago.

Anyway, my mom had no daughters, so the matrilineal descent ended with her. I sometimes wish that I had at least learned to speak Hebrew.

Unfortunately, one brother married a Mormon girl straight out of high school, and now roughly half of our extended family is TBM: another convert and a bunch of BiC kids. Sometimes it seems that with the Morg resistance is futile.

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of my brothers took it very seriously and
> nearly converted....

Your brother had no need to convert--he was born a Jew.


> I sometimes wish that I had at least learned to speak Hebrew.

If you are interested, there are many videos on YouTube on how to speak, and how to read (phonetically, at minimum) Hebrew.

There are also primers to teach Hebrew which are written specifically for adults, and with these adult-oriented primers, they are usually organized "reading first" [so: briefly delaying the beginning of spoken Hebrew until after you can, at minimum, read a passage in Hebrew phonetically (whether you initially understand what you are reading or not)].

If you are interested in the adult primers, find out which stores in your area sell Jewish goods (books, mezuzahs, candle holders of various kinds for the different Jewish holidays, Jewish ritual wear such as kippahs and prayer shawls, etc.).

If you phone your local Jewish synagogue or community center, most anyone will know where your nearest "Jewish store" is.

In addition to their books, they will also carry a variety of Hebrew learning aids: books for all age levels, flash cards, very likely a variety of audio-visual programs, etc.

When I was in Israel, I bought almost a complete set of the "Gingi" (Hebrew nickname for someone with red hair, in this case the boy protagonist) books, because they were just above alphabet-learning level (it was assumed that any "Gingi" reader would already know the Hebrew alphabet), but quite considerably below adult reading level--which meant they were perfect for my level of Hebrew "literacy," such as it was, at that time.

Jewish book/gift/religious article stores also carry "magic slates" which can be written upon with an included wooden "pencil" (there is no lead in the "pencil," it is just a pencil-sized and shaped piece of smooth wood), which can be erased instantly by raising up the single plastic top "page," and these magic slates have the Hebrew alphabet in both "block" and "cursive"/"handwriting" forms printed on the top section of the "slate" (complete with helpful rounded arrows which indicate where you start a letter, etc.). I've bought several of these in my life, and I highly recommend them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2020 02:21PM by Tevai.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One of my brothers took it very seriously and
> > nearly converted....
>
> Your brother had no need to convert--he was born a
> Jew.


Thanks, Tevai. I didn't mean go through the official conversion process so much as make the decision to commit to converting his beliefs, if that makes sense.



> > I sometimes wish that I had at least learned to
> speak Hebrew.
>
> If you are interested, there are many ...


Thanks for all the tips. My late wife used to tease me that I needed to finish the projects I've started before taking on more. TBH, I'm trying to finish up a number of things.



> When I was in Israel, I bought almost a complete
> set of the "Gingi" (Hebrew nickname for someone
> with red hair, in this case the boy protagonist)
> books, because they were just above
> alphabet-learning level (it was assumed that any
> "Gingi" reader would already know the Hebrew
> alphabet), but quite considerably below adult
> reading level--which meant they were perfect for
> my level of Hebrew "literacy," such as it was, at
> that time.


I can definitely identify with this. When I lived in Switzerland, and was working on French, I read a lot of Tin Tin! :)

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can definitely identify with this. When I lived
> in Switzerland, and was working on French, I read
> a lot of Tin Tin! :)

:D

I sent him a quote from Ellaina Bobbit, "Don't be afraid to cut someone off."

This sort of reminds me of the quote that goes something like "the difference between a cult and a religion is about 1,000 years".

The idea of circumcision being accepted is disgusting in every way, shape, or form. We rally against female genital mutilation, even if for religious or cultural purposes, but we not only accept, but even regularly joke about male genital mutilation. If your religion requires you to mutilate your genitals, or even worse the genitals of a newborn infant who is incapable of consent, your religion is disgusting.

Exactly!

Agree. It's one thing to make a decision with a medical specialist through personal choice or medical need. It's quite another when religion dictates anything related to this as part of a ritual.

In this day and age, with all the cherry picking they justify, why they continue this of all things from the goat herder book of rules is mind boggling to me.

If a religion wants you to remove clothes or do anything regarding private parts (including questions about them), I can't believe people go along with it nowadays. I can't imagine needing to belong so badly that I would be that submissive, but there was I time when I allowed whatever my religion said too.

I personally would not want to be a member of a religion that requires body modification.

I wonder if it will be a court battle at some point. Circumcision has been accepted in the U.S. for a very long time, due to the argument that it supports health. I wonder if people's opinions will change about that.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I personally would not want to be a member of a
> religion that requires body modification.

I would not want to be a member of any religion, period.

Yes, the rates are declining. There is a movement in the U.S. to educate people about the dangers, human rights violation, and long term negative effects of routine infant circumcision. It's a money-making industry and people can be difficult to educate, but over time, it's working. Thankfully so.

That said, I think if someone wants to perform body modification on themselves as a consenting adult, it should be up to them. I pity them, but, it's their choice. Inflicting it on a child is a different story, and should be outlawed, regardless of parents religion or desires (as is FGM).

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/circumcision-rates-by-state

Also:

"A growing number of medical providers of all specialties in North America and elsewhere are declining – even refusing – to be involved in non-therapeutic, cultural genital reduction surgeries upon minors. And the fact that non-therapeutic genital cutting of North American boys offends human rights – and is thus a suitable cause for requesting conscientious objector (C/O) status – has not gone unnoticed by the medical community:"

"Non-therapeutic circumcision provides an easily arguable and valid case for conscientious objection, even in states without specific legal protections for conscientious objectors, for the simple reasons that:

Circumcision violates all five principles of modern bioethics, and many human rights principles.
Circumcision endangers healthy minors who are in no need of genital surgery.
Circumcision is medically unnecessary since the claimed (and debatable) prophylaxis is easily provided by less intrusive, more conservative means.
Circumcision is a culturally driven practice, not medically-indicated, therapeutic, evidence-based care."

https://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/for-professionals/conscientious-objection/?fbclid=IwAR0mpzryIQEx84DJSDXvuJByAu0eNZe72CaugR4QpxdN6GZgw-f10nbEzmY

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

TMI,we know we know!

Happy New Year!