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Posted by: BoydKKK ( )
Date: October 25, 2021 08:53PM

Then what is it?

Doed Rusty the Revelator have an answer to "what part actually happened"? Or is it like "as far as translated correctly"?

No answer to that one either.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: October 25, 2021 09:18PM

BoydKKK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then what is it?
>
> Or is it like "as far as
> translated correctly"?

Oh, that's good!

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Posted by: cheezus ( )
Date: October 26, 2021 05:10PM

As I channel or gospel whisper for Old Rusty.... What he says is that it is not a text book like someone could say that Anne Frank's diary is not a "historical textbook" for WWII. What I think is more damning is the Bednar comment that it is "not a book of history" but a book about the future. I would ask that prophet-in-waiting POS then what is it?

These two comments so close together seem coordinated like there is a greater spin in progress. It will still take a few more data points to see if they are trying to shed that there were actual people or if it was inspired. Lots of good threads on this subject. I wish we could have some good public question and answer sessions with these guys to pin them down on what they are saying and what I'm supposed to think form their comments.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: October 26, 2021 08:28PM

During my mission they had this big "inspired" program where we were to get contacts to start reading the BoM. "The Book of Mormon Is the Key to Conversion," the leaders insisted. (Never mind that just prior they insisted Fellowshipping Is the Key to Conversion, which had replaced the equally inspired Church Attendance Is the Key to Conversion.)

Because I was the troublesome type of missionary who tried to fit the marching orders into reality, I asked the MP, "How is this supposed to work when most of our contacts have extremely limited reading ability?" The MP was flustered because the inspired leaders hadn't been inspired that this might be the case. "Well... er... um... Just get the Book in their hands, share your testimony, and let the Holy Ghost do the rest."

So, going by this experience the BoM is sort of a magical talisman.

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Posted by: casey ( )
Date: November 08, 2021 05:16PM

hahaha... like the one Joseph wore. Maybe it would have helped if you made them a little primary talisman out of construction paper, crayons and yarn.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 26, 2021 08:56PM

The elephant in the room has become the thorn in their side.

Where's Martin Harris when you need him? Shame they can't hire him to lose the rest of the pages like he did with the first 116.

Fun to watch them squirm as they try to put out a fire with gasoline as they tell you what it is not. What it is not is worth reading.

They should just rename the book "Christ's Last Appearance--Final Chapter of Jesus Farewell World Tour". As told to Joseph Smith on his iStone.

Perhaps next they could tell everyone what Russ is not.

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Posted by: Godzilla ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 04:36AM

“The Istone” hahaha!
This reminds me of the time when the infamous picture of the infamous stone was in the news and in the ensign. I jokingly made the same comparison in social media saying it was the prophets IPhone and my former bishop gave it a like to my comment. Maybe he thought I was serious.

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Posted by: cheezus ( )
Date: October 26, 2021 10:06PM

If I had one of those machines to emboss the BoM, I would scratch off the "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" on the cover of a B0M and replace it with "Another Not History Book of Jesus Christ"

Or if I was semi-ambitious with PhototShop

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 10:18AM

Haha Love it. Very tempted to buy you a cover embosser.

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Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: October 26, 2021 10:21PM

Anybody who claims that the BoM is not a historical book is contradicting the Prophet himself, who wrote in the "Wentworth Letter:

"In this important and interesting book [the Book of Mormon] the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era."

Note: THE HISTORY OF ANCIENT AMERICA !

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 05:28AM

By saying the Book of Mormon isn’t a historical record is another way of saying it’s not the truth. It’s a book of fictional accounts. Maybe they will justify the Book of Mormon like they justify the Book of Abraham.

It’s just another inspired channeled book from Joseph Smith. It’s the inspired lessons to be learned more than if the content is actually reality or not.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 12:04PM

Thanks for that quote. I'm pretty sure I'm going to need it.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 05:22AM

If they were smart they would just slowly de-emphasize the Book of Mormon. Contradicting what previous prophets have said and what the opening preface of the book says only discredits the Book of Mormon and the current church leaders.

The reality is if the LDS Church wants to be a mainstream Christian church it’s going to have to leave it’s early teachings in the past. I would bring up the next generation on Christ, the Bible and doing charitable acts of kindness.

I would steer away from being the only true church and everything Joseph Smith and Brigham Young brought forth. You can’t have it all ways. You either toss the old ways and focus on the new ways or you stick with the old ways.

