My brother goes to a medical school back east and has four mormons in his class. He likes them all. However, people talk about them behind their backs. Why is this?

They're in their late twenties, with 4 or 5 kids at home with a non-working mom. Because of this, they're the butt of jokes.

Why humiliate yourself? And raise your children in poverty? And why go into medicine and have your salary devoured by having such a large family and student loans?

But also, why do people old enough to go to medical school still gossip and laugh at someone else's expense like a bunch of elementary school children? I don't want people like those as my doctors...

Look, there is no love lost between me and Mormonism. However, that does not mean I have to subscribe to the popular notions on this board of what is right and good.

I'm not a proponenet of a twenty-somethings having 4-5 kids and no way to support them. However I don't think it is right to make fun of them...No more than it would be to make fun of someone foolish enough to move in with someone they aren't ready to make a permanent marriage commitment to.

out

I think it is mean and wrong of them to make fun of the mormons in their class. Exmormons want to be respected and mormons do as well. Every human being should receive respect and not be judged, regardless of what they believe, just as a matter of kindness and common courtesy.

All 3 of my boys went to dental school after 4 years of college, and 2 specialized after even that, and I do not think they were ever the butt of anyone's jokes. There were actually many mormons in their classes.

Medical and dental schools know that mormons make good students, as they are usually a bit older and serious about life from having served missions and most are married with a child or 2. At least when my boys attended, there were quite a few mormons in all of their classes. My oldest son was valedictorian in his dental class, and the other 2 graduated high in their respective classes.

Being an RN, I only have one complaint with mormons doctors, and it is a big one. I worked at a hospital in the morridor in L and D with many doctors, the majority mormon, and I can honestly say as a whole they were not good at all when it came to empathy.

They were plenty skilled in delivering babies, but I just saw very little real honest caring about what their patients were going through. I saw complete indifference, for the most part, even when babies died. Their attitude seemed to be "let's just get this over with so I can get back on the golf course".

I do not know why but the kindest and most caring Dr.'s I worked with were either of a different faith or no faith at all. It was honestly shocking to see the difference. I wondered forever why this was the case.

My best guess? The mo Doc's get so darn burned out by all of the church demands on their time, many were in bishoprics and SP's, that they just burn out of their professions quicker. That is just a guess, but I saw this uncaring attitude over and over and over from the mo Doc's.

I will never be sure of why, but my observation was that they just did not care, I can not honestly think of one that really did care, or even seemed to in any way. It was always a rush job, and "BTW, please do not call or bother me until the head is coming out." I delivered quite a few babies on my own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 02:49AM by think4u.

Back in the 70s the ONLY MORMON Dr. in our college town had a standing order regarding new mothers.....

DO NOT LET HER HAVE HER BABY FOR THE FIRST 24 HOURS AFTER BIRTH!

And still there were idiot moron women who would go to him to have their babies because he was LDS!!

I went to a partnership of three OB/GYNS who were devout Catholics. Women would drive 80 miles from Spokane to have them catch their babies in the little college town of Pullman Washington! They were excellent and had the attitude; We deal with life here.

They let the Fathers be with the Mother through the whole birth, even if it was a C-section.
Spokane hospitals at the time didn't allow Fathers to be with the Mothers and insisted all Mothers had to take drugs during labor.... no exceptions.

The Mormon Dr. was one of two who did abortions also. A huge disconnect for LDS women/doctrine in the late 70s!

researching Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But also, why do people old enough to go to
> medical school still gossip and laugh at someone
> else's expense like a bunch of elementary school
> children? I don't want people like those as my
> doctors...


Please explain Levi's dream to a NeverMo... thanks!

I kind of disagree. I don't want someone as a doctor that believes they can pour olive oil on my head and bless me to be healed. I want a doctor that understands the science of medicine and knows how to heal.

I would be tempted to tease mormon medical students too. Maybe ask them if they have been trying to raise cadavers from the dead again.

And the sad thing is, if these Mormons knew they were being made fun of, they'd say it was proof they were doing what the Lord wanted because the unrighteous always make fun of the righteous. Remember the whole story of Lehi's dream, right?

