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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 05, 2021 03:58PM

Article from Religious News Service: “Flunking Sainthood” by Jana Reiss:

“Half of US Mormons are COVID-19 ‘vaccine hesitant’ or ‘vaccine refusers,’ study shows.”

“The study finds Mormons believe in vaccinations in general, and they trust their church leaders to do the right thing. Yet church leaders have been urging members to get the COVID-19 shot, and half don't want to.”

https://religionnews.com/2021/05/06/half-of-us-mormons-are-covid-19-vaccine-hesitant-or-vaccine-resistant-study-shows/


(Disclaimer: Sample size of Mormons was small (105); therefore, margin of error is “relatively high”). I find the writer’s statements to be interesting on their own, even without the responses from Mormons.


Excerpts:

“Fifty percent of Mormons in the United States say they have gotten or will definitely get vaccinated against COVID-19, while the other half are either “vaccine hesitant” or “vaccine refusers,” according to a recent study by PRRI and Interfaith Youth Corps.

“Just half of Mormons are vaccine accepters, while a third are vaccine hesitant, meaning they said they will either “wait and see how the COVID-19 vaccines are working for others” or they “will only get a COVID-19 vaccine if required” to do so.

“The remaining 17% said they would not get a vaccine at all.

“… these Mormons apparently are hesitant or refusing even though two-thirds of them agree vaccinations are an important way to love their neighbors.

“While a slim majority (53%) of Americans agreed with the statement “Because getting vaccinated against COVID-19 helps protect everyone, it is a way to live out the religious principle of loving my neighbors,” a clear two-thirds majority of Mormons did.

“In fact, Mormons ranked second among all the religious groups surveyed in the percentage who agreed getting vaccinated was a loving and principled thing to do.


NG: I have commented before that I’m surprised that more Christians aren’t following the Golden Rule when it comes to vaccination, as it’s “the greatest” commandment. I guess they don’t acknowledge that getting vaccinated is anything to do with love or concern for others. That could be the only way they could ignore the commandment, in my view.


Article:

“… Mormons ranked first in saying they could trust in the leaders of their religious community to do what is right.

“… [the leaders of] The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have been proactive in taking COVID seriously from the very beginning.

“They shut down churches and temples almost immediately and have been cautious about reopening.

“They encouraged people around the world to wear masks as a way to prevent the spread of the disease. Elder Dale Renlund in December called masks “a sign of Christlike love,” telling church members they owed it to the vulnerable to wear masks for their protection.

“Renlund also made it crystal-clear he was saying this in his role as a religious leader. “Today I speak to you not as a former physician,” he announced. “I speak to you as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

“They also made a very public point of getting vaccinated in January, as soon as it was possible to do so.

“And they issued a statement that made their pro-vaccination stance clear. “In word and deed, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has supported vaccinations for generations. As a prominent component of our humanitarian efforts, the Church has funded, distributed and administered life-saving vaccines throughout the world. Vaccinations have helped curb or eliminate devastating communicable diseases, such as polio, diphtheria, tetanus, smallpox and measles. Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life.”

“They also recently issued a policy that people who want to serve a foreign mission need to get vaccinated. Anyone who refuses will be assigned to serve a mission in his or her home country.

“So, by statement, example, photo op and policy, the church’s leaders have made it perfectly clear they want members to get vaccinated. And members’ responses to the PRRI questions suggest they generally trust their church leaders, and they agree getting vaccinated is what a loving religious person should do.

“Yet half do not plan to actually get vaccinated.

“… it’s not just that Mormons in general say they trust their leaders. A separate question asked respondents if they trusted their religious leaders to give them good information specifically about the COVID-19 vaccine.

“Once again, Mormons came out at the very top of the heap, with the highest positive response of any religious group.

“So, Mormons: What gives?

“My take from this is that, as a colleague reminded me recently, we’ve reached a situation in the intersection of religion and American politics where politics trumps religion. When push comes to shove, people will now choose their cherished political beliefs over and against the teachings of their religion.

“We’ve seen this for years with progressive Mormons who have sided with LGBTQ+ rights even when their church leaders repeatedly and unequivocally taught homosexuality and same-sex marriage were sins. Liberal Mormons have been inhabiting that dissonant space for a long time now.

