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Posted by: auntsukey ( )
Date: October 17, 2021 09:10PM

This is a fabulous evaluation of the church's role in sexual impropriety.

It's long but so worth the time to read it.


https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2020/09/lds-sexual-impropriety-and.html?fbclid=IwAR24BX6Fh2zVoLOHFU-69uV-pEsDfnOGctO4n68Yr0ZxBXCFXgAJ1f2YT6k

A short summary near the end of the article:

"To summarize, the socialization process that happens in the Church convinces the faithful

- at an early age, that they will difficulty avoiding sexual sin, the sin second only to murder, and stand in need of the Church to help them.

- that the source of morality is external to the individual; is sourced from God

-that morality is determined by reward and punishment

-that they need be dependent upon the Church in order to know what is virtuous and what is not

The existence of reward and punishment

-inhibit the internalization of moral values

-reduce intrinsic motivation to be virtuous or to avoid immorality

-increase the risk of acting contrary to rules when one perceives that they are not at risk of punishment

-lead individuals to perceive that if there are no consequences, there is little reason to avoid wrong actions"

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: October 18, 2021 06:40PM

If you look at Lawrence Kohlberg's Scale of Moral Development, Mormonism doesn't come in very high on the scale:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

"Kohlberg's six stages can be more generally grouped into three levels of two stages each: pre-conventional, conventional and post-conventional.[9][10][11] Following Piaget's constructivist requirements for a stage model, as described in his theory of cognitive development, it is extremely rare to regress in stages—to lose the use of higher stage abilities.[16][17] Stages cannot be skipped; each provides a new and necessary perspective, more comprehensive and differentiated than its predecessors but integrated with them.[16][17]


Kohlberg's Model of Moral Development


Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)

1. Obedience and punishment orientation
(How can I avoid punishment?)
2. Self-interest orientation
(What's in it for me?)
(Paying for a benefit)

Level 2 (Conventional)

3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
(Social norms)
(The good boy/girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
(Law and order morality)

Level 3 (Post-Conventional)

5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles
(Principled conscience)
The understanding gained in each stage is retained in later stages, but may be regarded by those in later stages as simplistic, lacking in sufficient attention to detail."


**At best,** Mormonism is constructed to be mid-level in terms of moral development. There is no training or expectation that Mormons can make complex, unique moral decisions. Instead, there is the expectation that one is to follow the guidance of the (rather unispired) Mormon leadership.

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Posted by: ~ufotofu~ ( )
Date: October 20, 2021 11:22AM

Interesting, summer-

The ldsC doesn't know morality
But rather likes to cite it
To claim the authority on it
To act like it knows it all

But, the Mormon 'church' instead Takes Your Morality (your privacy, personal matters, and sacred secrets...), and offers you condemnation - and usually damnation- in return... and uses that sacred, personal information AGAINST YOU.

If Mormons THOUGHT FOR THEMSELVES, had autonomy and sovereignty, privacy, and respect, they wouldn't need LDS's excuse for invasion of privacy and secret combinations called 'Mormon "morality"'.

I'm MUCH more moral - and have MUCH HIGHER morality - than I was as a Mormon youth... because I know what it is and how to recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Either Mormons is so low, or I am so high (or both) that we don't even see each other.

What a blessing. What a view. What joy!

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: October 19, 2021 03:44PM

At some point during our marriage I learned that my wife had no inherent sense of right or wrong. All she cared about was if she was "worthy." If she did (whatever) would she lose her temple recommend?

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Posted by: dogbloggernli ( )
Date: October 19, 2021 04:04PM

The premise seems to be based on some kind of objective morality which is assumed but not established.

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Posted by: srichardbellrock ( )
Date: October 19, 2021 05:25PM

There is no assumption of objective morality.

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Posted by: dogbloggernli ( )
Date: October 19, 2021 05:52PM

Then against what benchmark is morality developing

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 19, 2021 04:09PM

Trying to divorce the concept of morality from the religious institutions that have laid claim and have remodeled to their own liking, the idea of right and wrong is an impossible task. Would be easier to actually separate church and state.

The "reward and punishment" on your list caught my eye. Everything is reward and punishment. There really should be a Mormon Circus so they can all show off the tricks they've learned.

I hope some questioners read your list or the link. Very important considerations.

What grates the most once you are out is the way they think that only *they* have true morality and if you aren't religious you can't be moral. A lot of 'em anyways.

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Posted by: srichardbellrock ( )
Date: October 19, 2021 05:26PM

Thanks for sharing this.

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Posted by: ~ufotofu~ ( )
Date: October 19, 2021 10:53PM

That sounds JUST LIKE the Mormon 'church'.

IT IS the Mormon 'church'!

Bishop/ The Mormon church/ mormonism: There is a Bogeyman (stan/ "the Devil") out there [and mormonism is the only thing to save you] and it's going to get you [if you don't Pay the LDSC hit money ("tight-thing") EVERY WEEK, and mandatory weekly fear, guess and bore (sacrilegious) meeting, indentured servitude to TSCC, etc.]. They just don't say how they are one in the same. The Devil Is In The Details.

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Posted by: Twinker ( )
Date: October 19, 2021 11:59PM

My favorite guys (don't know any gals to ref.), on the subject of morality are Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, and Jonathan Haidt.

Their views on what constitutes morality seem to boil down to that which promotes universal well being. But that's not an easy "boil down".

Haidt's work is especially intriguing as he sets up imaginary moral dilemmas for people to grapple with. eg."Is it wrong to have sex with a chicken?" "Is it moral to sacrifice one life to save 5." "Is it wrong for a brother and a sister on birth control to have sex one time?" The "why/why not" here is more interesting than the scenarios.

What all of my guys would seem agree on is a general view that religion does not hold the definitive position on what is or is not moral.

Religion's most valid message on morality would be the varied but nearly universal configurations of "Treat others as you would want to be treated."

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: October 20, 2021 12:27AM

Twinker Wrote:
-----------------------------
>
> Religion's most valid message
> on morality would be the varied
> but nearly universal configurations
> of "Treat others as you would want
> to be treated."


Especially if you’re a chicken!

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Posted by: ~ufotofu~ ( )
Date: October 20, 2021 11:02AM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Twinker Wrote:
> -----------------------------
> >
> "Treat others as you would want to be treated."
>
>
> Especially if you’re a chicken!

All Mormons are chicken (afraid) [to cross the road... to get to the other side] (of crossing over) [without TSCC holding their hand].

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: October 21, 2021 12:33PM

The LDS church does not allow moral development beyond what they say is moral development. If you went for increased moral and ethical development beyond the LDS church, it would violate their obedience-based directions.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: October 21, 2021 01:17PM


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Posted by: ~ufotofu~ ( )
Date: October 22, 2021 12:05PM

True-

And is an abomination in the eyes of good!

Mormon "morality" is false, dogmatic, lacking, perverted, stigmatizing, manipulated, subjected, subversive, selfish, immoral, and very square and rigid, even ignorant and insufficient...

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: October 21, 2021 01:32PM

[Nevermo response]:

There was a time, in my late adolescence/early adulthood, when Kohlberg's wise perspectives basically saved my rational life.

I will always be grateful to him for his work.

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