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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: October 13, 2021 03:26PM

Joseph smith Jr. allegedly spoke to identify himself as God?

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Posted by: Josephs Myth ( )
Date: October 13, 2021 03:53PM

Haa.. giant toss up so you'll have to pick from about three quirky moments, first was it when he went into the woods with "Black Jake" and got so high on an elixir (like his dad toyed with back in Maine) perhaps made with wine and mushrooms, or was it precisely after getting caught banging Alger's fanny by none other than Emma! "Noo no! I didn’t want to do it, he made me do it!"
Then, there was the convenience of baptizing himself. I don't even think Jesus had to be there in the Susquehanna that day.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 06:24AM

I wouldn't be too sure about the availability of shrooms at that time, but there were plenty of other psychoactive plants such as Datura, which is poisonous if the atropine in it is not neutralized. But it's been used by witches for ages. The ancient Greeks cooked up psychedelic brews of plants and wine. It's thought that the Elucinean Mystery School was based on this. The technology was closely guarded. Recreational use was strictly prohibited. I suspect that someone like Joseph Smith would never be allowed to partake.

That might explain how he achieved his spiritual insights and also why he was driven out of his mind.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: October 13, 2021 05:42PM

That would be when the two personages appeared and one pointed to the other and said "this is my beloved son, hear him." Per the bible, the beloved son's father is god.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: October 13, 2021 05:49PM

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That would be when the two personages appeared and
> one pointed to the other and said "this is my
> beloved son, hear him." Per the bible, the
> beloved son's father is god.
That would be a conclusion drawn from context
But I can say to you "Hey this is my son He is really sharp you should listen to what he has to say
That does not equate me claiming to be God!
My point is I believe that he made it all up out of fantasy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 05:51PM by thedesertrat1.

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: October 13, 2021 06:19PM

But your son isn't Jesus Christ.

Joseph claimed that two personages appeared to him, and one introduced Jesus as his son. That means the other person was God.

If you are introducing your son, who isn't Jesus Christ, as just a guy who is really sharp, there's no reason for anyone to assume you are Jesus' father, aka God.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: October 13, 2021 06:32PM

>> My point is I believe that he made it all up out of fantasy <<

Agreed, but I think there are better items to pick from to show its all made up.

So "god" didn't say "I'm god and this is Jesus". Big deal, one personage introduced the other with the bible definition of jesus, so it's inferred.

Lots of other things show its all made up which carry more weight than this one.

But hey, you got us thinking right!?

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 06:43AM

Sure, the story kept changing, the Smith family didn't move onto their farm until the year after the vision, and none of Joseph's contemporaries who allegedly persecuted him could remember him talking about a vision.

So as fun as it is to theorize that Joseph saw God while tripping balls, there are more likely explanations.

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: October 13, 2021 06:07PM

OPie is on to something here ~

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 02:03AM

Yes, Ziller, I've noticed that thedesertrat1 is generally on to something. He holds up what should have been a "Blinding Flash of The Obvious" from the get-go. He sees what's hiding in plain sight and absurdities we look past while we ransack deep doctrine for falsehoods.

He makes us slap our foreheads and say, "Well, yeah, what's up with that?"

I envy his type of intelligence.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 10:15AM

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, Ziller, I've noticed that thedesertrat1 is
> generally on to something. He holds up what
> should have been a "Blinding Flash of The Obvious"
> from the get-go. He sees what's hiding in plain
> sight and absurdities we look past while we
> ransack deep doctrine for falsehoods.
>
> He makes us slap our foreheads and say, "Well,
> yeah, what's up with that?"
>
> I envy his type of intelligence.
I thank you===Ithannk you===I thank you

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 09:16AM

I’m not sure what your point is here. Yes, the story is made up. Whether God made proper introductions or not doesn’t change that in the least.

Are you claiming that if the story had the line “I’m the Big Kahuna, and this is Jesus, so try to pay attention”, or words to that effect, then the story might be true?

I’m really not seeing the relevance.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 11:11AM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m really not seeing the relevance.

I'm not either but perhaps it has something to do with this.

https://www.amazon.com/Elohim-Anunnaki-Prince-Kerry-Barger/dp/B089TWPV4G

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 11:42AM

I think it’s relevant because did anyone question who in the hell was Joseph talking to anyway?

And then there’s the pyromania angel. Who was that guy?

And the one who showed up at his bed three times? Was that the neighbor?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2021 11:59AM by kathleen.

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Posted by: Shinehah ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 03:48PM

Good questions Kathleen.
By the way, claiming that an angel with a flaming sword made me do it has never worked for me. But then maybe Joseph was better at saying that with a straight face than I am.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 04:14PM

I have no problem with questioning who this supposed being is. However, if the being said "I am God", that still proves nothing whatsoever. The being could have been wrong/delusional/lying/fictional.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: October 18, 2021 12:12PM

Whoever he was got Joseph out of a lot of work that day.

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Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: October 15, 2021 04:44PM

The desertrat is correct. I have pointed that out before (that the one "personage" merely identified the other one as "my beloved son.") Joseph just assumed it was God who said that. It could just as well have been Satan. The devil can also appear as an "angel of light" (2 Cor 11:14).

JS did not apply the test of a false angel by offering to shake hands. (D&C 129)

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 18, 2021 12:06PM

Lol! He couldn't have known of the test because it hadn't been "revealed" to him yet.

It is stumbling into hell and assuming it is heaven because that is where you wanted to go.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: October 18, 2021 03:52PM

I think the "answer" to this is detailed on Mormonthink, here:

http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm

For those who don't want to read through the plentiful material behind the link, which is fascinating and clearly represents a lot of work, here is a relevant extract:

"Changing First Vision Accounts: Conclusion

Joseph did not tell a consistent story, but changed key elements over the years.

The date of the vision and his age varies - from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)
The reason or motive for seeking divine help changes - from (1) no motive (a spirit appears with the news of gold plates),(2) Bible reading and conviction of sins, (3) a revival, and (4)a desire to know if God existed.
Who appeared to him?–(1) a spirit, (2)an angel,(3) two angels,(4) Jesus, (5)many angels, and finally, (6) the Father and the Son.
Also common elements from early accounts raise questions about what appears to be a gradual evolution of Joseph Smith's first vision story. Did Joseph begin to include a "Christian experience" in the telling of his story because Bauder noticed it was lacking? The earliest accounts given to Chase and Harris do not include this.

There is a noticeable shift in the context of finding the gold plates, from a 17 year-old money-digger to a 14 year-old spiritual seeker. Is this an attempt to put his story into a more socially acceptable context? It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that as time went on, Joseph omitted uncomfortable but historically correct events, and then replaced them with fictitious elements in order to make his story more socially acceptable and spiritually compelling."

What say you, OP? ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2021 03:52PM by Soft Machine.

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