“What’s new and different here is that vaccine refusal is happening on the right, not the left. Overall in America, it is political conservatives who have been denying the reality of COVID and now are rejecting vaccinations at a much higher rate than political liberals. Vaccine hesitancy and refusal are particularly rampant among QAnon conspiracy theorists (who espouse views that nearly 1 in 5 U.S. Mormons regard sympathetically…).

“In U.S. Mormonism, conservative members have long considered their politics a natural and godly extension of their religion. Being so clearly on the wrong side of the church is a new position for them.”

The article includes several charts comparing percentages of responses from people of various faiths or branches of faiths. It’s interesting to see that respondents who scored highest on vaccine acceptance (85%) and on being vaccinated as a way to live the principle of loving one’s neighbours (69%) were Jewish.

On vaccine acceptance: Jewish: 85%; White Catholic: 68%; White mainline Protestant 63%; Black Protestant: 49%; Mormon 50%.

On vaccination as a way of loving one’s neighbours: Jewish: 69%; White Catholic 57%; White mainline Protestant: 55%; Black Protestant: 52%; Mormon: 66%.

-----

I’m not surprised that Mormon leadership stands behind the principles of public health and have urged their members to be vaccinated as recommended to curb the COVID-19 pandemic. What does surprise me is that a significant percentage of Mormons will ignore their leaders now just when it’s most crucial to adhere to public health regulations and recommendations. Of course, as a short-term “convert” I knew next to nothing about the history and doctrine of the church and its leaders. RfM has been far more helpful for me with that information than the church or its members. I would not have predicted, or understood, that Mormons would choose political ideology over church leaders but apparently that is one of the main reasons for kicking back against public health recommendations or mandates re the vaccines for COVID. My brain was exploding trying to understand people’s reasoning for refusal but I see it better now, at least with regard to Mormons, thanks to articles like this and knowledgeable posters on this board.

We’ve said here in Canada that our relatively high numbers of vaccine acceptance are because we managed to avoid politicizing the issues. That ship has sailed now, apparently, and we’ve run into a stone wall now of vaccine hesitancy and refusal such that surgical and medical treatment is being postponed/cancelled for patients in need due to high numbers of COVID patients in ERs and ICUs, crowding out all others.

I wouldn’t have expected to encounter anything like this, ever. Many of the accounts of people not able to access care are absolutely heartbreaking.

I don’t know what the solution will be or if there even is one. If Mormons overwhelmingly trust their leaders (as they say) and believe in following the prophet, then what the hell? So, what gives Mormons? Indeed.



[Completely unrelated comment: I learned at a very early age from my father that saying “gotten” is the sin next to murder (murder of the English language, lol). I note that its use has suddenly greatly increased in recent times, in writing and in speech, and also in the article discussed above. Looking it up, I see that the word is described as “the past participle of the word ‘get’ and it’s used in North America; however, people in other English-speaking countries use ‘got’. My father was English and quite the wordsmith, hence our lesson about gotten. The word gotten hurts my ears and got isn’t too lovely either. “Have gotten” as in the article – atrocious!]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2021 04:05PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: September 05, 2021 04:54PM

I ain't got no problem with gotten.

The pushback is an interesting phenomenon, I think because it's seen as a secular issue. If they needed the vaccine for a temple recommend, compliance would be higher.

Nothing is going to convince the refusers. The unvaccinated who come down sick should be housed in tents to free up hospital space. Changing beliefs isn't going to happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2021 04:54PM by bradley.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 05, 2021 05:24PM

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I ain't got no problem with gotten.

Yeah, I know I'm ridiculous that way. With all that's going on in the world, gotta let the insignificant stuff go.

But sometimes focusing on inconsequentials is a way to deflect stress from all the big stuff, maybe.


> The pushback is an interesting phenomenon, I think
> because it's seen as a secular issue. If they
> needed the vaccine for a temple recommend,
> compliance would be higher.

