...and keep wearing your mask — even if you've already been vaccinated.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/

The delta variant of the coronavirus appears to cause more severe illness than earlier variants and spreads as easily as chickenpox, according to an internal federal health document that argues officials must “acknowledge the war has changed.”

The document is an internal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention slide presentation, shared within the CDC and obtained by The Washington Post. It captures the struggle of the nation’s top public health agency to persuade the public to embrace vaccination and prevention measures, including mask-wearing, as cases surge across the United States and new research suggests vaccinated people can spread the virus.

The document strikes an urgent note, revealing the agency knows it must revamp its public messaging to emphasize vaccination as the best defense against a variant so contagious that it acts almost like a different novel virus, leaping from target to target more swiftly than Ebola or the common cold.

It cites a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.

“I finished reading it significantly more concerned than when I began,” Robert Wachter, chairman of the Department of Medicine at the University of California at San Francisco, wrote in an email.

CDC scientists were so alarmed by the new research that the agency earlier this week significantly changed guidance for vaccinated people even before making new data public.

The data and studies cited in the document played a key role in revamped recommendations that call for everyone — vaccinated or not — to wear masks indoors in public settings in certain circumstances, a federal health official said. That official told The Post that the data will be published in full on Friday. CDC Director Rochelle Walensky privately briefed members of Congress on Thursday, drawing on much of the material in the document.

One of the slides states that there is a higher risk among older age groups for hospitalization and death relative to younger people, regardless of vaccination status. Another estimates that there are 35,000 symptomatic infections per week among 162 million vaccinated Americans.

The document outlines “communication challenges” fueled by cases in vaccinated people, including concerns from local health departments about whether coronavirus vaccines remain effective and a “public convinced vaccines no longer work/booster doses needed.”

The presentation highlights the daunting task the CDC faces. It must continue to emphasize the proven efficacy of the vaccines at preventing severe illness and death while acknowledging milder breakthrough infections may not be so rare after all, and that vaccinated individuals are transmitting the virus. The agency must move the goal posts of success in full public view.

“Although it’s rare, we believe that at an individual level, vaccinated people may spread the virus, which is why we updated our recommendation,” according to the federal health official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. “Waiting even days to publish the data could result in needless suffering and as public health professionals we cannot accept that.”

The presentation came two days after Walensky announced the reversal in guidance on masking among people who are vaccinated. On May 13, people were told they no longer needed to wear masks indoors or outdoors if they had been vaccinated. The new guidance reflects a strategic retreat in the face of the delta variant. Even people who are vaccinated should wear masks indoors in communities with substantial viral spread or when in the presence of people who are particularly vulnerable to infection and illness, the CDC said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2021 11:15PM by anybody.

Lots of anti vax/anti mask idiots up here...some who still call Covid a hoax and the vaccines experimental drugs. I think they are beyond help...and I have quit caring about them.

Thank you for this crucial safety information.

Here in BC we're still at masks strongly recommended indoors status, even if vaccinated, and no community team sports, even outdoors.

If they say boosters are recommended I'm there. I want to be able to continue going out and about and seeing family.

I notice a very small percentage of people shopping indoors without masks. I went to an outdoor country market last weekend where signs read "masks strongly encouraged". I saw quite a few of the younger parents & their kids without masks. Disappointing.

Stay safe everyone. Check out the science.

Was in Boise today and very few people were wearing masks including myself. Perhaps it is time to reconsider. I note that in the UK there has been a levelling off of problems with the new variant which is attributed to the high vaccination rate. This is probably true in other high vaccination countries demonstrating the value of vaccinations.

I just went to the first performance at Salt Lake Acting Company since Mar 11, 2020. They were beyond excited to be back on stage!

The house was about a third to half full. Not sure if people stayed away, or there was distanced seating, or what.

They required proof of vaccination at the door, double check when entering the seating area, and then checked handstamps again after people were seated. Nobody was getting in there without verified vaccination!! They also checked photo ID to verify the vaccination card belonged to the person presenting it.

About a third of the audience wore masks. I was surprised that many people were wearing masks. I think people are starting to get nervous about Delta.

And BTW, SLAC turns 50 this year. One of the best things in the SL Valley. :)

It's a marketing problem. If Delta was called the Andromeda Strain, people might take it more seriously.

If it's true that there's no such thing as bad publicity, Delta Airlines must be absolutely loving this!

Hahah ha. Good one.

Delta Air Lines, in official communications with employees, the press, and the public, refers to it by its medical designation; B.1.617.2. variant.74% of Delta flight attendants and gate agents in SLC are fully vaccinated. (FYI. It's Delta Air Lines. The only US carrier to make that distinction)

if understand how vaccines work and the immune system:

Let's say have to sit for a very tough biochemistry examination.

-Vaccinateds have gotten a copy of the examination and all correct answers week before exam;
-Unvaccinateds are sitting for examination cold.

It's like this -- except the price of failure is your life.

We had 31 new hospigalizations for covid yesterday in our county (100K population)

30 of them had not been vaccinated.

I keep thinking that this may be the way that Nature is trying to weed out human stupidity. I hope every unvaccinated moron dies a slow agonizing death without infecting anyone else.

nli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I hope every unvaccinated moron dies a slow
> agonizing death without infecting anyone else.

That's really uncalled for. People aren't refusing masks and vaccines out of personal stupidity. They are being led to these views by cynical parties who push conspiracy theories because they believe that it will advance their own agendas.

The evil jerks who knowingly push conspiracy theories are the ones who should die slow, agonizing deaths.

