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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: May 06, 2021 08:32PM

https://www.amazon.com/Road-Reality-Complete-Guide-Universe/dp/0679776311/ref=nodl_

I just found out about this project that is way over my head, but probably not everybody’s here.

https://theportal.wiki/wiki/Graph,_Wall,_Tome

The knowledge of fundamental physics and the mathematics necessary to perform and understand it are known to few, maybe some tens of thousands of people at most, and commitment to reach those levels entails almost a decade of graduate and post-graduate study. Yet what if it was all much easier and much harder to understand? What if the necessary knowledge was finite and more rapidly attainable to a broader population than those select few? What if there was a way to identify and abstract the most basic physical structures, a list of all the tools to build and operate on those structures, and a user's guide to describe how to use those tools?
The Graph, Wall, Tome project demonstrates that these resources exist and already cover much of the necessary ground, but also that they are still flawed and need refinement. Edward Witten, perhaps the most intelligent living physicist, wrote a paragraph in 1987 (from his address at the International Congress of Mathematicians, Berkeley, August 1986) that linguistically encodes and abstracts the most basic structures underlying physics, such that their function can still be understood even if the particular underlying equation may change. This is the Graph. Jim Simons, billionaire physicist, commissioned the iconic Wall at State University of New York Stony Brook which has inscribed upon it the equations of what Witten says in addition to some of history's most important mathematical and physical results. This is the Wall. Sir Roger Penrose, Nobel laureate and intellectual descendant of Albert Einstein’s school of geometric physics, wrote a book titled The Road to Reality, which describes and summarizes how to use the mathematics and physics contained within the Wall and the Graph. This is the Tome.

Already in these objects together is enough information to begin a serious study of physics at its most fundamental level and comprehend the deep connections between mathematics and physics. Yet, almost no one knows or seeks them. Further still, as recently as the 1950s we were confused about the structure of the universe: we didn't know the world is left-right asymmetric, as discovered by Madame Wu, and we didn't know the Aharonov-Bohm effect, which demonstrated that the electromagnetic field is less important than the electromagnetic potential. In the mid-1970s as well, Jim Simons and C.N. Yang showed that particle theory is completely geometric. Both of these developments are little known among the public. That the Graph, the Wall, and the Tome and these recent foundational developments are unknown is evidence that something is off in how we communicate science and hand down our knowledge.

The aims of Graph, Wall, Tome lie in an extremely focused presentation of its core elements, improving and expanding upon the originals where necessary, to chart the path to learning fundamental physics for as many willing people as can be reached.

Beyond Graph, Wall, Tome is the Search, the search for a theory of everything. Ventures that may be considered part of the search are String Theory, Loop Quantum Gravity, Garrett Lisi's E8, and Eric Weinstein's Geometric Unity. Graph, Wall, Tome can serve as a road to participate in the Search, though it should not be confused for the Search, and the Search should not be confused for it.“

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 06, 2021 08:42PM

Are you kidding?

Just get the app.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 12:56AM

Fine if that’s your thing, but you don’t need an understanding of Calculus and the equations of precession to ride a bicycle, or a PhD in biology to make a baby. You don’t need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows.

I gave up on Road to Reality pretty quickly, which is just as well since Penrose is reluctant to enter woo land. Even if you understood the math, where would it get you? The smartest guys on the Manhattan Project still built the atomic bomb. How dumb is that?

I agree with Donald Hoffman. Not only is scientific language pretty bad at describing reality, we humans aren’t even equipped to operate in reality. All of our notions of reality are geared toward survival and reproductive success. That’s why you can’t talk a TBM down from Mormonism. Is that a bad thing?

The language of religion may be closer to describing actual reality. Penrose’s repeating Big Bang theory is pretty ancient in Indian thought. You might as well skip the math and meditate. That’s where the Mormons have it right. Religion is something to be experienced. But of course the devil is in the details.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 01:30AM

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You might as well skip the math and
> meditate. That’s where the Mormons have it
> right.

Except Mormons would never encourage meditation since the moment a believer begins to look inside, s/he ceases to view the hierarchy as essential to spirituality.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 03:18AM

Exactly. Anyone who looks like they might lapse into meditation in the temple celestial room gets the bum rush out of there. They freak out.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 12:26PM

I’m not a mathematician, nor will I ever come close to understanding what Penrose is talking about half the time, but there’s something about “Road to Reality” that intrigues me.
I think it is the idea that it is possible to articulate a tenable existential foothold, or a ‘Theory of Everything’ that can fit on a single page, or in this case, a graph on a wall, backed up by a tone, which inspires a continued search for the real cause.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 12:20PM

I just realized why these science posts sometimes get me going.