I wonder. If you couldn't get a TR for what seems like a conscience-type issue to many, that could be a good excuse to just skip the temple without having to admit you really seriously dislike the boring sessions and relative weirdness of the whole thing.


> Nothing is going to convince the refusers. The
> unvaccinated who come down sick should be housed
> in tents to free up hospital space. Changing
> beliefs isn't going to happen.

I'm coming to see that some will never be convinced. I mistakenly thought at first that reason would suffice. I assumed it was a case of people just not knowing or understanding. If refusal is arising from a religious or political belief, I agree that it would be a next-to-impossible task to try and convince people to change their point of view.

I've read accounts of seriously ill or dying COVID patients asking for a vaccine when it's (by definition) too late. So that's what it takes to change an entrenched idea or opinion? Most unfortunately for those people, it's too late. I wonder if some of those in the reluctant or refusal categories would read those stories and change their minds while they still have time.

Interesting idea about putting the COVID patients in the tents outside to keep ICU and ER available for non-COVID emergencies. I guess people would say it's unethical somehow. Or that it's difficult to render ICU care outside the proper ward for it. Etc.

A thorny thicket of moral issues. Too bad it's taking so long, and costing so many lives, to get to the other side of it all.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: September 06, 2021 04:19AM

I too hate "gotten", Nightingale. I hate it almost as much as "If I would have..." and "I could care less"....

Aaaargh!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 06, 2021 04:33AM

It's you two with your English background looking down on the benighted yanks. In the UK and derivative* cultures like Canada and Australia, it's "got" and not "gotten." You guys (fellows? blokes?) are practicing cultural imperialism long after the empire has. . . well, you know.





*Yes, that was intentional. ;-)

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 04:46PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You guys ... are practicing cultural imperialism long
> after the empire has. . . well, you know.

Cultural imperialism, lol.

Out of interest, I looked up that phrase. Some examples for real:

"The greatest example of cultural imperialism is the native tribe's ownership of casinos on their land granted by federal laws. Other influences were guns, the spreading of smallpox, and the introduction of alcohol."

Negative influence, iow.

Wordplay is a kinder, gentler approach.

Re imperialism: It's a "the empire is dead, long live the empire" kind of thing. :)

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Posted by: Investigating atheism ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 06:37PM

I’m embarrassed by my concern with minor matters, but I add “would of” to "If I would have..." and "I could care less"

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 09:14PM

As long as were on this subject, one that gets under my skin is "step foot" rather than "set foot."

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Posted by: Jaxson ( )
Date: September 05, 2021 06:50PM

Why get vaccinated when a priesthood blessing and a little dab of olive oil will do ya? If the person dies...hallelujah!!...god has a greater calling for him in the "here after".

When you are raised with a "god's will" mindset, urgency to get vaccinated is a low (or no) priority.

If I believed in the Mormon god, I could picture an exchange between him and a Mormon COVID victim -

Dead Mormon: "Hey Big E. What happened down there with this COVID thing. I was an active member, paid my tithing, and cleaned toilets. When I got sick, I prayed fervently, paid my tithing, got a priesthood blessing, and waited for you to save me."

Elohim: "WTF!?!?! I sent a vaccine for you to take to save you. And don't call me Big E."

Dead Mormon: "Ohhhhh...gotcha. Well, as long as I am here, what is the "greater calling" you have for me?"

Elohim: "WTF!?!?!? I don't have any greater call....wait a minute...you do toilets, right??"

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 05, 2021 07:40PM

Hilarious, bradley.

"I was an active member, paid my tithing, and cleaned toilets." LOL

Has to be the only "mainstream" religion I've heard of where adherents clean toilets as part of their memberships. Certainly by divine injunction (priesthood calling).

Fortunately for me, my calling was bulletin board monitor (heavily supervised by the bishop because you can't trust converts, right?). Then I graduated to being a Primary teacher. Very short term due to my off-label actions, such as taking a class outside (not allowed to enjoy nature, I guess).

Boring callings. But at least I got to spend my time with kids, not toilets.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2021 07:41PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 05, 2021 07:48PM

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But at least I got to spend my
> time with kids, not toilets.

Not a parent, it appears.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 05, 2021 08:07PM

Hahahahahahaha. Yeah.