CZ

Concrete Zipper Wrote:
----------------------------------------------------
>
> That's really uncalled for. People aren't refusing
> masks and vaccines out of personal stupidity. They
> are being led to these views by cynical parties
> who push conspiracy theories because they believe
> that it will advance their own agendas.
>
> The evil jerks who knowingly push conspiracy
> theories are the ones who should die slow,
> agonizing deaths.
>
> CZ

Isn't it a bit presumptive to assume that everyone who doesn't agree with the official narrative is being "led to these views by cynical parties who push conspiracy theories". Why can't we think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions which do not agree with the official narrative for reasons that others are dismissing here because of their own conspiracy theory beliefs? The word "Experimental" means that the drug has not completed trials. That's all I need to hear. Is it safe? Maybe or maybe not. We can't be sure. Have we ever used mRNA as a mass body-wide distribution system for a vaccination before? Answer: No. What are my odds of dieing if I am not vaccinated? Answer: Not very high. Just because 'everyone else' is doing something does not mean that it is the right thing to do. This whole cult, group-think thing with respect to vaccinations here on RFM seems odd to me. Why not respect all sides rather than to dismiss as conspiracies, the medical decisions of others who handle their medical choices differently? It's almost like classic mormonism where everyone obeys the demands of authority from the leaders and then resents the hell out of others who do not exercise the same level of obedience. If what you have been told about the vaccinations is true, then unvaccinated people pose no medical threat to you if you have been vaccinated.

From what I read in the article, vaccinated people are infecting others with Covid-19.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2021 06:13PM by azsteve.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't it a bit presumptive to assume that everyone
> who doesn't agree with the official narrative is
> being "led to these views by cynical parties who
> push conspiracy theories". Why can't we think for
> ourselves and come to our own conclusions which do
> not agree with the official narrative for reasons
> that others are dismissing here because of their
> own conspiracy theory beliefs? The word
> "Experimental" means that the drug has not
> completed trials. That's all I need to hear. Is it
> safe? Maybe or maybe not. We can't e sure. Have
> we ever used mRNA as a mass body-wide distribution
> system for a vaccination before? Answer: No. What
> are my odds of dieing if I am not vaccinated?
> Answer: Not very high. Just because 'everyone
> else' is doing something does not mean that it is
> the right thing to do. This whole cult,
> group-think thing with respect to vaccinations
> here on RFM seems odd to me. Why not respect all
> sides rather than to dismiss as conspiracies, the
> medical decisions of others who handle their
> medical choices differently? It's almost like
> classic mormonism where everyone obeys the demands
> of authority from the leaders and then resents the
> hell out of others who do not exercise the same
> level of obedience. If what you have been told
> about the vaccinations is true, then unvaccinated
> people pose no medical threat to you if you have
> been vaccinated.
==================================

Compadre,
yer confirming CZ's point.

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> azsteve Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Isn't it a bit presumptive to assume that
> everyone
> > who doesn't agree with the official narrative
> is
> > being "led to these views by cynical parties
> who
> > push conspiracy theories". Why can't we think
> for
> > ourselves and come to our own conclusions which
> do
> > not agree with the official narrative for
> reasons
> > that others are dismissing here because of
> their
> > own conspiracy theory beliefs? The word
> > "Experimental" means that the drug has not
> > completed trials. That's all I need to hear. Is
> it
> > safe? Maybe or maybe not. We can't e sure.
> Have
> > we ever used mRNA as a mass body-wide
> distribution
> > system for a vaccination before? Answer: No.
> What
> > are my odds of dieing if I am not vaccinated?
> > Answer: Not very high. Just because 'everyone
> > else' is doing something does not mean that it
> is
> > the right thing to do. This whole cult,
> > group-think thing with respect to vaccinations
> > here on RFM seems odd to me. Why not respect
> all
> > sides rather than to dismiss as conspiracies,
> the
> > medical decisions of others who handle their
> > medical choices differently? It's almost like
> > classic mormonism where everyone obeys the
> demands
> > of authority from the leaders and then resents
> the
> > hell out of others who do not exercise the same
> > level of obedience. If what you have been told
> > about the vaccinations is true, then
> unvaccinated
> > people pose no medical threat to you if you
> have
> > been vaccinated.
> ==================================
>
> Compadre,
> yer confirming CZ's point.

Not exactly. When you're a Mormon, all trains of thought prove that the church is true. You can't really help those kinds of people. They're going to believe what they want to believe, no matter what. To top it off, they're going to dismiss outright, anything that does not support the official narrative that supports that the church is true. This kind of circular thinking on any topic hardly confirms CZ's point.

At the crux of the issue is whether or not a healthy person should take an untested drug vs accepting a two-percent (or less) risk of dieing. That issue is at least valid, whether or not anyone chooses to agree.

because every single medication is a "test" on the individual.
Who knows how the individual will react to a given therapeutic.
Even approved therapeutics.

Is a guarantee the acceptable level of proof?
Then that will forever elude.

We are today seeing a live epidemiological study, real-time, as to the effectiveness (and safety) of these vaccines.


It may of course be an orchestrated conspiracy.
Who knows.

Maybe 613,000 Americans did not actually die.
And it is the myth of a conspiratorial press.

I mean, it is possible.

Maybe.

What concerns me is when did we start to implicitly believe the press and politicians about anything?

I'm very much concerned when it looks like a concerted effort to make people believe in something. I'm not saying we don't have a problem with a new disease. We might. I've had covid as did my family last year. We all had very different experiences with it. From mild to alarming.

If there is something wrong with the medications we're being sold on, how do we correct it? Reading Doctor Robert Malone's statements about the mRNA technology he invented. It sounds like the science isn't settled and he has reservations.

I would think of all people, he's one we should also listen to when he speaks.

InJustice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe.
>
> What concerns me is when did we start to
> implicitly believe the press and politicians about
> anything?
>
> I'm very much concerned when it looks like a
> concerted effort to make people believe in
> something. I'm not saying we don't have a problem
> with a new disease. We might. I've had covid as
> did my family last year. We all had very
> different experiences with it. From mild to
> alarming.
>
> If there is something wrong with the medications
> we're being sold on, how do we correct it?
> Reading Doctor Robert Malone's statements about
> the mRNA technology he invented. It sounds like
> the science isn't settled and he has
> reservations.
>
> I would think of all people, he's one we should
> also listen to when he speaks.
=================================

Just don't take the vaccine!
I don't see the problem.

