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Posted by: madeguy ( )
Date: March 30, 2021 05:48PM

The Mormon church dislikes anti-Mormon narratives that try to undermine their authority.

They love it when people notice them. Even if the attention they get is from a disparaging Broadway play like 'The Book of Mormon'. It makes them part of the conversation.

What they simply cannot tolerate is your indifference to them and their claims of authority. They hate it when you just don't care. They hate it when you don't think about them at all, when they don't matter to you at all.

To most people in this world, they don't matter. To the vast majority, they are completely irrelevant, they're just a curiosity, something a little weird. Something that will never affect their lives in the slightest. Like Jehovah's Witnesses. How much do they affect you.

They don't mind you investigating church history. Just keep complaining about the 'blemishes'. As long as you stick around.

But touch the third rail, and you are dangerous. A persona non-grata. And the third rail is this: The golden plates were imaginary. There never were any golden plates. The 'witnesses' saw them with their eyes closed. They realized what the game was. And they said, 'yes, I see them.' And they are 'authorities' to anyone who believes.

Your indifference is hurtful to them. They so want you to stand when they enter a room.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: March 30, 2021 06:09PM

“What they simply cannot tolerate is your indifference to them and their claims of authority.”

I’m pretty sure they write you off as lost to Lucifer. If only you had been valiant like them. Not to worry, they have more minions than they could personally meet in a lifetime.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 30, 2021 08:52PM

"They so want you to stand when they enter a room." OH. So you've met my brother, then?

Gold Plates. The third rail. Yes. And what was supposedly written on the bed sheet swathed plates--- seen only with "spiritual eyes" (wink wink, nudge nudge)-- only adds an extra jolt of electricity. Joseph's novel is at once ridiculously absurd and boring. I think that is why they don't want you to drink coffee as you might be alert enough when reading to actually realize what a joke the BoM is. Chariots. Horses. And steel swords galore. Oh, MY!

And, they are stuck with it. Look what Jeffrey R. Holland said not long ago: "Everything in the Church—everything—rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon."

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 30, 2021 09:09PM

Done & Done Wrote:
> "Everything in the
> Church—everything—rises or falls on the
> truthfulness of the Book of Mormon."

I believe Hinckley said more or less the same thing. In either case--in both cases--the sentiments are remarkably subversive.

Indeed, I think almost all of us would agree.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 30, 2021 10:05PM

I personally am convinced that Hinckley, perhaps accidentally, spoke the truth when he said that, and he knew, perhaps only subconsciously (though I doubt that) that the BoM was indeed bunkum.

It was certainly true for me. I didn't know or much care who JS slept or tried to sleep with, or his shady business deals, etc etc. I was convinced the BoM was 19th century fiction, which was more than sufficient reason to dump Mormonism.

Odd to think the the Hinkster and I were in agreement.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 30, 2021 10:33PM

When he said that, I couldn't believe anyone would lie so baldly or falsifiably. It was as if he were subtly trying to drive thinking people out of the church.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 31, 2021 09:34AM

I Gordon the Prophet knew for sure the BoM was bull but was in a position that it felt more like a hand grenade than a phony tome. He knew how to seem to make a statement without making one at all. His face seemed to say, "Please read between the lines, folks."

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 31, 2021 09:35AM

And . . . Don't you think that when these guys become Apostles they have to sign a pretty iron clad NDA?

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Posted by: Eric K ( )
Date: March 31, 2021 11:43AM

There is nothing that a cult hates more than to be spoken of with derision or laughed at. I participate in a online (Zoom) meditation group for an hour on Sundays. We usually start with a few minutes of discussion of what is going on in our lives and then we start the meditation. I mentioned this past Sunday that DW and I are getting our 2nd shot on Jesus' birthday. They go 'what'? They were thinking the vaccine was being given on Easter. I told them that Jesus was born on April 6th - a non official part of Mormon doctrine. They all laughed. I explained that even after being out almost 3 decades, crap like that is still imbedded in us. Impossible to ever forget.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 01, 2021 11:04PM

Done & Done Wrote:
> And . . . Don't you think that when these
> guys become Apostles they have to sign a pretty
> iron clad NDA?

I don't know, D&D. I think it would be difficult to enforce an NDA without opening the church up to discovery, which would be a disaster. So perhaps they could renounce Mormonism without legal consequences.

My view is that there are other bonds, the first of which is the fact that if your whole life is Mormonism denouncing the religion comes close to social and/or psychological suicide. Also we've heard, with more or less credibility, of the apostles' signing over their assets to the church; receiving big loans that are collectable at the church's behest; and other financial and political perquisites.

What would life be like for someone who has risen through the ranks and then at the age of 70 or 80 or 90 goes public? Would it be worth living?