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Posted by: BoydKKK ( )
Date: September 06, 2021 10:37PM

What gives is simple. It is obvious that MoronicPriesthood leadership in SLC is following the crowd. They are not leading anything. Gods Anointed - DustyRusty - did not come out for vaccination until after many others did. He is a cheezy follower - not a leader.

Why follow someone like that?

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 08:57AM

This is a very interesting subject that has been on my mind. I have lots of anti-vaxer friends who see this as a political tool that is being used to strip away freedom and make society reliant on the government. They are especially filled with hatred towards the vaccine passport which they see as the mark of the beast, where the unvaccinated will be denied the priveledge of travel and buying and selling. Basically ostracized from society. For anyone who has read the Bible (Revelations of St. John the Beloved) these are very real fears of the last days that many on Christian right literally believe.

One of the great hang ups is that the church leaders haven't addressed the theology at all. They've told everyone to obey then cdc regulations but they haven't addressed the worry of the government taking over our lives, of the great reset, and if we should really trust government leaders such as Andrew Como to not abuse power and become an anti Christ. It's a laziness on the part of the leaders.

Another factor I see is that America has always been a tough nation full of tough people that have gone through a lot of hardship. I remember years ago when I lived down south (where they have the lowest vaccination rates yet highest belief in the Bible). The people especially blacks had a don't tread on me attitude. They were dissatisfied with the government, disassociated with the wider popular culture, had no respect for academia or professionals. They were independent, non political. There's deep hurt that's been passed down from Civil War times. Remember the confederates didn't get Union Pensions and poverty ran rampant through the South until recently. The government has failed large parts of the country.

Canada attracted a different sort of pioneer, ones loyal to Britain and the Queen. The Cavaliers and Royalists, perhaps less manly. It's a different sort of person.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 10:37AM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the great hang ups is that the church
> leaders haven't addressed the theology at all.
> They've told everyone to obey then cdc regulations

Let me know when they take D&C 132 out of their books.

> It's a laziness on the part
> of the leaders.

Some great and benevolent god you got their choosing "lazy leaders." ROTFLMAO. In fact, your fearless prophet called you all lazy.

"Your mountains may be loneliness, doubt, illness, or other personal problems. Your mountains will vary, and yet the answer to each of your challenges is to increase your faith. That takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples will always struggle to muster even a particle of faith."

I guess you are lacking the particle of faith to take preventative measures for a killing virus.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 01:41PM

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another factor I see is that America has always
> been a tough nation full of tough people that have
> gone through a lot of hardship.

> Canada attracted a different sort of pioneer, ones
> loyal to Britain and the Queen. The Cavaliers and
> Royalists, perhaps less manly. It's a different
> sort of person.


Pioneer Life from The Canadian Encyclopedia:
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/pioneer-life

Excerpts:

“As each new area of Canada was opened to European settlement, pioneers faced the difficult task of building homes and communities from the ground up. Pioneer life revolved around providing the basic necessities of existence in a northern wilderness — food, shelter, fuel and clothing. Pioneering life was integral to family life and provided social stability for the settlement of a larger population across the country.

“Some pioneer settlers brought personal belongings, including furniture, kitchen utensils, books and ornaments. Some settled on land prepared by Colonization Companies or within reach of villages or towns. For most, however — especially before roads, canals and railways provided communication and transportation of goods — pioneering on all of Canada's frontiers meant isolation, deprivation and hardship. Success was often measured by sheer survival. Yet, usually within a few years, primitive pioneering was followed by relative comfort, and the prospect of security and even prosperity for one's children. Persistence, optimism, thrift, resourcefulness and the acceptance of unremitting hard work became character traits valued by succeeding generations long after pioneer conditions had passed.

“Furniture was often homemade. Consider, for example, the chair made from a barrel, described by Catharine Parr Traill in The Female Emigrant's Guide (1854). Cloth for blankets and clothing, carpets to cover wood floors, pails, and children's toys were also homemade. The mending of boots, harnesses and tinware sometimes had to await the arrival of a travelling tradesman.