Are you confusing a "concerted effort to make people believe in something" with a concerted effort to save lives? Wouldn't saving lives justify a concerted effort?

Isn't that, by far, the simplest explanation? Are the millions of dead people enough, or do you really need conspiracy theories to explain the "concerted effort"?

I was being inappropriately facetious about conspiracies so apologize and please don't ban me butt.
There are no conspiracies 'cause conspiracy types just aren't bright enough to actually pull it off.

(Although must confess -- got a little tummy-tickle of humor while writing the nonsense :-))

azsteve, I read the now deleted post on another thread where you not only spouted the most prevalent conspiracy theories, but added your own hyperbolic twist to them. Now here you claim to be thinking for yourself? That you only have concerns over how new the vaccines are? You're prevaricating.

You were called stupid in that thread, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I've read plenty of posts by you that demonstrate that you possess a very functional brain.

What I think you are is stubborn. And you're stubbornly grasping on to any concept that supports your biases.

But here's the important part: Stupidity absolves some culpability; stubbornness does not.

How many people have you knowingly or unknowingly infected? How many will they infect? How long down that chain will it go until someone dies? How many people have you influenced with the absolutely demonstrably fallacious trash that you spouted in the other thread? How many of those people will get sick because they listened to you?

If you were stupid, your actions could be excused and your culpability diminished. But you're not. And you're culpable. You're culpable for the harm done to anyone infected by you. You're culpable in any potential deaths. Because the correct information on the vaccines is readily available, and you're smart enough to understand it. It's even heavily discussed on this board. You're culpable for all the potential harm rippling out in waves from you, because you're just too fucking stubborn to let go of your selfish bias.

As a fellow Arizonan who has watched in dismay as vaccination rates have all but stalled at around 50% and infection rates have quadrupled; as a person who has had a family member die from this disease, I have this to say to you: Stop your stubborn, immoral, tremendously hurtful behavior. Stop inflicting harm on the people around you with your misinformation campaign, because it doesn't stop there. What you're doing is like shooting a bullet into the air. You don't know where it's going to land or who it might hurt, but if you do it enough you're going to kill someone. You may have done so already. Stop it.

Oh, it's even better than that. Steve put up a post (quickly taken down by the mods) where he suggested throwing Covid parties for children.

Steve's obstinacy at times devolves into sociopathy. He can't even learn from his own mistakes.

Well, in a few weeks, Utah will throw covid parties for kids. It's called School and our legislature passed a special law last summer that school districts can't order mask mandates. "Pro-Life" huh?

Thanks for the information. We need all we can get. This is a very complicated subject.

Vaccine works - because just flight-tested it.

Picked up probable Delta.

Unmasked (usually don an FDA-EUA KN-95) but reasoned high-vaccine low-transmission area;
very quick grab-and-go mission; large space/well-ventilated/low people-density grocery; walk-fast-and-don't-loiter-kinda-man.
Reason in retrospect must have zipped through a viral plume.

Symptoms were exactly like a repeat of that second inoculation -
- except additional lost sense of smell, bit sore throat, 'runny nose' and "balloon head" (as in, that is how it felt) -- and oddly enough a tinge of akathisia -- but none of the other well-documented horrors.
Four days later back to 100%. Didn't even crack a fever.

Contrast this forgettable event to some of our unvaccinated compadres here who have really had a rough, rough go of it.

So yeah - it's really super-easy to catch this thing.
But the vaccines work.

Viral plume - eek. I'm going to be out & about today in crowded places, although outdoors. Sure hope people are masked up. Sometimes I wear 2 masks - it gives a tighter fit - but it can get stuffy. Especially as it's hot hot hot here & smoky from all the fires up country. But double benefit maybe, guarding against smoke inhalation too.

Thanks for the return & report. Sorry you caught the thing but good to hear you fought it off, big thanks to medical science.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2021 01:41PM by Nightingale.

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vaccine works - because just flight-tested it.
>
> Picked up probable Delta.
>
> Unmasked (usually don an FDA-EUA KN-95) but
> reasoned high-vaccine low-transmission area;
> very quick grab-and-go mission; large
> space/well-ventilated/low people-density grocery;
> walk-fast-and-don't-loiter-kinda-man.
> Reason in retrospect must have zipped through a
> viral plume.
>
> Symptoms were exactly like a repeat of that second
> inoculation -
> - except additional lost sense of smell, bit sore
> throat, 'runny nose' and "balloon head" (as in,
> that is how it felt) -- and oddly enough a tinge
> of akathisia -- but none of the other
> well-documented horrors.
> Four days later back to 100%. Didn't even crack a
> fever.
>
> Contrast this forgettable event to some of our
> unvaccinated compadres here who have really had a
> rough, rough go of it.
>
> So yeah - it's really super-easy to catch this
> thing.
> But the vaccines work.


So when (prior to Covid-19), was the last time that someone was vaccinated and had all kinds of symptoms as a result of the vaccination itself? Prior to Covid-19, the worst vaccination symptom that I ever heard of was perhaps, soreness in the muscle where the needle was inserted.

In my case it's unproven, however I ended up having over a decade of seizures and took medication to help control that.

Again it's not proven it was related to the vaccination, only that the seizures (among other health issues) began shortly after.

InJustice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my case it's unproven, however I ended up
> having over a decade of seizures and took
> medication to help control that.
>
> Again it's not proven it was related to the
> vaccination, only that the seizures (among other
> health issues) began shortly after.
===============================
Proven or not proven, that's bad straits in any regard.
No Joke. Seizures be tough.

