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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Hello everyone, it’s been a while since I posted.
I’m sitting in seminary right now and we’re learning about angels. Like the ones with wings from heaven.
If anyone doesn’t know the cokeville miracle- a crazy dude with a bomb went into an elementary school in cokeville Wyoming and essentially bombed the school.
Somehow, the kids weren’t harmed when they should’ve all died. When asked by the cops, they said angels came down and protected them. It turns out that some of the angels were their dead relatives from family pictures.
How exactly do you explain this? This can’t be a giant placebo or trauma because they all experienced the same thing.
Things like these have lead me to believe not in Mormonism, but in a supreme being.
I’d love to hear everyone else’s thoughts
I’m sitting in seminary right now and we’re learning about angels. Like the ones with wings from heaven.
If anyone doesn’t know the cokeville miracle- a crazy dude with a bomb went into an elementary school in cokeville Wyoming and essentially bombed the school.
Somehow, the kids weren’t harmed when they should’ve all died. When asked by the cops, they said angels came down and protected them. It turns out that some of the angels were their dead relatives from family pictures.
How exactly do you explain this? This can’t be a giant placebo or trauma because they all experienced the same thing.
Things like these have lead me to believe not in Mormonism, but in a supreme being.
I’d love to hear everyone else’s thoughts
There's no telling what those children were or were not exposed to before the event as far as knowing relatives before they died or seeing pictures/videos of them. The parents might say "No, Sally never knew grandma Liz. She would have no idea what her grandma looked like." But there's no way for her to know that 100%. She might not remember the one time Sally saw a picture or met the woman.
There's priming, when adults search for explanation, talking to each other about their faith hypotheses, and getting overheard by their children. It poisons the well.
And if one kid says "this is what happened" other parents go to their children and ask biased and leading questions, getting them to admit to something because the kids just want to impress or get approval. Even horses can read our microexpressions to determine what answers we want. Look up Clever Hans.
Some parents could have coached their children deliberately to be a part of the spectacle. It happens.
The important thing is to keep asking questions. If you nail it down to "THIS IS ___" without proper evidence, you stop looking for it. "I don't know" allows you to continue asking questions looking at all possible evidence instead of simply rejecting anything that doesn't fit the desired explanation.
And there's so many questions regarding this such as "why?" Why would god or angels or dead relatives help these kids but not all the people and children who need help every day? I don't know. The more specific you get with the questions regarding a God's motives in regards to life saving miracles, the more menacing the figure of god seems. Like, he picks favorites, he tests and plays games, human life is expendable unless you can be used as a tool, etc.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2021 12:54PM by blackcoatsdaughter.
There's priming, when adults search for explanation, talking to each other about their faith hypotheses, and getting overheard by their children. It poisons the well.
And if one kid says "this is what happened" other parents go to their children and ask biased and leading questions, getting them to admit to something because the kids just want to impress or get approval. Even horses can read our microexpressions to determine what answers we want. Look up Clever Hans.
Some parents could have coached their children deliberately to be a part of the spectacle. It happens.
The important thing is to keep asking questions. If you nail it down to "THIS IS ___" without proper evidence, you stop looking for it. "I don't know" allows you to continue asking questions looking at all possible evidence instead of simply rejecting anything that doesn't fit the desired explanation.
And there's so many questions regarding this such as "why?" Why would god or angels or dead relatives help these kids but not all the people and children who need help every day? I don't know. The more specific you get with the questions regarding a God's motives in regards to life saving miracles, the more menacing the figure of god seems. Like, he picks favorites, he tests and plays games, human life is expendable unless you can be used as a tool, etc.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2021 12:54PM by blackcoatsdaughter.
>Somehow, the kids weren’t harmed when they should’ve all died
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cokeville_Elementary_School_hostage_crisis
"Returning to the scene, David shot his wife, then himself. All the hostages escaped, though 79 were later hospitalized with burns and injuries, the majority of which were severe"
"The jug of gasoline had a pinhole-sized leak on its bottom. This allowed gasoline to drip into the tuna fish cans, turning the aluminum-flour mixture into paste, unable to aerosolize.[5] The leaking gasoline's fumes prompted teachers to open the classroom windows, unknowingly creating vents for the impending explosion.
2 of the 3 blasting caps on the bomb failed to detonate; the wires to each tuna can had been reportedly cut. The blasting cap in the gasoline jug functioned properly, initiating the explosion.[7][5] The reason for the wire cuts are so far unexplained."
"When the bomb detonated, the majority of the explosive force was channeled through loose ceiling tiles into the roof, and open windows acting as vents. This significantly mitigated the explosive power of the bomb.[5]
"You could see that the roof tiles had been lifted out of their brackets. –– I don't think that they were planning—or David was planning on the ceiling tiles in the school. Because in the bus, everything was solid in the school bus. There was no give in the school bus. Well, with the window being open, with the ceiling tiles being able to lift up and down, I think that absorbed a lot of the explosion of the gasoline bottle."
— Rich Haskell, Certified Bomb Technician Rich Haskell on the 1986 Bombing of Cokeville Elementary School, WyoHistory.org"
"Aftermath
All told, 79 of the hostages suffered injuries, mostly second-degree burns, smoke inhalation, and other injuries from the exploding bomb.[10][2][3] The injured were triaged to several area hospitals in Wyoming and Idaho."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cokeville_Elementary_School_hostage_crisis
"Returning to the scene, David shot his wife, then himself. All the hostages escaped, though 79 were later hospitalized with burns and injuries, the majority of which were severe"
"The jug of gasoline had a pinhole-sized leak on its bottom. This allowed gasoline to drip into the tuna fish cans, turning the aluminum-flour mixture into paste, unable to aerosolize.[5] The leaking gasoline's fumes prompted teachers to open the classroom windows, unknowingly creating vents for the impending explosion.
