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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: October 03, 2021 04:45PM


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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: October 03, 2021 04:57PM

Obsessing over anything reprograms the brain. The brain is programmable. This has been well understood by tyrants for a long time. It’s why they focus on the children and want to have full control over them. It’s why they are fond of saying they will control the next generation and when they have that, they have everything.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: October 03, 2021 07:58PM

Quite true. I've been watching the PBS series Line of Separation about a small East German town that at the end of WWII had the bad luck to be on the new borders drawn up that left half of the town under the American control and the other half under Soviet control. As the season progresses, one particular woman who decided she fervently believed in Communism and therefore chose to live on the Soviet side, over time, began to suffer personally from how Communism played out in her town. Only after losing nearly everything, did she begin to question her ideology.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: October 03, 2021 06:13PM

From the article:

"...religious fundamentalism—which refers to the belief in the absolute authority of a religious text or leaders—is almost never good for an individual. This is primarily because fundamentalism discourages any logical reasoning or scientific evidence that challenges its scripture, making it inherently maladaptive."

In my experience, this is a good explanation of what occurs when a person has completely accepted the teachings of a particular group to the point that the beliefs function as total thought-stoppers.

Eg: JWs accept the teaching against accepting blood transfusions, even in dire emergencies. They also avoid eating foods that may contain blood, i.e. depending on methods used to slaughter animals. The principles are frequently repeated and followers are taught to make up their minds ahead of time so that if certain situations arise they have already made their choices. Therefore, you see JWs who have been in accidents or who have certain conditions who are prescribed transfusions and their automatic, unthinking response is NO. It is difficult in an emergency situation to reason with a person who has already made up their mind that no matter what they won't disregard that teaching. There's no discussion at that time and no reasoning happening - they're already committed.

That's how that works.

I remember as a teen, before joining the JWs, the news story about a woman who had an accident on a ride at a local festival. She was hemorrhaging and was rushed to the nearest hospital. She needed a transfusion but refused it as she was a JW. From the details it was evident that a transfusion could have saved her life. A display of "faith" like that can reinforce the power of the faith of other people. Self-fulfilling prophecy. It's quite appalling to me now to think of a person losing their life over the way a certain group interprets an obscure scripture. And awful that situations like that are used as object lessons for how to live your faith. While all non-JWs shake their heads at such a spectacle, most JWs see it as an example of great and laudable faith.



"...fundamentalist ideologies can be thought of as mental parasites. A parasite does not usually kill the host it inhabits, as it is critically dependent on it for survival. Instead, it feeds off it and changes its behavior in ways that benefit its own existence. By understanding how fundamentalist ideologies function and are represented in the brain using this analogy, we can begin to understand how to inoculate against them, and potentially, how to rehabilitate someone who has undergone ideological brainwashing—in other words, a reduction in one's ability to think critically or independently."

The son of a woman I know is into Scientology. He was extremely dismissive about our public health mandates. Someone who knows nothing about health care who thinks he knows better than all the medical experts. But when his job made it mandatory to be vaccinated he was first in line. Because why give up an excellent salary and a fun job. So he made the right choice but not without bleating on about the incompetence of public health, both before and after getting the vaccine that may save his life.


"...an ideology—such as a religion—that causes its inhabitants to practice its rituals and communicate its beliefs will be transmitted to others."

Yeah. One of the main purposes of the religions I've been drawn to. Can't say I miss that aspect.


"...there are harmful variants of Islam and Christianity—specifically the rigid fundamentalist versions— that cause the host mind to process information in a biased way, think irrationally, and become delusional."

It can be difficult to promote the non-harmful variants in the face of the harmful ones. :)



"...Christian fundamentalism is a parasitic ideology that inserts itself into brains, commanding individuals to act and think in a certain way—a rigid way that is intolerant to competing ideas. We know that religious fundamentalism is strongly correlated with what psychologists and neuroscientists call "magical thinking," which refers to making connections between actions and events when no such connections exist in reality. Without magical thinking, the religion can't survive, nor can it replicate itself. Another cognitive impairment we see in those with extreme religious views is a greater reliance on intuitive rather than reflective or analytic thought, which frequently leads to incorrect assumptions since intuition is often deceiving or overly simplistic."

Of course, such groups will deny that this description applies to them. The group-think result of this type of indoctrination explains well how and why people in certain religions think and act the way they do.


