Whether or not you were an active church member, did you have a favorite GA?

I actually admired (the only likable one in my opinion), J Golden Kimball. He was down to earth, funny, and boldly spoke his mind, which often made the other GA’s uncomfortable. He was nicknamed “The Swearing Apostle”, even though he wasn’t an “apostle”.

I have a couple of books about J Golden Kimball stories, written by James Kimball, his nephew.

One of the stories is titled:” Periodic Prodigals”. It is about a conference that was held in Fillmore, Utah for the youth in the area. A lot of GA’s were in attendance.

One by one, they got up to the podium and berated the youth for their sins and insolence. After each one spoke, they would take a seat in the front row.

J Golden was the final speaker. He got up and said:” Brothers and Sisters: you don’t need to worry about these young people, they’ll take care of themselves. It’s these old, bald-headed bastards in the front row you want to look out for.” Everyone burst out in loud laughter!

Priceless!

My favorite is Apostle Richard Roswell Lyman, 1870 - 1963.

He kept a bird in the hand and a bird in the bush!

>>>>My favorite is Apostle Richard Roswell Lyman, 1870 - 1963.

He kept a bird in the hand and a bird in the bush!<<<

This is a very curious case of underground polygamy.

Richard Lyman had a second wife for many, many, many years until his fellow apostles saw fit to ex him. Surely at least some of his cohorts knew about wife number 2 for a long, long time.

Lyman's first (and only legitimate) wife was a bigwig in the Relief Society where she was well thought of. Surely she too knew of Wife Number 2.

But see polygamy was a big big deal in Mormon theology. You couldn't start your own celestial kingdom without at least three wives. Polygamy wasn't just a way to provide women with husbands when their previous husbands had been killed by antiMormon persecutors. It was the very centerpiece of the LDS religion.

So if people suspected Richard of carrying on with two wives, maybe they thought best to look the other way.

So what was the REAL reason he was ex'd?

And what became of Richard, Amy (Relief Society bigwig and first wife) and wife number 2 after Richard gets ex'd?

Just wondering.

I just looked up Richard Lyman on Wikipedia.


According to what I read there, both Lyman and his wife were in their 70s when they got ex'd.

GOOD GRIEF. Anybody ever hear the phrase "let sleeping dogs lie."

Later he was reinstated into the LDS church, but what became of wife number two is not discussed.

loislane Wrote:
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> . . . what became of wife number two is not discussed.

That's because the scriptures are clear that she is destined for celestial glory with her husband and sister wife.

What's the church to do? Admit that or deny it?

Favorite would be Hugh B. Brown. Relatable. Taught a version of Mormonism that was more liberal, more about community and love. Unfortunately, he was up against the likes of an group of hard liners - Ezra Benson, Joseph Fielding Smith, McConkie, and Packer. The hard liners won out and the cult is still dealing with effects of that down to the present day.

J. Golden has a book full of funny anecdotes. One that I remember was a member chastising him for drinking coffee saying "I would sooner commit adultery than drink coffee", to which Kimball replied, "hell, who wouldn't?"

You can bet your ass that nobody like Kimball would even become a stake president today much less a GA. The way to move up the hierarchy is to be an empty suit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2021 02:56PM by Strength in the Loins.

I'm Hugh's great grandson. So he had strength enough in his loins.

My father has a picture of Brown meeting with groups of airmen in England during WWII. My father and some of his LDS friends set up a group of LDS airmen in Cambridge area and Brown visited with them. I'm pretty sure at least three of the guys in photo including my dad were gay (I've met them). Must have been tough being a gay mormon in the US Army Air Corps.

It has been tough to be gay for most of human recorded history anywhere in the world I think. Agrarian, warlike, male-dominated patriarchies ruling the world.

In some places in the ancient world it was acceptable punishment to rape subordinate men who didn't do what authorities wanted to make them detested by all.

Can't say I liked or disliked him but I feel particularly sorry for B.H Roberts. I think he found out the truth wasn't the truth and was truly hurt. He was discounted, ignored and even banished on a mission. I believe his latter years were truly miserable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2021 03:05PM by lisadee.