Hope it is resolved, compadre, and ye be regaining health.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So when (prior to Covid-19), was the last time
> that someone was vaccinated and had all kinds of
> symptoms as a result of the vaccination itself?
> Prior to Covid-19, the worst vaccination symptom
> that I ever heard of was perhaps, soreness in the
> muscle where the needle was inserted.
===============================

That's not even in the trajectory of my account.
Not even in the same continent.

It does not follow rationally from the content.
No where related.

Now, if YOU are concerned about a horrid vaccine reaction that may (who knows) turn one into an attack-gerbil, that's fine,
-- but it's not related even remotely to this account, and it is
your concern.
Not mine.

Because I flight-tested the vaccine and even took it for a little ride through a pop-up thunderstorm.

Pretty smooth ride must say.

Yes, I'm vaccinated. As I've said before.

I still have masks. My boyfriend worked where they had to wear masks and they gave him pkgs every week of 20 masks and I have a few left pkgs. Since I so love my dentures, I don't mind wearing masks and I like people not knowing who I am so they don't stop to talk to me. Haven't been in any stores since this all came to light.

My boyfriend just got back from Canada visiting his daughter for 3 weeks. Haven't had a chance to talk to him much about what is going on up there. She lives on Cortes Island by Vancouver. He had to jump through hoops to get across to Canada, but he said coming back to the U.S. was no big deal at all.

I talked to a friend in London today (the U.K. has been one of the hardest-hit areas for Delta.) She feels that the media is sending mixed messages there about Covid precautions (or lack thereof.) IMO this is because the U.K. has a very high vaccination rate -- approximately 90% of adults have had at least one shot, and about 70% have both.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833

She also said that by her observation only about half of the riders on the London subway (the Tube) are wearing masks. It will be interesting to see how the U.K.'s high vaccination rate plays out.

Headline:

CDC study shows 74% of people infected in Massachusetts Covid outbreak were fully vaccinated

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc-study-shows-74percent-of-people-infected-in-massachusetts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html

Key points:

*About three-fourths of people infected in a Massachusetts Covid-19 outbreak were fully vaccinated, according to new data published Friday by the CDC.

*The new data, published in the U.S. agency's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, also found that fully vaccinated people who get infected carry as much of the virus in their nose as unvaccinated people.


Let’s hope that data showing that the vaccines at least ameliorate symptoms holds up.

And since the CEO of Pfizer reported and data out of Israel demonstrates a steady diminishing effect of the vaccine’s efficacy for amelioration of symptoms, let’s hope the planned for booster shots do the trick. Thirty odd billion dollars in profits so far should be enough to keep them going.


All told, no matter what governments (Alberta is going full Florida) or government agencies may say in the moment, the same precaution holds from day one:

Self-isolate as much as possible; if you must go out, wear a mask.

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Headline:
>
> CDC study shows 74% of people infected in
> Massachusetts Covid outbreak were fully
> vaccinated
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc-study-shows-74
> percent-of-people-infected-in-massachusetts-covid-
> outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html
>
> Key points:
>
> *About three-fourths of people infected in a
> Massachusetts Covid-19 outbreak were fully
> vaccinated, according to new data published Friday
> by the CDC.
>
> *The new data, published in the U.S. agency's
> Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, also found
> that fully vaccinated people who get infected
> carry as much of the virus in their nose as
> unvaccinated people.
>
>
> Let’s hope that data showing that the vaccines
> at least ameliorate symptoms holds up.
>
> And since the CEO of Pfizer reported and data out
> of Israel demonstrates a steady diminishing effect
> of the vaccine’s efficacy for amelioration of
> symptoms, let’s hope the planned for booster
> shots do the trick. Thirty odd billion dollars in
> profits so far should be enough to keep them
> going.
>
>
> All told, no matter what governments (Alberta is
> going full Florida) or government agencies may say
> in the moment, the same precaution holds from day
> one:
>
> Self-isolate as much as possible; if you must go
> out, wear a mask.

One thing that needs to be mentioned about the Massachusetts outbreak was that in over 800 cases, only seven people required hospitalization, and there were no deaths. The vaccines may not be preventing infection with the Delta variant, but they are still showing remarkable effectiveness at preventing severe infections and death.

Bottom line, GET VACCINATED!!!!

It should be noted. Not everyone can get the experimental vaccine safely.

Personally, I've had issues just taking the flu shot. Also, as a kid, 18 months - 2 years old I started having serious health issues after a series of vaccination shots. It's never been proven they had anything to do with it. The timing is very interesting.

I hope it works for others. I really do. All medications have side effects. One of the reasons physicians ask questions when determining treatment to reduce the possibility of a reaction.

azsteve today:

“I think that the Covid-19 fear-mongering here on this board can be un-necessary and excessive. Just look at the subject line here. I just don't appreciate anyone pontificating to whip-up all of the extra fear-porn here over a disease that is slightly worse than the annual flu in most cases. I caught Covid-19 a few weeks ago and am nearly over it now. During the worst of it, I didn't regret not getting vaccinated ahead of time. I should have natural immunities to it now. Life goes on.”


COVID-19 is the only pandemic most of us here have experienced in our lifetime. It’s a major worldwide issue and has killed millions of people. Naturally, there’s a bit of interest in it. The annual flu kills many worldwide and you state that COVID is "slightly worse” than that. So to many that’s a big deal. Naturally, many want to discuss it. It’s regrettable that you refer to our interest and concern as being “fear-porn”.

We also see comparisons between the pandemic and some of our experiences with religion and religious leaders. Also topical for RfM.


