My grandpa has been on a very long slow decline and is in his last week. I visited last week and heard a little bit of the kool aid talk from my aunts but that was more about the political climate. I'm positive that when I go back over there, whether I make it before or after grandpa goes, grandma (who told me one Thanksgiving she wanted to deck me for leaving the church) is going to take this opportunity to dig into me about it again. What kinds of responses are caring yet firm when people use grief to whip you over your beliefs?

This might be the time to just understand grandma has invested her whole life in a cult and grandpa just died. She is too invested at this point and it might be cruel to explain that everything she values is bunk to you. She doesn't get a do-over.
Unfortunately, she honestly thinks she needs to help you get into her version of heaven.

So you have some choices. If grandma is old and you don't have to see her much, you can smile and nod and tell her whatever she needs to hear to shut her up. Then go on your merry way.

Or you can put your foot down and tell her you do not wish to discuss it and leave if she does.

My mom's last words to me as she died were begging me to go back to church. Looking back, I think I could have been the bigger person and not insisted on making her accept my views.

I don't have an answer for you. Being honest with her is important too.

I would say if you have to see them often you will probably need to lay some ground rules about what topics you will not discuss. Good luck!

dagny Wrote:
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“My mom's last words to me as she died were begging me to go back to church. Looking back, I think I could have been the bigger person and not insisted on making her accept my views.”

==I hope I am not out of line when I say this but some people don’t understand that belief is not a choice.
If you do not believe in the stories of Joseph Smith, that’s because they don’t make sense and that there is no scientific backing to them.
How many people believe that UFOs (aliens) have really visited the Earth and abducted a few people? To many people, it does not make sense what a few claim. When I say few, there are thousands. All of them together amount to some kind of evidence but is it solid enough to accept that aliens are visiting us?

If a family member claims that he was abducted, I am not going to believe him just to make him feel good. I take reality seriously. I want to be as close to the truth as possible. Everyone must have good filters to block off bullshit.
Science works the same way and that is how it has garnered to much respect. It has strong filters to keep the garbage out.

~~~~iceman9090

I do take your point. However, some people are just too delusional or stupid to to spend any effort trying to teach them a lesson they will never understand.

I ran across an alien probe guy discussing his "facts" once and it would have been more productive trying to teach a pig to sing.

I agree with you that facts deserve to get supported over mollycoddling delusions, but sometimes we can be delusional thinking the person has the ability to distinguish facts over emotion.

dagny Wrote:
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“I ran across an alien probe guy discussing his "facts" once and it would have been more productive trying to teach a pig to sing.”

==I have spoken to all sorts of people:
1. Free energy believers
2. Flat earth (there is a firmament according to the Bible, a dome over the Earth, no one can cross it, there are no artificial satellites)
3. NASA did not go to the Moon in 1969
4. HHO
5. Homeopathy
6. Astrology
7. Various religions, mostly christianity.
8. Psychic
9. Quantum physics and consciousness bulldip.
10. Homosexuality
11. Gun control
12. ahhhhhhh list getting too long.

For physics relating things, such as 1 and 2, it didn’t matter what evidence I presented and the math I presented.
I’ve had a ton of experience with christians.
It doesn’t matter what fault you show in the Bible. The person might be against murder, violence, misogyny but when it comes to their god, he is allowed to do anything he wants, he is the untouchable one.

I found out that you can’t change people’s minds when it comes to the above topics. Other have noticed the same.
The only case where I was able to change a mind (an vice versa) was in science forums. Since we are all evidence driven there, once the evidence is presented, we say thank you and you get a thumbs up or down.

“I agree with you that facts deserve to get supported over mollycoddling delusions, but sometimes we can be delusional thinking the person has the ability to distinguish facts over emotion.”

==My goal is no longer to change people’s minds. I am just in it to collect data. There have been couple of cases where perhaps the christian changed their mind. I don’t know since they won’t come out and say it.

As for gun control, I changed my own mind. I think it is beneficial for everyone to have one since the good outnumber the very scummy people.
A good dose of social programs helps as well.

~~~~iceman9090

"I'm sure you can understand, Grandma, that I need to be honest and true to myself otherwise I would have no integrity."

I received a letter once from my father and among other guilt trip lines offered up was the one that really stung,"I'm glad your grandmother died before she found out about you." As in "found out about me being apostate AND gay."


They are so sure we are lost and deceived. There is no way to convince that you aren't because . . . Mormons. Showing a steely resolve, even only in your eyes, will make you feel better about yourself no matter their reaction. Understatement and class all the way is usually the best way to go.

My father once said to me, "What you are doing is wrong and you know it!" My reply was "What I am doing is not wrong and I don't know it." Came out all wrong. But. My tone and the look in my eye said what needed to be said.

In the end we just love them all anyway. My dad came to see who I really was and liked me in the end which was more important to me than being loved.

They just want to save you. I love my TBM family but boy can they be trying. Meanwhile I'm perfect of course, haha.

Good luck.


I'd have a look at the black girls faces who got spit on at the lunch counter during a civil rights protest. Dignity is a great tool.

I love this response.

"What I am doing is not wrong and I don't know it."

Being gay, not believing, thinking differently are all "not wrong" and the gaslighting and social pressures are. And because of them we are insecure about knowing we are not doing wrong.

