Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 03:26PM

From the article:
On the same day that Brigham Young University announced the creation of an “Office of Belonging” to combat “prejudice of any kind, including that based on race...and sexual orientation,” Latter-day Saint apostle Jeffrey R. Holland sharply criticized faculty members and students who challenge the faith’s policies on same-sex marriage — and a BYU valedictorian who announced his gay orientation during his 2019 commencement address.

During Monday’s annual University Conference for faculty and staff in the school’s Marriott Center, Holland quoted from a recent letter he received, which said that “some faculty are not supportive of the church’s doctrines and policies and choose to criticize them publicly.”

If maintaining the faith’s policies on LGBTQ members — that it’s not a sin to have same-sex attraction, only acting on it is — costs the school some “professional associations and certifications,” the apostle said, “then so be it.”

The church-owned school “must have the will to stand alone, if necessary,” he said, “being a university second to none in its role primarily as an undergraduate teaching institution that is unequivocally true to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ in the process.”

No one wants it “to come to that,” said Holland, a former BYU president, “but, if it does, we will pursue our own destiny.”

Earlier in the session, BYU President Kevin Worthen said the new Office of Belonging will be led by “a vice president level official who will be a member of the President’s Council” and follows an in-depth report from BYU’s Committee on Race, Equity and Belonging completed in February.

Sounds to me like the current president is trying to move BYU into the 21st century, but Holland is going totally old school.

Funny how Holland is not as adamant about telling folks like Ammon Bundy to sit down and shut up.

I will be interested in the faculty reaction to this diatribe. It is especially shocking to me that Holland is a former BYU president. He ought to know better than to say something so against everything a university is supposed to be about.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 03:34PM

> He ought to know better than
> to say something so against
> everything a university is
> supposed to be about.

    Well, he's just putting ghawd ahead of mammon, which one ought to admire in a myopic, bigoted, misogynistic human bratwurst.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 04:00PM

Classy, that. The German sounds so much more respectful than the American--"weenie".

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 04:23PM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
> If maintaining the faith’s policies on LGBTQ
> members — that it’s not a sin to have same-sex
> attraction, only acting on it is — costs the
> school some “professional associations and
> certifications,” the apostle said, “then so be
> it.”

What if it causes the church to lose upcoming generations, Jeff? C'mon, the church will change the policy in a few years anyway. Might as well do it now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 04:34PM

Would be interesting if some state bar associations choose to not recognize law degrees from BYU much like has happened here with Trinity Western University in BC and their stance against LGBTQ and the fallout from that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 05:15PM

Here's an article (from June 2018) on the Supreme Court decision on the Trinity Western case:

Bottom Line: They didn't get their law school due to mandating sex only between people who are married to each other and they specified "a man and a woman" which the SCC found to be discriminatory (in view of the fact that SS marriage has been legal in BC since 2005).

The university has a "mandatory covenant" that seeks to control students' choices in their private life. This was the problematic area the Supreme Court zeroed in on.

Excerpts from the article:

"The mandatory covenant binds students to a strict code of conduct that includes abstinence from sex outside of heterosexual marriage.

"The majority judgment said the covenant would deter LGBT students from attending the proposed law school, and those who did attend would be at risk of significant harm.

"It found the public interest of the law profession gives it the right to promote equality by ensuring equal access, support diversity within the bar and prevent harm to LGBT students.

"The university's mandatory comprehensive covenant agreement requires that all students and faculty pursue a holy life "characterized by humility, self-sacrifice, mercy and justice, and mutual submission for the good of others." It requires members to abstain from using vulgar language, lying or cheating, stealing, using degrading materials such as pornography, and "sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman."

"While that rule effectively bars anyone who is unmarried from having sexual relations, it's the reference to "man and a woman" that is considered discriminatory against LGBT people. Same-sex marriage became legal in Canada in 2005.

"Janet Epp Buckingham, a TWU professor who helped develop the law school proposal, said she was saddened by the ruling.