I mentioned in a previous post earlier today, Steve, that to date it’s thought that having had COVID-19 *may* confer relative immunity for perhaps up to 8 months. Your “natural immunities” may or may not exist and no medical expert to date that I know of has said the immunity is 100%. Even people who have had COVID and are presumed to have a fairly high level of immunity (for a period of time) are contracting COVID for a second time. This is part of the reason the MDs are recommending that even if you’ve had COVID you should still get vaccinated. Especially in light of the new prevalence of the Delta variant, which is more easily spread and can cause serious illness.


Life goes on, you say. For you, Steve, fortunately. Not for the estimated 4.2M people worldwide who have died. Many would have given anything to have access to a vaccine but didn’t get the chance.


Speaking of COVID being slightly worse than the flu, here’s how things went with you Steve when you caught the virus:

azsteve June 20-24:

“If you've ever walked on a balance beam, holding your arms out horizontal to balance your steps, that's what I am having to do just to walk around at all now. Better yet, as possible I am staying close to walls and dressers, either holding on or ready at a moments notice to grab ahold. With no notice, the world just turns sideways or completely upside down. When that happens, it feels just like being shoved to one side or another unexpectedly. If I close my eyes right away when that happens, I can minimize the likelihood of throwing up immediately from an instant nausia response (probably motion sickness) that also results. A few days ago (at its worst), I could lay flat on my back and it felt like I was spinning 360 degrees, head to toe.”


“I am in no condition to go in to the kitchen and prepare a meal. Just sitting up to eat is a major ordeal now. This thing really sucks all of the energy out of you harder than anything I have ever experienced before. I've had to crouch down to the floor a few times on the way to the bathroom, just to stay concious and to prevent a fall when everything started blacking-out. I have read that many people with Covid-19 can retain a strong residual fatigue that can take months to get over with. Based on how I feel now, I can believe that.”


“One of the worst parts of this Covid-19 turned out to be this headache. Unlike most headaches that we're familiar with, this is a completely different thing. It got so bad that I couldn't stand it and was thinking of going to the hospital because I couldn't think straight or stand the pain. I couldn't be sure I was making good decisions. Most headaches just hurt. But a Covid-19 headache is a result of inflammation (swelling) in the brain. It skews everything, causing weird emotional states and an inability to think clearly, in addition to the extreme pain. It's almost similar to a fever but worse, even after the fever is gone. When researching this headache, I found an article that said that it can last for months after the initial disease passes. In the meantime, you're quite disabled and in a lot of on-going pain 24/7. The article said that some Doctors have started giving an MRI to assess any permanent damage, and then prescribing steroids and Gabapenten long-term to get the person some relief.”


“For me, by the time this headache reached this point, the fever was gone and my body temperature had dropped to 96 degrees. I had started having hypothermia and was spending most of the time in a tub of hot water (day and night) as the only means of staying warm enough, while suffering that headache.”

---

I don’t want to dive in to it all too deeply again but do want to state that you were fortunate, Steve. Fortunate in that your body could fight the virus (hence you must not suffer from any immunocompromising conditions which can be a death sentence if the person contracts COVID). Fortunate in that you had a partner who could stay with you and ensure your safety amidst the dizziness, the pain, the discomfort. Fortunate that she could ensure you received nourishment, necessary to maximize recovery. Many people live alone and would be up S*** Creek if they had to cope without help (which is not immediately forthcoming in many cases).


If what you describe is considered by you to be mild and COVID is still no big deal to you, can you spare a thought or a spark of imagination to think of how that is not the case for the more vulnerable among us, the elderly, the sick, the immunocompromised, cancer patients, those living alone, those without access to even over-the-counter medications and certainly not to an MD at the end of a phone line or on call should things worsen. Affording a hospital stay would be a dream they couldn’t imagine. If **you** were thinking of the bill, you who has employment, an MD, a partner and resources, how much anxiety do you think COVID is causing to those without such resources?


Please don’t use your experience to minimize COVID-19 any further than you already did before your own bout with it. It didn’t sound like you were enjoying it much or that it was “only slightly worse than flu”. It sounded bloody awful. So yes, people are scared to contract it. Normal folks can understand that. A little healthy fear never hurt anybody. Unreasonable bombast just might. But here you are, while still not quite recovered, misstating facts and naysaying the experts again. I never said we should revere someone just because they’re a chemist or a doctor or researcher. But surely it’s worth considering their expertise, especially compared to one’s own, when weighing up the advantages and disadvantages of a certain course of action.


Mitch McConnell, US Congress, advocates taking the vaccine. It is said that he is a fan of vaccines because of his own experience as a youth with polio. There was a time in recent human history when children died of polio or were permanently disabled by it. Then the polio vaccine was developed and put an end to that scourge. I hope a lot of people listen to McConnell’s experience and advice who might not otherwise consider getting the COVID vaccine. I get that it can be scary to hear that it’s a new vaccine for a new virus. I was nervous about it myself. But listening to advice from science and medicine experts the vaccine was the logical way to proceed I decided. I was thrilled when my turn came up and grateful for all the quick work. The speed of its development doesn’t make it “experimental” or more risky. The same protocols were followed as with any other trial of medication or treatment. There’s a lot of information out there that would explain all the details. Think of all the vaccinations we get now in our society, the childhood ones, young adult ones, the annual flu ones, the shingles vaccine, etc. The same knowledge, principles and procedures that went into developing those were utilized to develop the COVID vaccine, including knowledge of the human body and how the immune system functions, how the virus works, etc.


azsteve today:

“The word "Experimental" means that the drug has not completed trials. That's all I need to hear.”

Perhaps dagny, microbiologist, or someone could answer the first part. As for you saying “that’s all I need to hear” – that’s unfortunate. Because there are a few other principles to keep in mind that could help a person to be more informed.


Steve:

“This whole cult, group-think thing with respect to vaccinations here on RFM seems odd to me. Why not respect all sides rather than to dismiss as conspiracies, the medical decisions of others who handle their medical choices differently? If what you have been told about the vaccinations is true, then unvaccinated people pose no medical threat to you if you have been vaccinated.”