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 08:20AM

The BoM is supposed to be a second testament of Christ, the first being The New Testament. But since the people who testified of Christ's visit to the Americas never existed, it can't be a testament of Christ. I guess it's just a made up boring, babbling story.

I wonder if LDS Inc. reads RFM to come up with explanations of how to spin the BoM as not really a history? I think they are stumped. Maybe they should just shut up about it and stand by the BoM being an actual history of an ancient people who traveled to the Americas in 600 BC. Just go with "it will work itself out in the next life" or Uchtdorf's "doubt your doubts" if there are any questions.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 10:24AM

If they are reading here for ideas, here's my two cents: For the BoM they have one strategy that can work. STFU

"No comment" "Mum's the Word" and the jewel of jewels would be to go Gordon's comment of "I don't know that we teach that" one better and just say, "I don't know what we teach."

Q."Is the BoM history?"

A. "Some say it is . . ."



You listening Wendy? You are their only hope you know.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: October 28, 2021 05:07PM

They could take the zen garden approach where everyone sees something different.

Oh the Book of Mormon. Yeah. Everyone sees what they want to see in it.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 12:21PM

Good point. They have a real problem fuzzing out the claim that Jesus visited the Americas. If He didn't, they have a lot of explaining to do about why they clearly have been teaching He did with the second testament of Jesus claims. To me, that is a big deal.

If the BoM is "about the future," then that implies Jesus did not come to the Americas yet. It better aligns with the "Jesus is coming back someday" claims of other Christians.

They really painted themselves in a corner with this one. It's a good thing they have built a Jell-O culture mentality.

It might take a generation, but Mormons will go along with re-purposing the BoM and let it go down the memory hole like most other religions do with their BS.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 11:58AM

Mormonism is slowly becoming more like Scientology every year.

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Posted by: cheezus ( )
Date: October 29, 2021 11:00AM

David McBedsavage

probably a lot of similarities with those two.... Bednar and McSavage.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 01:25PM

...all that matters is that a way is prepared for the errors in continuity to be agreeably 'swallowed'.

It's all about keeping the membership in the mood to swallow one Unfortunate incongruity after another. Don't most religions follow this pattern? Look at how many have survived 2nd Coming blunders!

"We can't explain it, but we can believe it!" is the rallying cry of any faith-based organization, or if you're in England, organisation...

Apparently, there's a 'state of being' in which the human mind can come across as quite functional, despite basing decisions and actions on data that meet all the criteria of being provably complete bull crap.

Yes, belief can Trump facts. "Evidence" just never learned to stick up for itself...

So among those to whom it really matters, for whatever peculiar reasons, faith-based ignorance will always exist. I think the Super-Ego is the easiest thing to blame...

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: October 28, 2021 05:10PM

I call it Group Unthink. You need a group of people so obsessed with doing what the whole group does they don’t think.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: October 28, 2021 05:16PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, belief can Trump facts.

Nicely done!

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 04:51PM

They could call them Mormon Franks.

This church business has gotten too complicated for them to sort out.

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Posted by: Mordor, not logged in ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 05:32PM

A collection of GA quotes on the BOM as historical record:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1840830,1841061#msg-1841061

Ivins' 1904 quote is one of my favorites, as he explicitly links Mesoamerican ruins to the BOM.

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Posted by: jazbo ( )
Date: October 28, 2021 10:44AM

Thank you for the link of references. Most interesting & helpful.

Does anyone remember the book, "Christ in America"? And didn't there used to be a picture in the old blue-covered, paper-backed Bofm, of Christ in America? Might be relics now. *wink*

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Posted by: Maca not logged in ( )
Date: October 27, 2021 07:23PM

What bothers me is that mormons were suppose to get the sealed portion by now, and the lost ten tribes bible tooo. What's the hold up? ... they've got the peepstones sitting in an old shoe box in the vault, nelson just ss to go over there and start using the magic hocus pocus...

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: October 28, 2021 05:14PM

Russ could bring forth the sealed portion of the BoM and hype it so hard that everyone forgets about the original. He could cook up some bullshit that the previous part is now going to be replaced by the sealed part because the members are now ready for the higher instruction.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 28, 2021 06:05PM

Yes that's what "ghost writers" are for---holy or not.

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: October 28, 2021 12:55AM


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Posted by: ~ufotofu~ ( )
Date: November 01, 2021 11:00AM


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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: November 01, 2021 11:32AM

Did anyone ever know someone who picked up a BoM and then decided that this was the greatest book ever written? And seek to be baptized into the church on the spot?

Stories like that were always being circulated in missions, the MTC and possibly church magazines.

