i have seen the mormon church has contributed $20 million to assist with vaccine distribution.Is the church opposed to abortion?Does it not question if the vaccines come from aborted babies?

> Does it not question if the
> vaccines come from aborted
> babies?


This was totally news to me! Wowzers!

The presentation here makes it seem as if aborted fetuses are routinely either sold or donated to vaccine makers!

Here's a paragraph Google said would soothe me. The Google lady's voice was very calming:

At least five of the candidate COVID-19 vaccines use one of two human fetal cell lines: HEK-293, a kidney cell line widely used in research and industry that comes from a fetus aborted in about 1972; and PER.C6, a proprietary cell line owned by Janssen, a subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson, developed from retinal cells from an 18-week-old fetus aborted in 1985. Both cell lines were developed in the lab of molecular biologist Alex van der Eb at Leiden University. Two of the five vaccines have entered human trials..."

--https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06/abortion-opponents-protest-covid-19-vaccines-use-fetal-cells


I actually wasn't all that worried. As a male, I can pretend to be concerned with what happens to my individual sperm cells, but compared to the female POV, I'll wait in the wings while they, the women, deal with abortion.

But I do respect a woman's right not to have an abortion.


As for the position taken by church authorities, ummm... uh..., I probably don't respect it...

How's that?

Every sperm is sacred.

bradley Wrote:
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> Every sperm is sacred.

Is that why the church seems *obsessed* with male masturbation?! Asking for a friend...

mrbeel,

https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk

https://ksltv.com/451339/are-fetal-cell-lines-used-in-the-covid-19-vaccine-ksl-investigates/?

"...KSL Investigators dove into claims on social media that COVID-19 vaccines contain or utilize fetal cell lines in their development.

In the case of the Pfizer vaccine that was recently approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration — those claims are false.

Ingredients for the Moderna vaccine, which could receive authorization from the FDA within days, can be found in the company’s briefing document to the FDA. It contains the same mRNA process as the Pfizer vaccine and does not utilize fetal cell lines.

Two COVID vaccines currently in development that do use fetal cell lines are from AstraZeneca and Janssen."

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells

"No, the COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells. However, Pfizer and Moderna did perform confirmation tests (to ensure the vaccines work) using fetal cell lines.
But it's important to have the full context: Fetal cell lines are not the same as fetal tissue. Fetal cell lines are cells that grow in a laboratory. They descend from cells taken from elective abortions in the 1970s and 1980s. Those individual cells from the 1970s and 1980s have since multiplied into many new cells over the past four or five decades, creating fetal cell lines. Current fetal cell lines are thousands of generations removed from the original fetal tissue.
When it comes to the COVID-19 vaccines currently approved for emergency use, neither the Pfizer nor Moderna vaccines used fetal cell lines during the development or production phases. (So, no fetal cell lines were used to manufacture the vaccine, and they are not inside the injection you receive from your doctor.) However, both companies used the fetal cell line HEK 293 in the confirmation phase to ensure the vaccines work."

https://www.uab.edu/news/youcanuse/item/11771-debunking-the-myths-about-the-covid-19-vaccine

"Myth: The COVID-19 vaccines were developed using fetal tissue.

Neither the Pfizer nor the Moderna vaccine uses cell lines that originated in fetal tissue taken from the body of an aborted baby at any stage of design, development or production."

The pope has no problem with them

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-vaccines-vatican/vatican-permits-use-of-covid-19-vaccines-made-using-aborted-fetal-tissue-idUSKBN28V1HV

This meant that because the pandemic is such a grave danger, such vaccines “can be used in good conscience with the certain knowledge that (it) does not constitute formal cooperation with the abortion from which the cells used in production of the vaccines derive,” the note said.

In the absence of safe vaccines made from other sources, “it is morally acceptable to receive Covid-19 vaccines that have used cell lines from aborted fetuses in their research and production process.”

The Vatican note said use of such vaccines “does not in itself constitute a legitimation, even indirect, of the practice of abortion”.