It's not true to say that unvaccinated people pose no risk to others. All people, vaccinated and unvaccinated, can carry the virus and infect others with whom they come into contact.


When we were all busy getting some or all of the MMR, DPT and rubella shots, polio vaccine, smallpox innoculation, pneumococcal and HPV vaccines, shingles vaccine and annual flu shots how many of us asked for a science conference to explain each and every one to us and an overview of the development process? Not many for sure. Well, has the scientific method changed (except for the better/more informed)? Have physicians suddenly become Mr./Ms. Hydes? Is there suddenly only one political party we can trust and the others are trying to kill us all (with what possible benefit to themselves once we’re no more)?


Steve: “From what I read in the article, vaccinated people are infecting others with Covid-19.


From CDC site July 28, 2021:

“Infections happen in only a small proportion of people who are fully vaccinated, even with the Delta variant. However, preliminary evidence suggests that fully vaccinated people who do become infected with the Delta variant can spread the virus to others. To reduce their risk of becoming infected with the Delta variant and potentially spreading it to others: CDC recommends that fully vaccinated people [implement all measures previously recommended]…”


I’ve lost track of which article you are referring to Steve. But it sounds like maybe you got that point jumbled. You said “…fully vaccinated people are infecting others with Covid-19”.

I believe this statement from the CDC means that fully vaccinated people can spread the **Delta variant** to unvaccinated people (which the CDC acknowledges). I’ve been hearing for a considerable time from TV and radio newscasts that it is known that both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can carry the Delta variant, can contract it, and/or can spread it to others. The point about one’s vaccine status is that the vaccinated person may not contract the Delta variant but can pass it on to unvaccinated people, who will likely then contract it due to Delta being far more contagious even than COVID-19 is. But even if the vaccinated person contracts COVID or the Delta variant they are likely to get only a mild case due to the protective effects of the vaccine.


The big part of all this that some segment of the population seems to overlook is that we can be a danger to others by passing along the virus to them. Surely none of us would want to be that carrier if there was a way to avoid it.


Steve, today: “Just because 'everyone else' is doing something does not mean that it is the right thing to do. This whole cult, group-think thing with respect to vaccinations here on RFM seems odd to me.”

I actually don’t know what to say…


Steve, As “Dr. No” says, you can just not take the vaccine. But whether you do or not, please take an opportunity to learn more about its development and efficacy. Choose to be well informed. Don’t just hear one word (“experimental”) out of context, likely, and make a snap judgement about something so crucial to so many in this world. Make your own choice for yourself - hopefully, a well-informed one. I hope, though, that more and more people will choose what has been proven to be an effective vaccine. They don’t all have an SO who can keep them safe and nourished while their otherwise healthy body fights off a deadly virus.

I’m glad you pulled through, Steve, but I hope you won’t use that to entrench yourself even more into what appears to be the antivax camp. It’s not fear-mongering to say that scientific principles rule, MDs have our best interests at heart and vaccines work so go get it! But if you don’t want it, that’s fine too. For you. Maybe not for any you put off the idea.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2021 02:08AM by Nightingale.

My daughter's psychiatrist was in his mid 60's and caught Covid and died from it...and when I told an acquaintance about it, she questioned that he actually died from Covid! She part of the local health food/alternative medicine cult...and yeah it's a fucking cult IMHO who are anti vax, anti medical establishment. Idiots.

nt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2021 02:04AM by Lot's Wife.

Above, azsteve asks NG for evidence.

I find that remarkable. In his now deleted rant he made a number of factual assertions that were completely false. He assured us they were true and yet when pressed, didn't even try to find any sources.

Mormonism is a conspiracy theory that falls apart when compared to facts. It survives when people spout theories without any regard to facts or sources. What azsteve (and others) do when discussing COVID is the same thing. He conjures up ideas, presents them as established facts, refuses to provide any foundation for those assertions, and then ignores the facts as presented by BoJ, [l], NG, myself, and others. Whey won't he reply to documented reality? Because it contradicts his religion, which is still the religion of Trump and the Big Lie and everything it entails.

Those lies have cost 600,000 lives SO FAR. The cost of believing fairy tales about a pandemic is enormous in both human and economic terms. We should not treat sanguinary dementia as it if is a plausible fact-based reality.

No matter how fervently he bears his testimony, the earth is not flat.

I am so glad that Mormonism doesn’t have a Delta strain.

MORmONISM does have a Delta strain. Several of them. One was implemented by Gordon BS Hinckley. The Hinckley Delta strain featured; Denials that MORmONS were weird ....that only worked with weirdo MORmONS...... along with the Hinckley concession/ admission that the Joseph Smith story sounded "preposterous" accompanied by an admonition to just believe Smith's BS story anyway in the interest of having MORmON style "faith" ( Which is a recipe for disaster). According to the New Hinckley MORmON gospel, Faith was emphasized over the old MORmON (Joseph Smith) style "knowledge by spiritual confirmation" as part of Hinckley's Big(ger) Tent approach to marketing MORmONISM to the masses of the general public. Explicit deaths threats were taken out of the MORmON temple ceremony to help make it seem more pleasant/ less "weird". Hard core Book of MORmON racism was down played and Blacks were allowed to have the MORmON priestDUD (DUD because it really does NOT do anything). Under Hinckley guidance, LDS Inc bought a Utah version of the Olympics by financing the 2002 Olympic bid bribery scandal. Hinckley wanted a "Utah" (MORmON!!!) Olympics in order to help showcase and promote or "spread around" the (his) new Delta variant of the Book of MORmON church gospel through out the world. Then in true MORmON/Hinckley (BS) fashion, Hinckley made sure that plenty of official LDS inc PR denials were made that the MORmON church would ever do such a thing in order to cover his Hinckley "media and PR genius" tracks.