"We feel that this is a loss for diversity in Canada," she said. "Canada has traditionally upheld values of diversity for a broad array of religious views. So we're very disappointed in the way the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled today."


One suggestion Buckingham made that may find a way around the SCC ruling against establishing the law school at the U is to do away with the mandatory covenant.

That would seem to be a reasonable step all the way 'round.

There's always the thought about why a person would want to go to a Christian-based university that doesn't align with one's private life choices. But that's a different question. It would be good, though, if they could just leave private stuff private.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 04:41PM

The old farts running the church probably think LGBTQ is a type of sandwich.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 04:46PM

Holland is used to being a big fish in a small pond. He’s used to the little universe he exists in revolving around him. He lives in a bubble of hanging around other church members and being the center of attention when he goes visits some stakes or missions somewhere.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: lillium ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 04:16PM

Lettuce, Gruyere, Bacon, Tomato. Quinoa

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 04:48PM

    Ron, I'm too lazy to go looking for it, but a couple of days ago I read an article that mentioned that the American Bar Association was going to make sure that all its accredited law schools were in compliance with federal laws governing the treatment of minorities.

    One might suppose that a Gay law student might find some reason to point the finger at the J. Rueben Clark School of Law, but I'll put a few bucks on an exmo being the first to sue the school, for admitting him as a mormon and then kicking him out when he shows his exmo true colors.  In other words, would an accredited law school be 'guilty' of a civil rights violation for throwing a person out of school on the basis of that person denying the divinity (or fudge) of the One True Crutch?

    "The United States Department of Education recognizes the Council of the ABA Section on Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar as a professional accrediting agency for law schools in the U.S. American law schools that are accredited by the council are termed "approved" by the ABA, which indicates the law school was found to be in compliance with ABA accreditation standards.

    "ABA accreditation is important not only because it affects the recognition of the law schools involved, but it also affects a graduate's ability to practice law in a particular state.  Specifically, in most U.S. jurisdictions, graduation from an ABA-accredited law school is a prerequisite towards being allowed to sit for that state's bar exam, and even for existing lawyers to be admitted to the bar of another state upon motion.  Even states which recognize unaccredited schools within their borders will generally not recognize such schools from other jurisdictions for purposes of bar admission."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 04:57PM

I thought BYU law school was already dragged through a knot hole backwards by the ABA for their policy of expelling students who, as a matter of conscience, resign from LDS Inc while enrolled in the school.

I believe that the law school, at least, no longer enforces that policy, and that was done specifically to keep ABA certification.

I couldn't find a link. Hopefully some of y'all have better luck.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2021 04:57PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 05:10PM

So because they don't like the heat, they'll spare the career of a student of the law school for not acting fully mormon, but the rest of the student body still has to kiss up to whomever signs off yearly on their worthiness...

Am I surprised?


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Shinehah ( )
Date: August 23, 2021 10:32PM

Holland wants to make sure that Oaks doesn't take home the Biggest Bigot trophy again this year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Phantom Shadow ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 12:18AM

Big reaction on Twitter today. Against Holland.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 11:00AM

From who? The general public or church members?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 11:09AM

Good. I’m hoping for a feature article in The Chronicle of Higher Education. I can guarantee that the reaction of their readers will be through-the-roof negative.

I think Holland actually grasps the enormity of the problems LDS Inc is facing. I almost feel sorry for him. Almost.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 11:21AM

I've stated this before that it's the lower level to mid management leaders who are in the greatest danger of leaving because they have to deal with all the problems every day. Just barking orders from the top doesn't solve any problems.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 11:59AM

Isn't Mormons wanting a progressive, kinder, less bigoted church an admission that either they know revelation is not coming through their leaders, or, that God himself needs an update?

I can see Holland pouting and stamping his feet at the newly demonstrated lack of sycophancy arising from his groupies.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 12:27PM

Jeffery Holland suffers from clinical depression. I think being in the Quorum of the Twelve right now is probably taxing. You have a very aggressive prophet who wants to change things as fast as he can. The church doesn’t like change. The more you try and change it the more stress in the organization you have. Add in all the stress the COVID panic has caused. Also the membership has become divided over political and social issues.