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 02, 2021 10:30AM

We sign a lot of NDAs in our business. Everyone thinking everyone else is out to steal their idea when actually nobody gives a crap. Also everybody in this age already knows what you can't disclose. There are no secrets. But still we keep our side of the deal because, uh, litigation is not fun.

So I'm wondering about an Apostolic NDA. Paperless and inkless of course. How do you guarantee allegiance? Has to be all about God. Even as the misdeeds of Joseph unfold, they still believe in God. And like my mother who knows now a lot of Joseph Smith's deceit, just says, "We don't know why God chose Joseph, we just know that he did." The crux of why Mormons stay no matter what.

Is it any different for the Apostles?

And they still believe that just maybe this mess of a church is God's way of doing things. And that tiny doubt keeps them from the one step over the line---Sweet Jesus. And perhaps they are inoculated before they become apostles. And chosen carefully. And swear on their honor that they will be faithful no matter what comes down the line. And so they must choose between their honor and honesty. Could that be a Sophie's Choice.

Or maybe they are all really just the shallow self serving creeps they seem to be.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: March 31, 2021 11:59AM

My next door neighbor is the bishop right now. He is reserved, but now that he is bishop, he talks to me. He pretty much knows I'm OUT. He didn't know I had resigned and had been sending ministers. I put a stop to that. They did something recently that made me realize they still are hoping I'll come back one day. I tend to do things to bug them all, to make them all think I'm a heretic, sinner, apostate, adulteress. I enjoy the labels. I LOVE the labels.

The prior bishop used to live 2 doors down and I know him. He handled me well. I know I've said that when i resigned, he said, "I've seen some of what you've been through and I won't try to talk you out of this."

The bishop before that was 2 doors down the opposite direction. And the one before that was in the house the current bishop lives in, but he moved.

I love being the naughty female who won't listen to my leaders and I don't treat them with any respect at all.

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: April 01, 2021 10:55PM

I think the idea is to hit the mormon church with relatively hard blows when the opportunity arises, as long as it doesn't deplete too much of your own energy in the process. This makes the church and its leaders only relevant when the effort to do so is personally low and the affects of your words most damaging to the cult and its leaders. Except for these unique opportunities, absolutely make them irrelevant and pretend they don't even exist.... most of the time.

I used to see people handing out anti-mormon literature outside of the gates to temple Square. At best you spend a whole day or more working, only to feed the perception that Satin is attacking the church because the church is true. The ex-mormon in that case, actually plays a role to support the belief of others in the church. The effort is high and the return is net zero or less than zero.

A few years ago, I stood up in front of a gathering of people in the chapel in a protestant church and acted out the parts of the pre-1990 Endowment ceremony where you make an oath to have your throat sliced open as a part of a secret blood oath rather than to reveal their secret handshakes. I explained that they actually refer to the throat and body slashing as "penalties" in the ceremony and as a part of the oath. I explained that the Mormon church stopped doing that in 1990, while stating my opinion that the un-healthy culture that led to that ceremony still remains in the mormon church today. I referred to it as a "God forsaken ceremony". It took me all of two to maybe three minutes to do this and it felt good. The shock in people's faces validated my own belief that that ceremony is creepy and not from God. I am pretty sure that my small ad-hoc presentation had some impact on several people who care. I told them to look up "mormon blood oaths" in Wikipedia if they didn't believe what I said. Some of them were community leaders. Some of them might have otherwise become mormon church members some day if not for what I told them, which is absolutely true.

I've never wasted time or effort attacking the mormon church as an activity or sustained effort or as a task. When the opportunity arises, you act strategically to give the church and its leaders the kind of attention that they really wouldn't want. Then it's back to whatever you were doing with little or no energy lost. Sustained efforts like this only at opportune times over long periods of time (like for the rest of your life a minute or two here and there - maybe weeks or months apart) will take a significant toll on the Mormon cult. It's about working smart and not working hard. The result is that the Mormon church becomes less relevant on this planet every day.

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Posted by: madeguy ( )
Date: April 02, 2021 04:05PM

Yes, I agree. There's no need to waste energy punching holes in a sinking ship. The church is stuck with their 'one true church' story. Truth emerges with time, and those with made-up stories will have to change or die.

So, just sit back, have a glass of wine, watch the tide come in, and enjoy the show.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 02:11AM

Jeffrey’s boat has seen better days. Maybe I should follow the rats scurrying past.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 03, 2021 12:59AM

There's is nothing we can do,

Knowing me, knowing you, uh - huh

We just have to face it, this time we're through

Breaking up is never easy, I know

But I have to go,

knowing me, knowing you,

it's the best I can do

Plus even I can dance better than the church!

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