There was no Olympic related MORmON growth spurt / infection increase because most people still remained way too smart to buy into MORmONISM and its absurdities. As well, a new thing called the internet helped to keep people immune to the MORmON LIES and misinformation that LDS Inc constantly produces and promotes in the hope of spreading around the book of MORmON gospel and infecting people with MORmONISM.

Good grief. mRNA technology has been around since SARS. That's why they could make this one so fast. You know it is effective because all the people not dying now had the vaccine. It doesn't get more effective than that. There have been millions of people vaccinated safely- with fewer issues than an average prescription drug.

Quit using the FDA as an excuse. They issued it as emergency use which means they have high confidence and are collecting data.

The REAL risk is scientifically illiterate people spreading misinformation and unvaccinated people giving the virus more hosts in which to mutate. The next variant might not be held at bay by the vaccine. The more people vaccinated, the safer we will all be.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good grief. mRNA technology has been around since
> SARS. That's why they could make this one so fast.
> You know it is effective because all the people
> not dying now had the vaccine. It doesn't get more
> effective than that. There have been millions of
> people vaccinated safely- with fewer issues than
> an average prescription drug.
===============================
Information & applied reason

> Quit using the FDA as an excuse. They issued it as
> emergency use which means they have high
> confidence and are collecting data.
===============================
Information & applied reason

> The REAL risk is scientifically illiterate people
> spreading misinformation and unvaccinated people
> giving the virus more hosts in which to mutate.
> The next variant might not be held at bay by the
> vaccine. The more people vaccinated, the safer we
> will all be.
===============================
Analytical reasoning & solution


You're informed because you are a forager of information.

You gather information and to that information apply analysis & logic to hammer out reasoned ideas on how the world works - always prepared to reject /modify those ideas in the face of new evidence.

These folks start with Belief.
They then selectively gather only (mis)information which supports the Belief, rejecting all that disproves it as "fake" and "conspiracy."
The Belief is held more important than even life.

And this makes all the difference.

It is why independently verifiable data - even the deaths of hundreds of thousands - does not change these.

As BKP once said, "Sometimes the truth is not very useful."

Apparently he understood the value of a good conspiracy.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As BKP once said, "Sometimes the truth is not very
> useful."
===============================

Wonder if he was thinking "because it gets in the way of my myth."

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The REAL risk is scientifically illiterate people
> spreading misinformation and unvaccinated people
> giving the virus more hosts in which to mutate.
> The next variant might not be held at bay by the
> vaccine. The more people vaccinated, the safer we
> will all be.

Your sources please dagny? Are you just repeating what someone has told you or what you have seen on the evening news?

Most of us (and this includes almost everyone of us) are not biologists with specializations in viruses and with a thorough understanding of the bodily functions that all feed in to how viruses and vaccines affect the body. So we are all relatively scientifically illiterate when it comes to Covid-19 and how we as individuals should deal with it. So let's get real here. Everyone of us are just listening to what various experts say and then we make our own personal decisions based on who's information we trust the most based on our own relatively uneducated approaches. Who here knows enough to say "based on my extensive experience of novel viruses, I can accurately say that .....". To label people "scientifically illiterate" under these conditions where we are all relatively ignorant, is itself very "ignorant", just on its face. Where does this theory come from that says that unvaccinated people are breeding grounds for new Covid-19 variants? It's kind of like the blacks and the priesthood. People make stuff up and years later when those concepts prove unpopular, they make something else up and deny that they ever said the stupid things they said in the past. In this case, it appears that almost every commentor here is a virology expert who knows that the faulty decisions from others are causing all of the problems. Instead, I suggest that we more closely examine the "D variant" to try to find out why it mutated. With billions of people involved, the least likely answer is that everyone on the continent of India screwed-up.

The fear propagated by this thread does nothing of real value if we don't better understand the overall relationships between cause and effect with respect to this pandemic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2021 07:24PM by azsteve.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most of us (and this includes almost everyone of
> us) are not biologists with specializations in
> viruses and with a thorough understanding of the
> bodily functions that all feed in to how viruses
> and vaccines affect the body. So we are all
> relatively scientifically illiterate when it comes
> to Covid-19 and how we as individuals should deal
> with it. So let's get real here. Everyone of us
> are just listening to what various experts say and
> then we make our own personal decisions based on
> who's information we trust the most based on our
> own relatively uneducated approaches. Who here
> knows enough to say "based on my extensive
> experience of novel viruses, I can accurately say
> that .....". To label people "scientifically
> illiterate" under these conditions where we are
> all relatively ignorant, is itself very
> "ignorant", just on its face. Where does this
> theory come from that says that unvaccinated
> people are breeding grounds for new Covid-19
> variants? It's kind of like the blacks and the
> priesthood. People make stuff up and years later
> when those concepts prove unpopular, they make
> something else up and deny that they ever said the
> stupid things they said in the past. In this case,
> it appears that almost every commentor here is a
> virology expert who knows that the faulty
> decisions from others are causing all of the
> problems. Instead, I suggest that we more closely
> examine the "D variant" to try to find out why it
> mutated. With billions of people involved, the
> least likely answer is that everyone on the
> continent of India screwed-up.
==================================

Look, Steve bro --
Just don't take the vaccine!


You are not being attacked.
You do not have to defend nor justify yourself.
Because it is an individual decision.
No one really cares if azsteve takes the vaccine or not.
We all have lives and it's just
Not
That
Important.

This making-of-waves where there is no wind is becoming banal and frankly, a little boring.

I think that the Covid-19 fear-mongering here on this board can be un-necessary and excessive. Just look at the subject line here. I just don't appreciate anyone pontificating to whip-up all of the extra fear-porn here over a disease that is slightly worse than the annual flu in most cases. I caught Covid-19 a few weeks ago and am nearly over it now. During the worst of it, I didn't regret not getting vaccinated ahead of time. I should have natural immunities to it now. Life goes on.