“Providing fuel for the huge fireplaces, which were usually the dwelling's only source of heat, was a constant chore. Timber was plentiful in many areas but still had to be felled, trimmed, cut into lengths and carried home.

“Pioneers adapted familiar institutions such as churches, schools, local government, and the web of social manners and customs, to new conditions. The characteristic co-operative principle found expression in community work parties — also known as bees — for house building, barn raising, clearing fields and making quilts. It was also reflected in local organization and relations between the sexes. A church might serve Presbyterians in the morning and Methodists at night. A school district would be speedily formed, with the teacher being paid by local assessment and boarded around the community. Settlers worked together to build roads, to attract tradesmen and small industry, and to promote the prosperity of their district.

“Pioneers on fur-trading, lumbering, mining and ranching frontiers were usually single men. But women joined in the settlement of New France in the 17th and 18th centuries. They also were pioneers in the Maritimes and Upper Canada from 1760 to 1860, and throughout the prairie homesteading era, from 1870-1914. Women's work was essential to the comfort and long-term success of a farm operation.

“Canadian immigration and the Dominion Lands Policy encouraged family life as a guarantee of social stability and a larger population. Pioneer women worked tirelessly for their family's material and cultural betterment. Although they suffered loneliness and hardship, the women’s courage and strength gave them a place of respect in Canadian life.”

-----

Re the English Civil War, a point of order: Cavaliers and Royalists were the same group of people. The way you've phrased your comment makes it sound like you think it's two different groups. Too, they weren't "loyal to the Queen" as you state, but to the King at the time.



Here's a brief account of the settlement of Canada by people from many different origins (not including, for our purposes here, the history of the Aboriginal peoples who were already here before European immigration):

From the McCord Museum in Quebec:

http://collections.musee-mccord.qc.ca/scripts/explore.php?Lang=1&elementid=15__true&tableid=11&tablename=theme&contentlong


“From the founding of the city of Quebec in 1608, to the handing over of Canada to Great Britain in 1763, France controlled three-quarters of the total land mass of North America.

“The first inhabitants in New France were mostly single men. They arrived as indentured labourers, that is, they did not pay their fare to cross the Atlantic but after arriving in New France had to work for 36 months to reimburse their masters for the cost of their passage. Fed and housed for the duration of their contract of service, they could if they wished return to France when it ended.

“In the early 1660s almost half of the inhabitants of New France were recent immigrants. The population grew as more colonists arrived; by1666 it numbered 3,215 persons.

“When the British took political control in 1763, New France had 70,000 inhabitants. The number of English-speaking settlers in Canada rose rapidly after the American Revolution and the arrival here of the Loyalists from the American colonies to the south, as well as the expansion of immigration from Europe (largely from Great Britain).

“According to the 1870-1871 census of Canada, the population of the nation was composed mainly of people of British origin (2.1 million) and French origin (1 million). In addition to the German-speaking immigrants (203,000) and to the Aboriginals (136,000 in 1851), there were small groups of people who had arrived from several other countries.

“The construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway in the early 1880s increased the pace of immigration, in part by attracting a large number of skilled labourers as well as British, American and European engineers to the Canadian West.”

-----

One of my points in laying out this history is to show the mix of immigrants who contributed to building the nation of Canada - a little more complex than just a bunch of Cavaliers that were mentioned by Maca.

Another is to demonstrate that the early immigrants were hard-working, industrious, skilled people, settling the land, building the railroads, roads, canals, and building homes and communities. According to the first article above, they experienced isolation, deprivation and hardship. They are described as resourceful, optimistic and hard-working.

Of note, women participated in the settlement of Canada (by Europeans) and were equally hard-working. Maca's comments sound like only males settled the land, which is not accurate.

All of this is a long way from stating that Canada was settled by Royalists. That is simplistic, especially in view of the complexities of the English Civil War (Roundheads and Cavaliers).

Too, the settlement of Canada includes the history of the Aboriginal Peoples who were here before the first European settlers. That is an important historical reality unto itself which is still being reckoned with in our own day. Overview (from McCord Museum article linked above):

"The Aboriginal world was radically transformed when Europeans began settling in Canada - the French in the St. Lawrence lowlands and the English along the coasts of James Bay and Hudson Bay. Aboriginal groups, for example, became embroiled in conflicts over the right to trade furs with the Europeans and to control the fur trade routes into the interior of the continent.