As a youngster I considered Paul H. Dunn to be my favorite. I mean, what great life experiences he had and what a great speaker he was.
Now with the benefit of hindsight and learning about his exaggerations and lies he appears to me like a good example of the whole Mormon experience.

The only likable ones are the ones who are buried and have had people piss on their graves.

The more I learn about them, their attitudes, the less respect I have for them. I think 98% of all GAs are rotten to the core and should rot in hell forever.

Probably not Holland

I liked Holland when I was at BYU and he ran the place. I worked in the administration building and would run into him. He was always friendly and you could tell he loved his job.

Who I see now is a different man. He seems so miserable and angry. His face is so floppy and saggy looking. His eyes look demented. He was a happy guy at BYU.

I always admired Packer. Willing to come right out and say what's wrong and why that is. Even though I didn't agree with everything. There's something about renegade honesty, he was genuine, an outlier. Perhaps it's the lost cause persona, the attitudes of folks who believe in liberty like John Wayne, Lee, Jackson, William Wallace, and others. Think of it He had 10,000 so called agitators lie down in the street at temple square because they were supposedly offended by him. What other guy could stimulate such a frenzied show of traumatized outrage, and hurt feelings?

macaRomney Wrote:
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> I always admired Packer. . . There's something
> about renegade honesty, he was genuine, an
> outlier.

What did Packer say that was more honest than what the other apostles were saying?


-------------
> Perhaps it's the lost cause persona, the
> attitudes of folks who believe in liberty like
> John Wayne, Lee, Jackson, William Wallace, and
> others.

John Wayne was an actor. You are saying that an actor believed in liberty. William Wallace is also a product of your viewing history since "freedom" was Mel Gibson's line and there is no evidence that Wallace shouted that. So you are basing your world view on Hollywood characters.

And by "Lee," do you mean Robert E. Lee? If so, how do you reckon he was an advocate of "liberty" given that he fought a war to preserve slavery? The only way you can see someone like that as embodying the quest for freedom is if you view African-Americans as lesser beings whose enslavement doesn't ultimately matter.

Is that your view?


-------------------------
> Think of it He had 10,000 so called
> agitators lie down in the street at temple square
> because they were supposedly offended by him.

You must have loved Hitler, Stalin and Mao. They made many millions of offended people lie down.


---------------
> What
> other guy could stimulate such a frenzied show of
> traumatized outrage, and hurt feelings?

Uh, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao for starters.


----------------
Do you think that it's perhaps time to put down the remote, take your eyes off of Mel Gibson, and turn to other sources of information?

Fanboy for abusers of others.

Actually Robert E Lee was against slavery. He fought the union because it invaded Virginia. Lee was offered command of the union army by Lincoln but refused because he refused to fight against his home state.

People fought in the civil war for many reasons. It was not as cut and dry as a war for or against slavery.

First, your characterization of Lee is wrong. He occasionally said that he was opposed to slavery but before the war he chased down his deceased FIL's slaves and ensured they remained enslaved. And during the war he let his officers kidnap freed slaves and sell them back into bondage. And even when he advocated emancipation, he said it should happen slowly--he spoke of millennia--and at the volition of Southern whites.

With friends like him. . .

Otherwise, you are incorrect about the South's motives. Lincoln ran on a platform of emancipation and the Confederacy took him at his word. That's evident in their representatives' statements in Congress and in the propaganda statements they used to roil the South and muster their army. The notion that the South was not inspirited by its determination to defend slavery is later revisionist history.



https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/lee-robert-e-and-slavery/

https://www.civilwarhome.com/leepierce.html

To add to the list of "Things Wrong with macaRomney's post," is the fact that, while John Wayne was pro-military and played the badass on screen, the guy was a poser. While there have been famous folks who served in the military (Elvis Presley, Tom Savini, Jimi Hendrix, Christopher Lee, Paul Newman, Rod Serling, Mel Brooks, and Jimmy Stewart to name just a few), John Wayne dodged the draft to keep making movies. Fucking chickenhawk.

Though it is appropriate to have Wayne mentioned in the same post as another deplorable loudmouth (Packer).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2021 04:41PM by ookami.