"We also know that in the United States, Christian fundamentalism is linked to science denial. Since science is nothing more than a method of determining truth using empirical measurement and hypothesis testing, denial of science equates to the denial of objective truth and tangible evidence. In other words, the denial of reality. Not only does fundamentalism promote delusional thinking, it also discourages followers from exposing themselves to any different ideas, which acts to protect the delusions that are essential to the ideology."

I understand this better now as it's on full display since COVID-19 arrived. It hasn't been my experience in mainstream Christian groups that science or medicine are not trusted or are even denied so it has all come as quite a surprise to me. I'm disappointed. Because I like my Christians rational. :)


"When a fundamentalist ideology inhabits a host brain, the organism's mind is no longer fully in control. The ideology is controlling its behavior and reasoning processes to propagate itself and sustain its survival. This analogy should inform how we approach efforts that attempt to reverse brainwashing and restore cognitive function in areas like analytic reasoning and problem-solving."

This is why I think it's worth trying to avoid confrontation with someone who believes this way and instead try to calmly reason with them, as objectively as possible. As long as the interaction comes across as a battle of equally competing ideas, especially ones that clash with their firmly held beliefs, no minds will open far enough to see the possibility of a different idea or reality.

I heard a vax nurse today say that she has found that treating people with kindness in the way she answers their queries and even objections is an antidote to misinformation and anxiety. Good to know. Seems like it's worth trying rather than going straight to the battle.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2021 06:18PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: October 03, 2021 07:54PM

Thank you for your excellent analysis and your thoughts, Nighty!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: October 04, 2021 02:21PM

Any time, D.E. :)

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: October 04, 2021 01:52PM

I am glad you only found it "interesting;" and not scientific, or true! This kind of memetic theory has been dead for decades, and the link only shows just how out of touch this "neuroscientist' is.

https://direct.mit.edu/posc/article/28/4/542/97502/Why-Did-Memetics-Fail-Comparative-Case-Study1

Why Did Memetics Fail? Comparative Case Study1 | Perspectives on Science | MIT Press

“Approximately 40 years after the intellectual onset of GCCE [Gene Culture Coevolution Theory] and memetics, it could be concluded that memetics is the approach that failed whereas GCCE is generally accepted among many evolutionary scientists. The development of a memetic framework was followed by many logical, theoretical, and empirical objections (Atran 2001; Bloch 2000; Boyd and Richerson 2000; Coyne 1999; Kundt 2015; Kuper 2000; Sperber 2000; Uhlíř and Stella 2012), but there are also more objective indicators of memetics failure. First, currently only two well-known scholars could be identified as active memeticists (Blackmore 2016; Dennett 2017). Also, Edmonds (2005) shows that between 1986 and 2004, only 41 articles used the word “memetics” indexed in the database Web of Science. Second, memeticists themselves have realized that memetics is no longer considered a serious scientific theory.”

But, what the heck--its anti religion. So, let's just set aside facts, logic and reason and go with it.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: October 04, 2021 02:05PM

I welcome your input on the subject. I'd like to know more about the subject in lay terms. I'm not interested in setting aside facts, logic or reason. A little less snark would be a lot more helpful.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: October 04, 2021 03:57PM

Sorry about the snark. For some reason RfM brings out the 'snarkiness' in me. Here are some additional comments:

First, Richard Dawkins first raised the "meme" theory as part of his 1976 book, The Selfish Gene. Essentially, it was an attempt to introduce evolutionary theory into psychology, and particularly social psychology. For a time, "memetics" became somewhat popular, helped by Susan Blackmore's 1999 book, "The Meme Machine" with forward by . . . who else, Richard Dawkins. In his books, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, and Consciousness Explained, Daniel Dennett ran with the meme program, and attempted to connect it with consciousness and neuroscience (the brain). Since then, this trio--Dawkins, Dennett, and Blackmore, have been essentially the sole champions of memetics. Notwithstanding, by now all three have backed off their original enthusiasm expounding the relationship between memes and genes.

The idea was that just as genes were "replicators" and thus units of natural selection in biology, "memes" were replicators, and units of selection in culture. The theory took off for a while, but eventually pretty much everyone realized that "memes" were too poorly defined to be identified as a replicator (among other problems); and thus the evolutionary program broke down completely. In the late 1990s and early 2000s, you could still find references to "memes" in the literature of social psychology, but they are all but gone now. Perhaps the most famous book on Evolutionary Psychology is the 1992 book by Barkow, Cosmides and Tooby, The Adapted Mind: Evolutionary Psychology and the Generation of Culture. "Memes" are not even mentioned at all, and this was in 1992!