"Another legacy: the Europeans introduced to these peoples diseases they had never before encountered such as measles and smallpox, as well as typhus, tuberculosis and syphilis. Over half of the residents of some Aboriginal communities died during the various epidemics, such as the one that struck Huronia in 1639."

-----

Bottom line is that Canadian settlers were hard-working, resourceful people, women and men, who suffered deprivation, isolation, separation from loved ones and severe challenges of many kinds as indicated above.

As for Maca's description of Canadian settlers being "less manly"? I think not. Especially in view of the fact that women were settlers too. I assume they were fully womanly as they too left homes and families and helped build new lives here.

On a personal note, Canadian men have always seemed pretty manly to me.


(I want to acknowledge the ongoing realities of Truth and Reconciliation with Aboriginal Peoples that are ongoing in Canada as we speak. Our settlement history includes the most unfortunate aspect of the communicable diseases brought by Europeans that decimated First Nations communities as well as our intrusion on their land and interruptions in life as they knew it (understatements) but this is not the main topic of my post or this thread so I'll leave it there).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2021 01:52PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 01:56PM

macaRomney thinks Mormonism and American government are failing to fulfill their responsibility to provide a theological basis for COVID vaccinations. Perhaps he can explain the theological justifications offered by earlier and more responsible religions for MMR, polio, and other mandatory childhood vaccines.

Do you remember those little circular scars on older people's shoulders from, I think it was, tuberculosis shots? Could it be that our ancestors were all tricked into getting the Mark of the Beast long ago?

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 02:05PM

I've always thought those scars came from the smallpox vaccine. Turns out it's also the TB vaccine. (So do you have two scars?)

From:

https://immunizebc.ca/ask-us/questions/


"In BC, there are 2 live vaccines that you may have received in the past where scab would form after vaccine administration and leave a scar at the administration site.

"Smallpox [Vaccinia] Vaccine: After smallpox was eliminated from the world, routine vaccination against smallpox was stopped because it was no longer needed. In BC, we stopped giving smallpox vaccine in 1980. The smallpox vaccine was given by a special technique that caused a blister which formed a scab and when the scab fell off, it left a scar (usually in the deltoid area of the upper arm).


"Bacille Calmette-Guérin (BCG) Vaccine [for TB]: The BCG vaccine is not currently recommended for routine use in any Canadian population. In BC, the BCG vaccine was discontinued for health care workers in the 1970s and in 2003 the program was discontinued in BC First Nations communities.The BCG vaccine is given intradermally (under the superficial layers of the skin) that forms a papule (small raised swelling) or ulceration (sore on the skin in 50% of people) that leads to a scar (usually in the deltoid area of the upper arm)."

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 02:04PM

The membership believes that everything the apostles and prophets say is the word of God . . . as long as it aligns with what they already believed. Hence, many can stand behind Holland's relatively hateful comments to those sympathetic to issues faced by LGBTQIA+, but if Nelson tells them to get the COVID vaccine, he's out of his lane; they're comfortable with ignoring him.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 02:13PM

That's exactly right. Using BoJ's metaphor for Trumpians, the Sorcerer's Apprentice has lost control. The members increasingly believe and do what they want.

On a different point, I wonder how you feel comfortable administering, or ordering administered, tetanus shots without first providing a theological justification for why they are not part of a satanic plot. How is that possibly responsible medicine?

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 04:25PM

It might be a problem for me were I not working for the adversary in the first place. (My SSN is 666-66-6666, btw.) For those who believe in a Supreme Being who actively directs and intercedes in day-to-day mortal life, any and all medical interventions, vaccines included, circumvent the will of God. From the perspective of those of us on the dark side, however, the world will be a better place once Bill Gates and his minions can monitor the thoughts of everyone and can intervene with said thoughts when necessary for the common good, or at least for the common good of Bill Gates and his minions.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 04:32PM

666-66-6666?