Neal A Maxwell was probably my favorite. He was a good friend of my parents. I played tennis with him a few times.

parley P.Pratt

Dieter's a very nice guy in person.

Yea. I've never heard Dieter say or do anything particularly odious. I hear he gets mobbed in public and puts up with it with good humor. He's extremely popular; handsome,foreign, airline pilot, etc.

But maybe I just haven't heard everything and he's a secret asshole. Some of these GA's are so polite and congenial in public and so awful in private. (according to stories I've heard hear or that have filtered into the mainstream news).

I don't think any one of us can claim to have heard everything, but where Dieter is concerned, I've been in a position to have heard a lot. He and his wife do live off the largesse of church members, but they're otherwise very decent people.

That seems consistent with his outward appearance and affect and personality and with what ‘insiders’ have said. Too bad his decency has not rubbed off on any of the other 12.

I have heard a lot of J. Golden Kimball stories and he seemed like a decent and funny guy. I would have liked to talk with BH Roberts and John Widtsoe, probably two of the most intelligent GAs ever.

I've met a few "Prophets" and several apostles. Of these the only one I really enjoyed meeting and talking with was LeGrand Richards, he seemed like a genuine, kind and funny man. Thomas Monson was a douche.

Favorite J. Golden quotes ...

"The secret to living a long life is to get a fatal disease and then just taking care of it."

How you feeling brother Kimball?
"I cant piss!"
Oh don't be so ...
"No, Hell I can't piss, damn prostate!"

Would you like some coffee Brother Golden?
"Water"
Are you sure ...we know you like good coffee.
"The Lord heard me say water".

Yes, LeGrand Richards….…entertaining speaker. I liked him as a kid.

LeGrand's daughter was in our ward. She was just like her dad.

I only ever met one...and he wasn't giving off any spirit vibe.

My daughter was helping with some disaster relief and I think it was Buzzard/Ballard who was making the rockstar appearance to cheer on the yellow shirt minion army. She shook hands with him or something. I asked her thoughts on the encounter and she shrugged her shoulders... "I don't know...Just another old guy there" was her reaction.

Nice

Probably Hugh B. Brown, who had very different opinions than many of the GA's.

Also, LeGrand Richards, who was interesting and goofy, and seemingly was without the guile that most GA's have. He also refused to submit talks ahead of time, and would not have followed them on the teleprompter, anyway. That made him unpredictable in a very nice way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2021 11:53AM by cludgie.

I've thought about this a lot. I really really really want to have a favorite but I don't. I just never liked them. I didn't even like my great grandfather Hugh Brown after reading about him.

The closest thing to liking one of them was watching Haight's I believe last conference talk and the word salad that it was. I thought, wow, there is some truth. People get old and I thought it was comically tragic.

Then my father started down well over a decade long mental decline to his death. The tragic became personal. Now I think it is just extremely cruel to make people be functional long after they aren't. My mother did that to my father. The church does that with billions of dollars to these old men.

Some extreme TBM's even go as far as to name their children after their favorite GA's or even their Dear Prophet.

My least favorite of all time is BKP. Der Fuhrer Bed-nard comes in at second.

Now for a favorite(s): Jacob de Jager, why? Who knows? Some will get a knee jerk out of this: BRM... I always viewed him as a humorless dick, however when Leonard Arrington was church historian (but not really they say), it was BRM who tried to keep BKP from ruining the guy's life. (I hope I am accurate concerning that.). Then, in the mythology of Mormonism, there was the case of Elder Holland. At the time JRH was president of real BYU. One day JRH had a birthday. As a gift, it appears the JRH hired a belly dancer to wish him Happy Birthday.

The nice lady parked on the opposite side of campus and made her way to the Wilkinson Center. Procuring a retinue of return missionaries to help her find her way. No indication the iron rod was discussed. There, in a meeting I believe, she danced those hips off for JRH.

About a half hour later, JHR's brother (an attorney in San Francisco), received a phone call from BRM. After introducing himself BRM asked, "Brother Holland, do you hate your brother?"

If that isn't humor, well...

The above was shared with me by BRM's cousin. Take it for what it is worth.

Jacob de Jäger was my parents bishop. Kind of a strange guy. I met him a few times.