Done & Done Wrote:
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“Showing a steely resolve”

==What’s that?

“My father once said to me, "What you are doing is wrong and you know it!"”

==Let’s put it this way:
Your father is a human and humans are sinners and born in sin according to christianity.
The choice he made is wrong and he knows it.
So tell him to stop being a human, to take his human bones, blood, veins, brain and all humans components out and throw it in the trash.

And then he can give others advice about not being a sinner.
It’s the take the needle out of your own eye first. Clean your own room first before telling me to clean mine. Polish your own shoes first before ……...


~~~~iceman9090

Steely resolve is used to emphasize that a person is hard, strong, and determined;Any indecision has been replaced by confidence and, again, steely determination.

Add a dose of class and kindness and it's like a tempered butter knife.

The "you know it" is an old sales technique. It is old because it works. Sometimes. "Best Foods is better than Miracle Whip! You know it is true!" We recently had a politician that used it a lot. It puts the other person on the defensive.

You got it, Susan. Only difference is my Dad just wanted to save me while a politician used the phrase to throw everyone under the bus so he could be "winner take all."

Amusingly, my father swore by Miracle Whip and I switched to Best Foods the second I left home. What a metaphor!

First: religious violence predates the glorious days of the
Spanish Inquisition when "heretics" were tortured and burned alive.
Second: Don't expect anything different from modern sanctimonious, hypocritical, bigots because they are always with us. I sympathize with your situation but the only way I see to avoid it is STAY AWAY FROM IT.... You just can't cure stupid!!!!!

dinosaurprincess Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My grandpa has been on a very long slow decline
> and is in his last week. I visited last week and
> heard a little bit of the kool aid talk from my
> aunts but that was more about the political
> climate. I'm positive that when I go back over
> there, whether I make it before or after grandpa
> goes, grandma (who told me one Thanksgiving she
> wanted to deck me for leaving the church) is going
> to take this opportunity to dig into me about it
> again. What kinds of responses are caring yet firm
> when people use grief to whip you over your
> beliefs?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2021 01:28PM by thedesertrat1.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
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It's best not to call them stupid.
Although, if they haven't noticed the lack of scientific evidence for their.... oh boy, that's pretty sad.

You also have to take into account that perhaps your family members miss you.
You have to find out if they have decided to change their attitude.

~~~~iceman9090

I would tell her that if she feels the need to go to Mormon VIP Heaven, that she can always come visit you.

I should add, while it would be nice to show compassion, someone who says that they want to "deck you" is not particularly in need of the niceties in return. JMO.

Sometimes I indulge in a little God talk with true believers.

Especially if someone is in the midst of terrible grief.

I'm pretty hard core atheist, but I might say something like, "Grandma, I'm sure God will look at my heart and forgive and love me."

How can Grandma claim that God fails to love and forgive?

Grandma is just afraid of the afterlife. She might be feeling guilty that she did something or didn't do something that caused you to stray.

Mormons claim that they know about what happens after they die, but they seem terrified. Reassure her with talk about love and kindness.

Dorothy Wrote:
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Good point. However in the christian flavor of religion, if you don't worship the jewish god, then he is not your friend.
In the Jesus section (the new testament), there is something about "if you turn your back to him, he will disown you in front of his father".

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

~~~~iceman9090

My comments really had nothing to do with God or scriptures.

Sometimes religious people need to be reminded that love, kindness and compassion are universal human values.

Neither state your beliefs to your grandmother nor defend them. Too many exmos find out the hard way that such approaches fall upon deaf ears!

Instead, if/when Grandma scolds you, smile affectionately and say, “I am very clear about your feelings on this matter.” This respectfully allows your grandmother her point of view without requiring any agreement with it on your part.

If Grandma then huffs something like, “So what are you going to do about it?” you might reply, “I am going to respect your beliefs just as I respect my own.”

To repeat: Neither state your beliefs nor defend them. DO NOT ENGAGE in an argument neither of you can “win.”

Tell her that Larry King is keenly interested in interviewing grandpa about his Mormon beliefs when he reaches the pearly gates. If you have any faith promoting stories, pile those on too. It’s a little late for the brutal truth.

dinosaurprincess Wrote:
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> My grandpa has been on a very long slow decline
> and is in his last week.

My father died yesterday. He has like 50 grandchildren. He was in a very slow decline and my mother sounds like you grandmother without the threat of physical violence.

I could pretend to be your exmo uncle. If I were I would tell a niece or nephew in your position to tolerate my mother's pestering if their relationship with her is important. You have the benefit of not having been raised and suckled by her.

I was a decade estranged from my parents and most of my siblings because of the church among other things. We are a toxic crew. I have to make a conscious effort to not fall into the old habits our egocentric mother helped us develop with each other.

At one point in my father's decline we weren't talking about it to each other because we knew mother would find out and she at the time was in denial about his imminent death.

> What kinds of responses are caring yet firm
> when people use grief to whip you over your
> beliefs?

With true believers there are none in my opinion. You can be polite and civil but I've had to say, I don't share your beliefs so please don't act as if I do. My siblings took a very long time to get the message after I initiated contact again. But they got it. My mother never will.