Why, that's almost my phone number!

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 05:20PM

We're obviously karmically connected.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 05:24PM

That should worry you deeply.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 05:33PM

I'm looking at eternal damnation in almost every direction. What's one more questionable connection?

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 05:44PM

Thanks for the laughs, you two. Very welcome. Things are tense lately, all over the damn place.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 11:37PM

Now you guys know you shouldn't give out personal information like that! With your SS# people can take out loans and steal your identity! And now LW is going to get a ton of spam calls. Don't say I didn't warn you :)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 11:42PM

You're just jealous because you don't have the mark of the beast like all us cool kids do.

And as for my phone number, you don't know what the last digit is. So I'm safe!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2021 01:23AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: September 08, 2021 01:02AM

But there are only 10 possibilities.


Which means that 9 people are going to be very upset wnen they start getting spam calls for you.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 08, 2021 01:23AM

Drats, foiled again!

No mark of the beast for you either, [l]

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: September 08, 2021 12:56AM

Thanks for the retroactive warning, Susan.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 05:22PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's exactly right. Using BoJ's metaphor for
> Trumpians, the Sorcerer's Apprentice has lost
> control. The members increasingly believe and do
> what they want.


“Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”

Not so much.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 02:05PM

I think it goes back to a long-standing subculture in which the leadership express stances that align with society at large -- for public consumption -- but members "know" the real deal. Think polygamy, racism, sexism, etc.

"I don't know that we teach that" (but we do, wink wink, or did).

The cannon fodder are well trained in this dynamic. Perhaps to the point that it could even frustrate the leadership at this point. In other words, the morgbots are simply behaving like morgbots.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 02:12PM

I appreciate any insights into how, where, what and why because all of you all know and understand Mormonism a whole lot better than I ever have or ever will.

It's still hard to grasp why members believe in following the prophet but still make their own decisions as and how they like. Unfortunate that it turns out to be so on this crucial decision as to whether to vaccinate or not.

(Not that I think people shouldn't make their own decisions in general. But if you're going to preach follow the guy behind the curtain and generally do as you're told, why separate from the flock on this vital issue?)


One side effect may be that members start liking doing their own thing and then the Prophet et al will have lost their hold. They may not care for how that goes for them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2021 02:13PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 04:35PM

The question always looming in my mind, as there are devout members very near and dear to me, is whether or not they would drink the purple Kool-Aid (or Flavor-Aid, which was supposedly the drink of choice for Jones' followers) if directed by the to do so by The Prophet. I would like to think THAT is where most would draw the line, but I'm not so sure.

Oddly, I suspect there are those Mormons out there who won't get the vaccine but who would drink the cocktail of death if ordered to do so by The Prophet. One reeks of caving to liberal ideology. The other doesn't.

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Posted by: NormaRae ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 04:31PM

Yeah, and the same people who looked down their noses at people with double piercings or tattoos, because the so-called prophet said not to do that, are the ones who will argue the big cheese is only giving his personal opinion on the subject of vaccines. Now, which one would God be more likely to have actually weighed in on if He were going to speak so one of the old geezers? Life saving precautions or cosmetic procedures? Especially since he's never weighed in on breast or nose surgery?

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 04:36PM

Yep.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 07, 2021 05:54PM

I came across an article written by a Christian pastor, Tavis Bohlinger at Grace Community Church in California, briefly discussing the misinterpretations of scripture that are in part fuelling the uproar in some circles over the COVID-19 vaccination.

The article includes religious ideas and comments on various scriptures. (Likely unwanted or unsuited for some RfM readers but it is helpful to me to understand the reasons some Christians have for their opposition to masks and vaccines. If I don't understand I just get too frustrated).

NB: I have put the paragraphs in different order than the writer did, for our purposes here.

His article from May 2020 (NB: religious, by definition. It also includes replies to him below his article from religious folks/antis – I haven’t included any of those comments):

https://academic.logos.com/covid-19-and-the-mark-of-the-beast/


Excerpts:

“Watching the news a few days ago, I saw photos and videos of those protesting the COVID-19 quarantine on full display. I’m growing weary of how certain biblical texts are attached to certain political movements and demonstrations—texts that are, quite frankly, misused and misunderstood. Sadly, Christianity ends up getting misrepresented in the process.