Read "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks." But then, abusing Black people for the purpose of propagating a cell line for research is not like the horror of using aborted fetal tissue.

So what.
If it works, use it.
After all, no one turns down medical treatment we know was perfected in the Holocaust camps and by Japanese military Doctors on POW's in WWII.

As for Abortion - The Catholic Church is telling members "do not get Johnson & Johnson vaccine" because of their abortion drugs.

L-dS church does believe in abortion, Catholic church does not.

JoeSmith666 Wrote:
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> L-dS church does believe in abortion, Catholic
> church does not.

Really? I haven't heard that LDS is OK with abortion.

In my (very limited) experience, I knew a convert who was scheduled for baptism. She confided in the missionaries that she had had an abortion and she had to meet with the bishop to discuss it before receiving approval for baptism.

Of course, the bishop gave the OK. (But way to humiliate someone, and over an issue that is completely personal and private).

The main reason she consented to baptism was those missionaries told her she would be reunited with her "baby" after her death.

I had a lot of questions myself about it all but held my tongue. I didn't think she could be talked out of diving in anyway.

The LDS church condemns abortion at least as adamantly as the Catholic church does.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Except less vociferously.

My prospective convert pal certainly hadn't considered it to be an issue with the Mormons. But, at that time at least, I believe it was one of the pre-baptism questions. Although I can't remember the mishies asking me about it pre-dunk. But, mercifully, a lot of what went on has now, at last, faded into background noise.

Yes. In the pre-baptismal interview converts are asked if they have ever been involved in an abortion. If the answer is yes, they must be interviewed by a member of the stake presidency. I'm told it's a pretty invasive interview.

I do not believe any other baptismal interview question routinely requires the approval of the stake presidency.

Oh, I don't even remember that. I thought it was just the bishop my friend had to talk to.

Perhaps it was just like when she got raked over the coals by a triumvirate of Mormon males for having an affair (yeah, I know, not all that admirable) after baptism. I never asked and she never told me how truly awful that was. She just came out of the room where she had been in there alone with them, flushed and teary, and she didn't speak for a long time.

Mercifully, the details of my Mormon interlude are fading into twilight and I forget what punishment they meted out - whatever that thing is that's less than banishment but enough to pronounce a member unclean.

Back to the topic of the fetal tissue controversy: The details of how the vaccines were developed can be beyond some people's desire to know or ability to understand. I'm guessing some of his people at least are happy to take the position that he can make the decision for them. Others may ask if he's trying to thread a very small needle in his theological analysis of this tricky issue. But I'm glad he's not counselling his flock to spurn the vaccine. We need worldwide herd immunity for all our sakes. This is a good start towards that goal.

I think you are confusing things.

Abortion is an interview question and a "yes" answer results in an interview with the stake presidency.

The "triumvirate of Mormon males" would have been a Church Court deciding what if any punishment your friend deserved as a result of her affair. Church Courts for women are conducted by the bishop and his two counselors whereas men are tried by the SP advised by a council of high priests.

Your friend knows more about church "justice" than most Mormons will ever learn!

Thanks for the info. I do feel confused, lol.

I did know that the "church court" was for the affair. I guess I scrambled my last post. I went and waited with her at the church until they called her in but they wouldn't let me go with her. And these are men you then have to see at church forever after. Humiliating to the nth degree. And none of their damn business.

Maybe I never knew that she had to go and see the SP for the abortion (which was way in her past as a young teen). The mishies promised her that she would be "reunited" with her "children" in the CK. That makes no sense in any theology of which I am acquainted. First, to be blunt, the "children" were never fully formed nor born. Ipso facto: There are no children. Second, I have some kind of vague memory that those "children" would be "given" to another woman, according to the missionaries (but how much do 19 yr old boys really know?). Again, in that case, they wouldn't ever be my friend's children, one way or the other. I don't know if that is a Mormon position or if the missionaries were just saying anything to get a baptism under their belts. The senior comp of the pair that was "teaching" her gave me the evil eye whenever I opened my mouth to ask a question.