Back when Holland was president of BYU, I really respected him.
Now, he is just an old worn out white guy who happens to be an "apostle" of a cult.

Jeff Holland was a different guy at BYU. He was happy then and really treated the students well. I don't know who the angry old apostle is. it's not the same Jeff Holland I met several times in college.

That is like asking molested children
Who is your favorite abuser?

There's an interesting dynamic here.

If people weren't Mormon and the question was who is your favorite older man, the answer might be a political leader, an artist, a local humanitarian, No one would name a GA.

But if you narrow the field by saying who is your favorite GA, people generally look toward the more liberal end of the spectrum and then feel warm and fuzzy about that person. Thus Brown or Uchdorf or someone like them becomes a rock star.

What has happened is that the form of the question has prejudiced the answer. In this case it causes normally reasonable people to embrace someone who is, viewed objectively, virtually indistinguishable from the rest of the bunch. Members so want to identify with an apostle or prophet that they convince themselves that their particular hero is warmhearted and empathetic.

My guess is EB presents an example of that phenomenon. People like me are inclined to view Hugh B. Brown as a liberal, loving, Christlike leader, someone who really cared about ordinary folks. But the facts as EB sees them--and which he probably knows better than anyone else on RfM--indicate that the reality differs from the image.

I'm glad that I, at this remove from the church, no longer have to give a damn about any of them. I think they are all jerks and that very little daylight separates any of them.

I think uniformity is a strict prerequisite to even being considered to be a general authority. Wong and Soares are outliers in ethnicity but I sincerely doubt they are in personality or even preferences or tastes.

Those who are in high positions of the church general authorities and mission presidents and stuff I don’t think are allowed to have different opinions than the majority there probably was a point in time where they were but I’m sure that’s been long gone for decades.

Agreed. And yet people persuade themselves that there are meaningful differences. . .

I think my mother is a better example. She is the cousin of an infamous murderer, from an alcoholic clan of nobodies no one cared about, and completely unremarkable except she was a beauty in her youth.

She thought her grandfather-in-law was a nice person who had a gang of mean, uppity, snotty people surrounding him in the way of his own family and friends.

This woman worships the church and would love to be considered royalty and in jaded because she never got that.

In summary, she hated the fact that such a nice guy was okay with all the crappy people around him. And I think this is the point. Even if a GA is a "nice guy" they support and even bolster a mean and corrupt system. So I think what you wrote is correct. Regardless of how "good" a GA is the system they are leading is too far removed from nice and good as to make these GAs bubbles of fresh air in a sea of sewage. They don't make much of a difference and their actions are probably more in line with the garbage than the dissolution of it.

It's like the Russian peasantry in the 19th century. They constantly told themselves that the Czar was a great man who loved them deeply. He was just deceived by evil ministers who prevented him from helping them. They needed to feel significant and that blinded them to the fact that the Czar and his ministers acted in unison.

Prefect analogy.

any favorite GA would be a past tense thought, back when I was a believer.
now, i don't care about any of them.
when i was a student at BYU, I remember it being popular to
name drop a GA if you knew someone who new someone who was a GA.
my favorite response to this name dropping would come from
Bob Clark, from Maryland at the time.
He would simply say, "SO.....?"

My one meeting was with Eldon Tanner of the First Presidency. He was related to my dad through marriage.

That "First Presidency" was huge I recently learned. Like 5 or 6 of them.

I met him at my aunt's (his SIL) funeral and he definitely got the rock star treatment. He was just another old geezer in the crowd to me.

LOL! Well, you met the founder of the 100 billion dollar Mormon Church. He I believe was fundamental in changing the old patriarchy of priesthood power into the new patriarchy of priesthood money and prestige.

They all had their moments. Here are 3 quotes.

Hinckley on TV being asked about men becoming Gods- "I don't know that we teach that."

Mark E Petersen "I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it."

Ezra Taft Benson in a letter to Pres Eisenhower regarding Rachel Carson who wrote Silent Spring. "because she was unmarried despite being physically attractive, she was probably a Communist"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2021 11:30AM by squirrely.

Didn't you know? All willfully single people are.

my favorite MORmON ASSpostHOLE was Gordon BS Hinckley who became PRofit