I think they were always bunk and unfair to young people who believed that the church's gospel would sell itself, if you were righteous enough.

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Posted by: cheezus ( )
Date: November 01, 2021 11:53AM

Vincinzo di Franchesca or what ever the heck his name was....
You must burn di book.


I never felt that story was credible. A book with the word Mormon all throughout it, and he cannot figure the title out? He goes all over the world and religion is his business and he does not at least hear of the Mormon brand until WWII and he cannot get baptized? Nice puff propaganda piece, I guess.

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Posted by: Josephs Myth ( )
Date: November 01, 2021 11:41AM

(joking joking)

What's wrong with Ý-all, don't you wish to be a heritage Møŕmøń?

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: November 08, 2021 07:39PM

If it’s not historical fact then it’s fiction. Ok. So the word Mormon is a victory of Satan and the Book of Mormon is fiction.

So basically Dusty Rusty is saying the church is based on an evil fraud.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: November 09, 2021 12:41AM

All scripture is made up. Why does it matter that it's made up, if as Donald Hoffman points out, humans are completely incapable of perceiving reality?

If humans could perceive reality, they would be so blissed out they would be eaten by the first apex predator that came along.

To Joseph's credit, he created a functional mythology. He lied to do it, but lying was the only way to do it. I can accept that, but I doubt many Mormons could.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: November 09, 2021 02:12AM

Just for giggles...

I'm pretty sure they use the word 'textbook' bc for a textbook, one usually thinks of a school (college or other) book in a formal or semi-formal course of study...

They could have said straight-forward: It isn't accurate or true or historical, but they added a second qualifier.

Like saying: "It isn't a historical textbook on February 30th"...

'smart' but tricky as they most always are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2021 02:33AM by GNPE.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: November 09, 2021 06:07AM

Weasel words are for weasels.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: November 09, 2021 11:37AM

Well, the good news is that Laban never actually had his head chopped off--Nephi only metaphorically beheaded him.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: November 09, 2021 12:26PM

My facination is smostly with ancient cuneiform translations
Even if you mix in Z. Sitchen's interpolations into his translations they are more believable to me than Joe Jr.'s attempt at skullduggery.
And other transltors of cuneiform viz The Epic of Gilgamesh and The Enuma Elish are far better at it and should be given the opportunity to translate "
the gold plates"

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Posted by: ~ufotofu~ ( )
Date: November 09, 2021 09:09PM

Liars!

Growing up in mormonism: The Book of Mormon is a true and acurate... blah blah blah... historical record... blah blah blah... of the peoples of the Americas...

To the outside world/ non-mormons/ the public: Its not historical, not acurate, not true...

To MORMONS someday in the near future: WHAT BOOK?

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Posted by: Joseph's Myth ( )
Date: November 09, 2021 09:27PM

~ufotofu~ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Liars!
>
> Growing up in mormonism: The Book of Mormon is a
> true and acurate... blah blah blah... historical
> record... blah blah blah... of the peoples of the
> Americas...
>
> To the outside world/ non-mormons/ the public: Its
> not historical, not acurate, not true...
>
> To MORMONS someday in the near future: WHAT BOOK?

Convenient Coordination

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Posted by: ~ufotofu~ ( )
Date: November 09, 2021 09:42PM

I think the call it corelation
(Sounds like some kind of sex)

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Posted by: squirrely ( )
Date: November 12, 2021 05:08PM

Rod Melrdum and the other kooks ain't gonna like this. How you gonna make money from the Book of Mormon if-in-it-ain't real? Rod is now proposing that the River Sidon is the Mississippi. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/author/rodmeldrum/

I know a guy who was formerly mayor of Alpine Utah (Utah county kook land) that was funded to go to Baja Mex to see if they could find the narrow neck of land etc. All that effort down the tubes.

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Posted by: Joseph's Myth ( )
Date: November 12, 2021 05:42PM

squirrely Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rod Melrdum and the other kooks ain't gonna like
> this. How you gonna make money from the Book of
> Mormon if-in-it-ain't real? Rod is now proposing
> that the River Sidon is the Mississippi.
> https://bookofmormonevidence.org/author/rodmeldrum
> /
>
> I know a guy who was formerly mayor of Alpine Utah
> (Utah county kook land) that was funded to go to
> Baja Mex to see if they could find the narrow neck
> of land etc. All that effort down the tubes.

He almost had it but it was the people's disbelief that kept it concealed and hidden away. If only they had the proper amount of faith!

By the way, "Somewhat Historical Textbook" will do just fine, hehh..

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