Just after starting at BYU, I decided to get a Manufacturing Engineering degree. I'm a very spatial thinker, problem solver, and like hands on work. One day I was talking to my TBM dad on the phone and told him I had decided on my major and was enjoying the program.

He paused and then said, "don't be afraid to look into physics". Not the first time he said this.

I said, "I'm not afraid of physics. I'm not interested in physics. I'm interested in manufacturing and engineering. Why are you always pushing physics on me? Why can't you be happy I found something I like and want to do"?

He backed off and never mentioned it again.

His only brother had a PhD in physics. Dad had a BS in Industrial Management. His mother used to ask him why he wasn't a PhD like his brother. He was trying to fix his perceived failure via me studying physics.

So when Scat continually post links to science that he finds fascinating, I'm left with the same feeling....Not because I don't like Scat, but because I'm not interested in it, If I was I'd study and read about it. This isn't a place for science articles, it for recovery from religion. Why can he accept that not everyone see's his vision and just drop it and leave it at that? Can't we just talk about something else?

If this BB was intended for science and physics discussions, I would have quickly realized this was not the BB for me and left. Since its not intended for science and physics discussions, I don't get why a person would continually stay and push those subjects here.

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 12:34PM

scat once was mormon ~



now scat is a scientist ~



what will scat be next ? ~

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 12:41PM

Like Einstein famously said,”I want to know the mind of God. The rest is just details.”

I want to hear the music of the spheres,
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who – in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ – cannot hear the music of the spheres.”

I want to experience mystery and pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe,
“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed.“

It’s not just physics that interests me, it is geometry and biology. I am fascinated by the origins of life and I think that story is told by our DNA and it’s the most fascinating story ever told.

If you are not interested in that story, feel free to not click on topics that interest me and others. And feel even more free to not detract from intelligent conversations.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 01:20PM

You see, the thing is, I'm already busy listening to the music of the spheres, wondering in awe about science and art. You're busy finding and posting links that MOST people here are not interested in.....which is very distracting when I'm listening to the spheres and wondering about things.

You posting what other "intelligent" people think does not necessarily equate to having an intelligent conversation.

I can say the same to you....please feel free not to post links to things that I and others are not interested in.

As EOD asked the other day...OK, so what? What are we to do with this profound science you keep bringing to us? What use is it to us? What's interesting to one may not be useful to another. Your focus is purely on your interest, not if its useful or interesting to others, and many here have told you it isn't.

I like it when you just join in a post with your thoughts or opinions like most people do here. Its the science soap box you insist on bringing here that is so tiring and useless.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 01:50PM

The Cat believes that people are judged by the clothes they wear, the cars they drive, and the 'thoughts' they repeat. This is very primitive, as is the manner in which he responds when we get under his skin.

I don't recall who used the imagery created in my mind by likening The Cat's offerings to a real cat who brings you dead mice and lizards as offerings, and it's not even your cat!  I know I'm guilty of that, but I'm a bit more subtle.  

The answers that arise to the question, "Why is The Cat here?" are generally not complimentary.

And you're right about reading a post and then seeing The Cat was the author and wondering, why can't he just be normal like that all the time?

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 02:01PM

The dead mouse on the porch metaphor was from me :) My neighbors cat continues to bring them to us even though we are not interested in them.....as does the Scatmandoo!

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 04:09PM

The internet is full of uninteresting snarky haters, like you and EOD.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 04:28PM

Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "snarky hater." As I wrote the other day, you are not in danger of excessive nuance.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 04:29PM

And lucky you! You found us!

I'm still pledging in the geriatric mean girls club, but when I gain full membership? Watch out!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 04:40PM

You already have honorary membership by dint of your sterling character, Biff. All it will take to transform that into regular membership, with the panoply of concomitant rights and privileges, is a small shipping and handling fee for your certificate and complimentary shopping bag.

EOD will be happy to process your bank account details, social security number, etc. Welcome to MGC, where all the girls are MaGiC!

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 04:51PM

What? No swatting ceremony? Thank you mam may I have another?

Fine.