They don't realize that it's not particularly righteous to incur tons of unnecessary debt, drag your wife through poverty and make your kids skimp by on nothing - or on what Grandpa and Grandma can provide. I'm teaching my kids to get as much of their schooling done as possible before they settle down. Preferably all of it. I've pointed out how long their dad and I have been struggling to pay off student debt - although our situation is a little different because dad decided to change careers in his 30s and go back to school. But if they learn it's important to get through school unencumbered with as few debts as possible, that's what matters.

Your brother's friends likely could still be laughingstocks even if they didn't have the kids or the non-working mom. When it comes to Mormonism, there is lots to pick and chose from to get a good laugh.

Just like Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Atheists, Homosexuals, African Americans, etc.

Here's the real news regarding these people and all others like them. The rest of the class that has any ounce of character really views them as the odd balls. 30 year old future doctors acting like Middle Schoolers. Ya the Mo's aren't the one's that need to worry here.

I joke about gays all the time. I think there is some legitimate reason to ridicule the gay community, as there is with virtually any group of people.

I was once asked by someone in this group if I was ever critical of the Gay community. I'm sure they thought I would be all defensive, but I, for one, have no problem with taking a joke about the gay community. There is a big difference between hateful humor and having a laugh because of that big ol' drag queen that breezed by.

People need to lighten up and not get offended over every little thing and have a good laugh at themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 12:32AM by MJ.

People need to be able to laugh at themselves. No harm in bustin balls a little bit.

We don't have enough info to know which is the case here. If it's just an occasional joke about mo's weird practices, so be it. If it's malicious or hate filled it's kinda pathetic. They're adults. I'm sure they'll all survive.

Was seriously agreeing with the point you made.

I did sort of interpret the original post as more than just harmless jabs. Maybe that's all they were???

Where you started by saying that things that are a CHOICE, like religion are somehow the same as race or sexual orientation, which are not choices.

It is one thing to ridicule someone for the choices they make, it is another to reticule them for something they can not change.

Frankly, between what you said in the "As well as highly respected contributors to society..." post, and what you said in the "Agree totally.", it seems you changed your position quite substantially.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 01:07AM by MJ.

If it's "hate based" or "mean spirited" or malicious, it doesn't matter whether the victims situation is by choice or not.

Which is worse? The handicapped student getting picked on because, well he's handicapped, or the choir student getting picked on by jocks because, well he chooses choir over football.

It's ignorant and damaging in both cased. One kid had no choice in his circumstance. The other "chose" to be part of a group.

The issue is not who the targets are. It is whether it's o.k. for them to be targets. The answer is no.

Having said all of that, I still think you make a great point about us being too sensitive at times. It's simply never appropriate though if it is mean spirited.

Then it is not my problem. I will only say that I hate Fred Phelps and the other members of the Westboro baptist church for their CHOICE of joining and promoting a RELIGIOUS group that attacks gays at every opportunity. I hate them for the CHOICES they have made and how those RELIGIOUS CHOICES affect me in such a negative way. I can judge the true character of a person BY THE CHOICES THAT THEY MAKE, and I judge Phelps and his religious followers very harshly for the decisions that they have made.

I do not hate someone just because they are black. They did not choose to be black so it is not a valid way to asses the true character of the person.

Getting picked on for an immutable characteristic is always worse than being picked on for a CHOICE. At least with a CHOICE one can change their mind and there direction. Not so for immutable characteristics.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 02:18AM by MJ.

Doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't ... there are more forces at work in a person's conditioning and upbringing than you would think. It's still their business.

You choose not to recognize the real issue. That is......When is it appropriate to pile on someone?

So it's less offensive that the choir kid gets harrassed than the handicapped kid, because the choir kid can quit if he wants. Weak logic.

It's equally offensive that they have to be subjected to that treatment.

In my experience, most (at least half) med students are in their mid to late 20's. My spouse was 32 when he graduated from med school, and people called him gramps.

Personally I don't think that making fun of someones family and religious choice behind their back is cool at all and still state that you "like" them. Just be upfront about it. He should ask these "friends" of his why they made that choice to have so many dang kids at so young an age instead of being disrespectful behind their backs. His understanding may curb the disrespectful jokes. Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint and the religion and practice thereof is Bat Poo Crazy but I have a JW coworker that is a great guy however I don't make fun of him behind his back.