Right now society is splitting apart and that split is happening even inside the church. I saw Elder Bednar not too long ago. The man looked really stressed out. Holland the last couple of years has seemed like he has one nerve left and when someone gets on it he snaps.

To be honest Holland looks like he’s due for a mental breakdown. Anyways it’s not serving under Gordo or Monson anymore where things were more predictable. You don’t know what crazy Russ is going to do and you are dealing with him while the church and world are dividing under the pressure in a world that’s gone crazy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 03:28PM

    I suspect that among the 14 apostles who are not the prophet, there are some spirited discussions about what they ought to be doing and/or not doing.  But the rules say that only one person speaks for the church, and nobody really knows just how much editing her eminence, Sister-Prophet Wendy Russell, is doing with regard to the revelations her old man is receiving...

    How many apostles cherish and honor the prophet's wife?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: profitmonster ( )
Date: August 31, 2021 07:08PM

“In a world that’s gone crazy” - My thoughts are validated by this statement. :)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 04:16PM

I think one of the biggest non religious fight involves which member of the Q15 has to partner up with Rusty for a round of golf every Monday.

Who wants to play with a 96 year old who keeps asking "What ball? I don't see any ball. How am I supposed to hit something that doesn't exist?"

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2021 04:18PM by messygoop.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: pollythinks ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 04:28PM

Isn't a "hissy" fit one relegated for females?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 10:09PM

Maybe Holland is undergoing a sex change and his estrogen levels spiked.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 10:14PM

They will send Elder Holland to Russia on a special assignment to help get a temple built there. That will keep him out of sight. Putin will like everything he said at BYU. He will be welcomed. If a church leader is stirring controversy you send them on a mission.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 05:11PM

Not necessary for man boobs, which I would not want to see.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 11:28PM

The term originally referred to women, but now it pretty much means overwrought, and if Jeff Holland doesn’t qualify as overwrought, I don’t know who would.

Most of the tv pundits I would describe as “pearl clutchers” are also male.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 05:04PM

I prefer to think of Holland having a fit of the vapors.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 08:06PM

Holland's speech has clearly backfired magnificently. I have never seen so many "fence sitting" members badmouthing the church and BYU on twitter and other social media sites. Between promoting masks and vaccines to the right-wing cultist members, and Holland's bigoted diatribe the exodus will be picking up speed.

HH =)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 24, 2021 08:38PM

    I would very much giggle if word filtered down from on high that Holland was just speaking as a man and that the church, along with that Jesus guy, loves everyone, no matter their race, color, sexual orientation, national origin, or bank account balance...

    Everyone is guaranteed a love minimum, but there are some the church and the lord love more.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 08:39AM

Amen Brutha.

HH =)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: AZCrazy ( )
Date: August 25, 2021 05:01PM

...If Jeff thinks this is the "greatest university in the world" then why did he (and his own sons, and most of the other sitting members of the 12) choose to go to Yale, Harvard, and Stanford etc etc. for their post graduate degrees?

(...oh I don't know, perhaps it's because having a Masters, Phd or JD from BYU is a joke in the business and academic world???)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: August 26, 2021 10:33AM

Some people learn from mistakes.

Some people learn to hide mistakes.

Some people are too arrogant to know they've made mistakes.

Some like Holland ignore the very possibility of a mistake as they swim in their own self importance and double down. Makes me wonder if he really believes God is behind him or has just been seduced by his own pomposity.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: August 27, 2021 04:51PM

I said it before and I will say it again
It is all about mind control.....

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In

Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 ********  **         **        **         **     ** 
 **        **    **   **        **    **   ***   *** 
 **        **    **   **        **    **   **** **** 
 ******    **    **   **        **    **   ** *** ** 
 **        *********  **        *********  **     ** 
 **              **   **              **   **     ** 
 ********        **   ********        **   **     **