Well, lucky you. You are only thinking about yourself.

My friend got put on a ventilator this weekend in Alabama. I'm pretty sure she wishes she had taken the vaccine. Sure, she was selfish like you when it comes to this topic, but this time we all will get stuck not only with the medical bills but the impact of the virus on others who were not so lucky to think it was just like the flu.

There are 600,000 folks who wish there had been more fear mongering. I doubt you would care about any of them either.

Go volunteer at a hospital in the COVID ward since you think it's such a cake walk.

Steve, if you were alive in 1941 and you had early warnings that Pearl Harbor was about to be bombed by the Japanese, you wouldn't warn America, you'd make plans for a beach day.

Jesus. I recognize you are not a microbiologist like me and obviously have not studied evolutionary virology.

Discussions on this topic from people tracking viruses are on This Week in Virology (Podcast, Microbe TV). Things are changing fast just like a fire in a forest. You need to be ready to shift course, but first you need to understand the behavior of fires.

All the non viral epidemiologist folks who don't know crap about the subject are on TV thinking up any possible reason to instill fear and doubt about this. They use anecdotes and apply random "facts" they barely understand. It's a good thing no one put up with naysayers when the small pox and polio vaccines were distributed.

People who eat Twinkies and take all kinds of prescription drugs are suddenly more concerned about the impact of vaccines on their bodies. Why? Because this were made into a political issue.

We have millions who have taken the vaccine successfully. It's time to stop using the "experimental" talking point as an excuse to prevent people from doing their part to curtail the viral activity. We are all hosts, but the unvaccinated have the potential to die.

You don't need to be provided a source, you just need to read up a little bit. Replication and mutation are prevalent processes in biology. With every cell division, with every viral replication, there is the possibility of mutation. More replication, more mutations. You're questioning a fundamental process that's been well established for a long, long time. Sources abound. You have a functional brain. Look them up.

>
> Your sources please dagny?
>


I suspect that you only care about her 'sources' in order to attack or in some fashion dismiss them. ...along with the suspicion that the 'sources' you've used to assume your position were not subjected to scrutiny of any serious vigor.

I suspect you've applied ideological scrutiny rather than scientific scrutiny to the sources upon which you've taken your stand.

My fuck, Steve. How dare you ask Dagny for her sources?

In your screed yesterday I asked for your sources and you couldn't be bothered. Now you turn around and demand that others do what you lacked the courage and honesty to do.

You, Lolbert, and the other conspiracy lemmings are the greatest threat to the health and political integrity of the United States today.

I live in the Fever Swamp.

DH and I are of the few people we know who are vaccinated. We are bombarded every day with anti-vaxer blathering. EVEN some medical personnel and EVEN EVEN EVEN my dogs' veterinarian are against covid vaccine.

Aside from our own common sense and scientific literature, if there's one person I'm listening to, that person is DAGNY.

!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2021 01:55PM by kathleen.

CZ explicitly said this COVID conspiracy nonsense would not be allowed on the board. Yet here it is, with the usual trolls trolling and, height of hypocrisy, azsteve demanding that others provide sources for factual matters when he's the single most dishonest, source-irresponsible poster around.

It's appalling that this highly dangerous nonsense is now tolerated. RfM has to decide what role it wants to fulfill. Either that or fully open the doors to the bin and change the board name to Lunatics-R-Us.

I have to think of my dad who lived through the Spanish Flu of 1918-1919, and what his family would have given for a vaccine.

Both of my maternal grandparents lost their first spouses to the Spanish Flu.

You beat to the punch about the research has been around since SARs. Also, research today is not the same as the mid 1900s. We advanced tools, methods and super computers to crunch the numbers. IMHO, the vaccine is not experimental.

Most vaccines are tested on 30K or 40K people, and then the data is analyzed to see if there are any issues with the vaccine, which are then followed up.

That of course was done with the covid vaccines, and the data is being reviewed right now. If no issues are found, approval should be forthcoming in a month or two.

However, in addition to the people in the formal studies, these vaccines have been administered to, literally, billions of people around the world. The issues they have uncovered, like the blood clotting issue, are literally one in a million shots. More than one in a million people have a car accident in the US every single day. So yeah, driving to the vaccination site is a bigger risk.

Experimental my foot (or other appropriate body part)

Those using "FDA approval" as a fig leaf will simply move on to a different excuse.

- The FDA approved it only because of political pressure, therefore cannot be trusted

- The FDA is part of the gubmint swamp and the deep state, therefore cannot be trusted

- Muh freedom

There's always something with these bozos.

What a troll. You can't even stick to a consistent name to spout your crap. People like YOU are the problem. You don't have the slightest concept of even remedial virology.

It's a tyranny of the minority. I am so bloody sick of hearing this "my body, my choice" crap. It effects ALL of us that are being RESPONSIBLE for ourselves, our families, our communities and our nation. What about OUR freedom? Our freedom to travel as we like. Not mask. Keep our children and those that can't get the shots healthy and ALIVE. How about the freedom to have elective or not life saving surgery? And what about our freedom not to PAY for this willful stupidity? Why the hell do WE have to keep paying for them? Even companies that are saying get a shot or a daily test. Why should the other RESPONSIBLE employees have to cover the cost of those tests? Who do you think is PAYING for the hospital stays? Even if they have private insurance everyone else with that insurance is PAYING for them. And when we have to limit or lock down again who will pay? ALL of us. There is one economy, not one for the responsible and one for the stupid.

Get a shot or have your insurance quadruple. Get a shot or put up a multi million dollar bond. Get a shot or sign a legal waiver for ALL medical care. Get a shot and stop being a drain on our economy and our lives.

Plus, we’d be surprised to know how many people in our environment are immunocompromised. We need to look out for them.