Bank Info: Kirtland Safety Society, Kirtland, OH

SS: 666-69-7742

Charge what ever you want for shipping, and handling sounds terribly interesting. Just make sure you send my lapel pin!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 04:57PM

Don't overlook the shopping bag. You'll put all those NPR donors to shame next time you visit your local Whole Foods Market.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 05:02PM

Damn! Almost missed that. Thanks. I'll use it to carry all the links to fascinating articles on physics and other sciences. Might even have enough room for a quark, a string, and maybe even a water bear!

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 05:03PM

See? Scats posts are full of intelligent conversation!

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 06:46PM

Feel free to not click on my posts, much less make stupid comments. I don’t know what compels you to do so. It’s not like anybody’s got a gun to your head is it?

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Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 05:20PM

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So when Scat continually post links to science
> that he finds fascinating, I'm left with the same
> feeling....Not because I don't like Scat, but
> because I'm not interested in it, If I was I'd
> study and read about it. This isn't a place for
> science articles, it for recovery from religion.
> Why can he accept that not everyone see's his
> vision and just drop it and leave it at that?
> Can't we just talk about something else?
>
> If this BB was intended for science and physics
> discussions, I would have quickly realized this
> was not the BB for me and left. Since its not
> intended for science and physics discussions, I
> don't get why a person would continually stay and
> push those subjects here.


Ditto for most of the political discussions here not directly relating to Mormonism

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Posted by: G. Salviati ( )
Date: May 07, 2021 01:56PM

I have read Penrose's book "The Road to Reality" three times, cover to cover, and selected chapters and excerpts many more times on a regular basis since the book came out. I have also read Penrose's other books multiple times. In addition, I have read countless other works on various subject matters covered by Penrose's RTR in order to acquire a different perspective or presentation; all with various levels of technical detail.

I am not a mathematician or a physicist, and certainly do not claim to understand *all* of RTR. Nonetheless, here are my general observations:

1. There is no shortcut to theoretical physics. Anyone suggesting otherwise (like in the OP) is engaged in delusional. wishful thinking. It takes a lot of effort!

2. The number of people who "know this stuff" in full detail; with all its theoretical and philosophical implications is small indeed; probably less than 1000. Many others are just playing with equations. (Note: Having a PhD in physics is just the beginning of such understanding. Most such PhDs don't have a clue about the intricacies of Quantum Field Theory in its many forms. I know because I have talked to them!

3. Any populist treatise--regardless of the credentials of the author--that fails to address mathematics at some level--both the mathematics of physics generally and the mathematics of a particular theory, will be a distorted and severely limited account, with a correspondingly limited value in understanding. (But not of no value.) There are at least two reasons for this: First, physical theories are presented primarily in mathematical terms; and (2) Knowing the math allows one to see the breakdown between mathematical reasoning and understanding, on the one hand, and a conceptual understanding, on the other hand; both of which are necessary for an understanding of physics--whether one is a physicist or a layperson.

4. None of the TOE theories--including those covered in The Road to Reality--address mind and consciousness. Yet, Penrose rightly (and famously) noted:

"It seems to me that there is a fundamental problem with the idea that mentality arises out of physicality--this is something which philosophers worry about for very good reasons. The things we talk about in physics are matter, physical things, massive objects, particles, space, time, energy and so on. How could our feelings, our perception of redness, or of happiness have anything to do with physics? I regard that as a mystery." (Penrose, The Shadow of the Mind (1994), p. 94)

"A scientific world-view which does not profoundly come to terms with the problem of conscious minds can have no serious pretensions of completeness. Consciousness is part of our universe, so any physical theory which makes no proper place for it falls fundamentally short of providing a genuine description of the world. I would maintain that there is yet no physical, biological, or computational theory that comes very close to explaining our consciousness and consequent intelligence; but that should not deter us from striving to search for one." (Penrose, The Shadow of the Mind (1994), p. 8)

What this tells you is that a TOE (Theory of Everything) or a GUT (Grand Unified Theory) if ever "discovered" in theoretical physics, will NOT be what it claims to be--something essential will be left out!

5. Theoretical physicists--again, however credentialed--invariably lack understanding of some tangential subject matter--usually philosophy, fundamental logic, biology or psychology--that undermines a full understanding of the implications of their favored theory. (Penrose included! As he would admit.)

In short, there is no "lazy man's way" to understanding anything, especially science! (That is why every *claim* you read about *anything* even remotely controversial should be taken with a rounded teaspoon of salt. (Except, of course, my comments and claims here, which are totally reliable!)

By the way, the first chapter of Penrose's book, "The Roots of Science" is very accessible, and is of itself worth the price of the book! For the average reader it starts to get a bit hairy from there.

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