What about memes with respect to religion? Well, Pascal Boyer in his 2001 book, Religion Explained, used the meme approach. And, of course, Dawkins' 2006 book The God Delusion, and Dennett's 2006, Breaking the Spell, both use watered-down versions of memetics. None of these books have the slightest merit as an explanation or understanding of religion (IMHO). And the use of bogus memetics makes them worse, not better.

Sometimes, it seems that memes are now disassociated with evolution and merely reference "ideas" or complex ideas that are passed on in culture, without direct evolutionary significance. But in my opinion, even this use is very misleading. Although it is true that religious ideas spread and thrive by their repetition, including indoctrination, this is a trivial point because all ideas spread in culture in that way. As such, if you want to criticize religious ideas (or any other ideas), fine, but labeling them "parasitic memes" is nothing more than a transparent and rhetorical value judgment, without philosophical or scientific significance. It has nothing to do with evolution of ideas, or the workings of the brain that is distinguishable from ideas generally. In short, it may be unfortunate that fundamentalist religion thrives, but it has nothing to do with biological evolution or evolutionary psychology. The same is true for the recent more expanded adoption of atheism. All such social dynamics are the result of complex social factors impinging on individual worldviews in complex ways.

Finally, here is a rather long quote that explains the problem with memes by philosopher of science, William C. Whimsatt:

"In biology, the genetics is straightforwardly combinatorial and relatively accessible, has a stable architecture through successive generations, and is traditionally (though increasingly problematically) treated as inherited through a single channel--the germ line. . . ."

"But for culture, the glass is reversed: (1) despite the common talk of "memes" there is no intra- or inter-organizational Mendelism for ideas, practices, norms, or any other of our artifacts, and (2) there is no "memome" : (a) no bolus of significant ideas transmitted at the start of life, and (b) no standard size and (c) no form for the cultural "memotype," and (d) no standard "memetic" units. (3) The means of transmission for memes are varied and baroque, involving multiple complementary and conflicting channels, which (4) are acquired and act sequentially throughout the development and life span of the individual. Moreover, unlike the biological case, (5) the transmission channels used for a given idea can change from on generation to the next. Worse still, (6) acquisition of specific ideas or practices modulate later receptivity to others, so (7) heredity and selection are interwoven throughout the periods of development and learning -- that is for humans, throughout virtually all of the life cycle."

In other words, the concept of "memes" has no value in any explanation of culture, including religious culture. I would quickly add that attempts to tie memes to neuroscience is of no help whatsoever because of the obvious disconnect between some particular neurological event in some random person, and the conscious idea, belief, or practice, that might arise or be affected by such an event. Moreover, even assuming a neurological event can be seen to correspond to some, say, religious belief, there is no objectivity that the same event--whatever that might mean--corresponds to a similar belief in someone else. Beliefs, religious or otherwise, simply cannot be objectively grounded in either 'memes' or neurological events. As such, beliefs across culture--including religious beliefs--cannot be so explained.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: October 04, 2021 04:31PM

Thank-you for explaining these concepts a bit further. I appreciate you breaking it down for me.

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: October 04, 2021 04:56PM

I must agree with Bemis (I know! I am shocked as well!). But Dawkins retracted the "meme" concept. Dennett and Blackmore are Philosophers of consciousness and cognition, not neuro-scientists. Memes are not equivalent to genes.

HH =)

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Posted by: Josephs Myth ( )
Date: October 04, 2021 05:55PM

Happy_Heretic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I must agree with Bemis (I know! I am shocked as
> well!). But Dawkins retracted the "meme" concept.
> Dennett and Blackmore are Philosophers of
> consciousness and cognition, not neuro-scientists.
> Memes are not equivalent to genes.
>
> HH =)


Do you maybe still remember that littlest of memes uncle Jo Smith lived to love, kind of Irishman tradition in finding gold at the closest rainbow!

Still, just about everyone pushing around everything from "The Sky Is Falling" back then to nearly any other convenient superstition they might be able to recall and get their hands on appears to sufficient and just about "good enough" to sell to the uneducated and unlearned.
You were once unlearned, and unfortunately probably still are..

Watch "The Second Great Awakening - part 2" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/n_ZyBwiV-Vs


Whatch out,, maybe the mind altering microbiology got some of em! https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/disandpath/fungalasco/pdlessons/Pages/Ergot.aspx&ved=2ahUKEwiCs5qwxrHzAhWPVc0KHdBJAlwQFnoECDAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1NhYbSIGYfo6cwYSDvLlBc

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