I didn't think my friend was going to be talked out of getting baptized so I didn't even try. She had some significant emotional issues that made it seem like a great idea to her. All she really got out of it was a bunch of overbearing male strangers thinking they could raid her memories, mind and experiences all so they could put another notch on their belts, so to speak, by somehow, by any means, first getting another lamb into the font, but embarrassing her terribly first, and thereafter taking her to "court" to rake through her pain from the ill-fated affair (with a missionary!).

And I was coming from a position of weakness myself, having preceded her into the font, to my immediate great dismay.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2021 06:08PM by Nightingale.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> The LDS church condemns abortion at least as
> adamantly as the Catholic church does.

NO, it does not. It picks and chooses when and who can get an abortion.

The Catholic Church is NO on abortion under any circumstances.

A lot of us were Mormons. If you want to disprove our experiences and those of our friends--and the Church's public statements and the plethora of articles you'll find if you do a simple Google search--please bring some evidence or argumentation.

Your declaration alone, no matter how stridently stated, is insignificant.

I have no issue with these vaccines.

From the same article --

"The Vatican’s Pontifical Academy for Life declared in 2005 and reaffirmed in 2017 that in the absence of alternatives, Catholics could, in good conscience, receive vaccines made using historical human fetal cell lines."

So the Vatican realizes that it's not going to win that fight.

There is no mention of why the fetuses were aborted -- for instance, the fetus may never have been viable.

summer Wrote:
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> There is no mention of why the fetuses were
> aborted -- for instance, the fetus may never have
> been viable.

Yes, I was thinking that. I don't know if the terminology has changed but when I was nursing the term "spontaneous abortion" was used when a woman miscarried. But that word is imbued with such negative connotations due to the furore over a choice to abort.

I was wondering if the Pope gave his blessing due to the fact of the fetal tissue being decades old. Would that make a difference? I did read that the vaccines are not developed using actual fetal tissue from the original fetuses. That is the difference that allows him to give his OK re the vaccines, as I understand it.

It probably does help a great deal in their minds. It gets very difficult for them to make the case that the great benefits of vaccination and treatment are outweighed by a flimsy at best moral argument.

I don't think the moral ambiguity associated with any vaccine even begins to hold a candle to the moral ambiguity of the Catholic Church itself. Talk about chutzpah.

Good point. When you don't work vigorously to protect children from pedophiles, you can't hold the moral high ground.

summer Wrote:
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> When you don't work vigorously to
> protect children from pedophiles, you can't hold
> the moral high ground.

Ultimately that is all that really matters, isn't it. There's nothing the Catholic Church can do to regain its credibility and influence as long as it refuses to protect children.

Makes my stomach turn. . .

Headline : "Catholic archdiocese rules that 2 approved COVID-19 vaccines are OK—but not that third one!"

"In a ruling reminiscent of medieval speculation over the number of angels that could dance on the head of a pin, the Catholic Archdiocese of New Orleans has issued a split decision on the religious acceptability of major COVID-19 vaccines. It has deemed the Pfizer and Moderna versions okay but called the new Johnson & Johnson single-shot vaccine “morally compromised” because it was derived from cloned stem cells distantly related to tissue from fetuses aborted back in the 1970s."

This is interesting.

The US Conference of Bishops wanted to reform their branch of the Church to reduce the frequency of child molestation, stop the coverups, and cooperate more sincerely with the authorities. But Pope Frank rejected that.

Now the Pope says Catholics should take the vaccines to help quell the pandemic but the US Conference of Bishops disagrees. It's almost like they are engaged in a passive-aggressive quest for something like vengeance.

On the one hand is a leader who protects child abusers, on the other leaders who want to interrupt the war against COVID. Neither is doing what's in humanity's interests.

A pox on both their houses.

I got my first shot of the Covid-19 vaccine this morning. The shot-giver pulls the needle out and then hits the starter on the 15-minute count-down machine...

Naturally, you're hyper-aware of your body during that interlude, wondering what, if any, after effect you're going to experience.

Well, I got home and discovered my penis had shrunk!!!

And that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!