“…most Christians are only familiar with those texts that talk about the “mark of the beast” (e.g., Rev 13:16-18) and not about those texts that talk about the “mark of the Lamb” (e.g., Rev. 14:1).


[Rev. 14:1 says: “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.”]


The pastor again:

“I know of no reputable biblical scholar or theologian who would endorse that the COVID-19 quarantine or a vaccine is related to the “mark of the beast”. For starters, in Revelation, the “mark of the beast” is by no means a medical procedure. Most likely, it’s not even a physical or visible mark at all. Contrary to some of the more fear-inducing theories that have in the past gained steam in some evangelical circles, the “mark” is not at all something that could be accidentally taken either.

“Why? Because the mark of the beast (Rev. 13:16-18) is a mark that is closely tied to the worship of the beast (13:12, 15; cf. 19:20; 20:4). Thus, the mark of the beast is a mark of loyalty and devotion to the beast.

“Much of this sensationalism not only reveals ignorance about the biblical text, not least with respect to its historical context,

“Even in our own lifetimes, for example, the “mark” was first attached to social security numbers, then to credit cards. Now, apparently, certain interpretations of the COVID-19 quarantine are making their own contributions to evangelical lore.

“…when you read Rev. 7:1-8 and 14:1 (where the mark of the Lamb is discussed), you’ll notice it is a mark given to God’s people, God’s servants, in order to identify them as such and, of course, to protect them. They get the mark of the Lamb because they are already united with the Lamb.

“It seems pretty evident that all of this is the case because these two marks—the mark of the beast and the mark of the Lamb—are meant to be seen as two polar realities, two opposite signs, marking out as it were two different types of people, namely, the wicked on the one hand and the righteous on the other.

“…you don’t need to fear getting the beast’s mark by taking a vaccine…”



As an aside, I found this an interesting opinion by him:

“Popular interpretations of “Revelation” are often forgetful (negligent?) of the fact that this book is “The revelation of Jesus Christ” (Rev. 1:1). Many people (not least on social media) treat it as if it were the revelation of the dragon and his wrath. The sillier teachers of eschatology focus so much of their attention on endless speculations concerning the Antichrist, the “mark of the beast,” etc., that I truly wonder if they think Revelation is primarily about revealing the satanic.

“Two things to say about this: (1) Such assumptions about Revelation treat Satan as the star of end-times speculations, breeding, once again, unnecessary fear in good folks. And (2), such views are simply wrong: Neither the dragon nor the beast are the stars of the show; thus, they shouldn’t be the focus of our obsessions.”

Yeah, I agree - that's how I learned it from the mainstream folks. I agree that putting too much emphasis on the Satan side is quite peculiar.

I heard enough about End Times with the JWs to last me more than one lifetime. I haven’t thought about it all for a long time and don’t recall any more with crystal clarity all the religious ideas I have “studied” with various groups (including Mormons, whose “discussions” were decidedly not revelatory). However, the deep recesses of my mind have been churning recently with all this talk, covered by news media, of the mark of the beast as a reason not to be vaccinated for COVID-19. I thought I was the confused one about Revelation etc but now, reminded by this pastor and other info I’ve looked up, I see more clearly that it’s the ones with the loudest anti- voices who are mixed up when they go on and on and on about the vaccine being the mark of the beast.

I know it’s easy to get confused about religious ideas and interpretations, even if you’re a person of faith, but this is a new level of confusion, in my experience.

First, for me, is the obvious fact (it’s obvious, isn’t it?) that the scriptures in Revelation are symbolic. At best? Aren’t they? So why are so many people scrabbling around trying to avoid a real life proven medical technique such as vaccination that we’re all accustomed to since birth, when the alternative is to roll the dice on getting infected with a potentially deadly virus?

Maybe it’s just me but I’ve always kept my religion and my medicine in different realms. I guess that’s just another reason, to people like this, to claim that I’m a pretty lousy Christian. I can live with that. Literally. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2021 05:57PM by Nightingale.

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