Also we know well why they have made these life choices. They have been taught their entire lives that this is the right thing to do in the Lords eyes. These guys are now what many of us used to be.

This is why sometimes when lookers and doubters come here they find "haters".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 12:23AM by AmIDarkNow?.

I LOVE what you say here, AmIDarkNow, and agree totally. Great insight and a sign of your own character. There is NO reason to hate the mormon people, and like you said , we used to BE them!

And just because we chose to leave, we should always give them the same respect that we would like to receive as exmomons. The anger, when it comes, at least for me, has nothing to do with the mo people, but with those in the highest of authority that refuse to tell the truth and let people choose for themselves, having full knowledge based upon facts.

At least these mormon guys are in med school and plan on doing something with their lives. Unlike other young people both mormon and non-mormon, who have no ambition or drive to do anything more meaningful than flip burgers at night so they can hang out at the beach during the day. And look at the plus side: when these young parents are in their mid-forties, they will be empty nesters. I waited til I was almost 30 when I got married and was in my early 30s when we started having children. DW & I will still be housing minors when we are into our 50's. Who wants to have that sort of a headache at that kind of an age?

not only owing hundreds of thousands in student loans, but once finished having to devote endless hours working and never seeing your family.

have no debt to settle down could mean they are in their mid-40s or more before they marry and then it's too late to have kids, unless they want to be nearly 50 and taking kids to elementary school. (nothing wrong with that at all but not everyone wants to have a family that late in life)


college is rapidly getting to the point where it's not worth the debt..anyhoo, we had our kidlets while i was in college HOWEVER my DH was already a graduate with a full-time decent paying job so it wasnt a big deal. i would never advise a couple with no degree and no good-paying job to start having kids..

All I know is that you can pick flies out of all religions, I'm sure some of those doing the laughing belong to some religious group or another and they may be a laughing stock somewhere else.

And the choice of whether a mother goes to work or not is also on thin ground. A mother could stay at home and the kids not have all the necessary food, clothes etc but be perfectly decent kids. On the other hand the mother goes to work so the family have excess of money and the kids are total a*#holes who think the world owes them everything.

Why can't people see that while they are picking on someone, someone will pick on them. We're not immune to ridicule.

I say 'grow up people'.

Are they paying tithing on those student loans?

I'm not ashamed of that.
I was active/TBM at the time. My faith in LDSism collapsed about a year after graduating.
It was my first experience with a bunch of LDS classmates, I had seven in a class of fortyish. We definitely stood out and had a reputation.
And, collectively, we said/did some pretty stupid things. One LDS guy said in class that a particular racial stereotype was true. And, we all mentioned our missions as qualified experience in the subject, which they weren't.

However...We also got accused of things we didn't do. The main one was that we were perceived as being snobs and narcissists, expecting ourselves to be Valedictorian. In reality each one of us LDS classmates had deep personal, domestic, social, and academic insecurities and problems. One got dumped by his wife in the middle of the program. One was on academic probation. None of us were class president or honor grad. All of us naturally made good friends with classmates who WEREN'T mormon, and found that we actually had little in common with some of the mormons.
Honestly, by the end of the program the ice had thawed and classmates just weren't noticing us anymore, only occasionally like "no need to put wine at that table" (the one with two pregant mormon women at the graduation banquet). They got to know us personally, and saw us less as mormons, and as having relatively diverse experiences even as such.

By the time he finished med school he had 4 kids and was $300,000 in debt. It was much harder on him to get through all the hours and study compared to students that were single and had no family responsibility. I think most non-Mormon students felt sorry for him, but I never knew of anyone making fun of him.

He will pay back the loans and one day be out of debt. At least they stopped at four....

I guess my question is, how is it that medical and dental students are given enough money in loans to support not only themselves, but also a wife and kids? When I was in grad school (for teaching) I wasn't even given enough to support myself (even *with* a part time job.) I struggled to pay for gas, car repairs, and other necessities. I never could afford health insurance, and had to endure a significant health issue without treatment as a result. Why the disparity?

I also wonder if medical and dental students rely on the social safety net to help support their children (free and reduced-price school meals, WIC, free state-provided health insurance for children, etc.)

Why should they give a shit? Those laffing at them will be among those that don't finish. My money's on all the morgbots finishing.

Just sayin'...

Ron