2 of the 3 blasting caps on the bomb failed to detonate; the wires to each tuna can had been reportedly cut. The blasting cap in the gasoline jug functioned properly, initiating the explosion.[7][5] The reason for the wire cuts are so far unexplained."
"When the bomb detonated, the majority of the explosive force was channeled through loose ceiling tiles into the roof, and open windows acting as vents. This significantly mitigated the explosive power of the bomb.[5]
"You could see that the roof tiles had been lifted out of their brackets. –– I don't think that they were planning—or David was planning on the ceiling tiles in the school. Because in the bus, everything was solid in the school bus. There was no give in the school bus. Well, with the window being open, with the ceiling tiles being able to lift up and down, I think that absorbed a lot of the explosion of the gasoline bottle."
— Rich Haskell, Certified Bomb Technician Rich Haskell on the 1986 Bombing of Cokeville Elementary School, WyoHistory.org"
"Aftermath
All told, 79 of the hostages suffered injuries, mostly second-degree burns, smoke inhalation, and other injuries from the exploding bomb.[10][2][3] The injured were triaged to several area hospitals in Wyoming and Idaho."
Gasoline needs to be atomized and compressed to explode. The gasoline probably just burned at a high rate of combustion since a blasting cap would atomize it to a certain degree and having the windows open vented the air in the room. Burns would be the biggest injury but the flames probably went up into the ceiling area.
What makes bombs more deadly is shrapnel. Bomb builders who know what they are doing will put the explosives in something that will fragment and throw a shower of metal fragments.
I was in a building that got bombed and the bomb did throw shrapnel but it exploded in an empty hallway and the walls were cinderblock and nothing penetrated.
Someone tried to kill Hitler with a briefcase bomb. The bomb was placed on the other side of a vehicle support of a big conference table. The bomb shredded Hitler’s pant leg but the table saved Hitler’s life. Sturdy German furniture saved him. So explosions and bombs in rooms and buildings don’t necessarily kill people when they go off.
What makes bombs more deadly is shrapnel. Bomb builders who know what they are doing will put the explosives in something that will fragment and throw a shower of metal fragments.
I was in a building that got bombed and the bomb did throw shrapnel but it exploded in an empty hallway and the walls were cinderblock and nothing penetrated.
Someone tried to kill Hitler with a briefcase bomb. The bomb was placed on the other side of a vehicle support of a big conference table. The bomb shredded Hitler’s pant leg but the table saved Hitler’s life. Sturdy German furniture saved him. So explosions and bombs in rooms and buildings don’t necessarily kill people when they go off.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/did-quick-thinking-taxi-driver-prevent-mass-casualty-even-in-liverpool-blast
Liverpool may have had taxi driver angel.
Liverpool may have had taxi driver angel.
Caution: Actual Video Of Explosion
Joseph's Myth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/did-quick-thinking-t
> axi-driver-prevent-mass-casualty-even-in-liverpool
> -blast
>
> Liverpool may have had taxi driver angel.
The neon vested staff worker seems stunned while maybe thinking to himself,
"Dang! Those new airbag deployments are even more defective than the old ones!!"
https://youtu.be/68DKKEKeRzk
(scratchy Taylor Swift song perfect in CCTV background 'I Knew You Were Trouble')
Joseph's Myth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/did-quick-thinking-t
> axi-driver-prevent-mass-casualty-even-in-liverpool
> -blast
>
> Liverpool may have had taxi driver angel.
The neon vested staff worker seems stunned while maybe thinking to himself,
"Dang! Those new airbag deployments are even more defective than the old ones!!"
https://youtu.be/68DKKEKeRzk
(scratchy Taylor Swift song perfect in CCTV background 'I Knew You Were Trouble')
Thank Gawd there was not enough air inside that subcompact tiny enclosure to help the bomber's non-aspirated flammable gasoline liquid mixture gain the actual needed space it requires, to become properly activated.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_MOAB
Giant MOAB sometimes misnamed (NotDaisyCutter)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Aerial_Footage_of_MOAB_Bomb_Striking_Cave%2C_Tunnel_System.webm
video
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_MOAB
Giant MOAB sometimes misnamed (NotDaisyCutter)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Aerial_Footage_of_MOAB_Bomb_Striking_Cave%2C_Tunnel_System.webm
video
Latest Report:
Even the bomber (terrorist) was thought to maybe immediately be in need of help, initially.
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/witnesses-liverpool-bomb-attack-describe-000111603.html
Even the bomber (terrorist) was thought to maybe immediately be in need of help, initially.
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/witnesses-liverpool-bomb-attack-describe-000111603.html
There are gobs of stories like this as part of urban legends. This is a variation of all kinds of events where people had a "mysterious" thing happen. It's like when someone lives after the doctor told them they should have died from an injury or illness. The odds are, some live. The patient gets to feel special. Sometimes the bombs kill people and sometimes they don't.
So what did the angels do? Did they somehow break the laws of physics with their magic molecular structure so they could catch the bombs or stop bomb debris? So, people killed from other bombs didn't have special angels that cared enough?
Once something is suggested, groups of people will believe it and make claims after the fact. They wanted to feel special. "Billy, did the angel look like this picture?" is a sure question the child will answer the way the believing adult will reward.
Mormons in the past have taught that angels don't have wings. Did your seminary teacher say they did? Either way, think of anatomy of animals. The wings are a variation of the arm appendages that evolved differently for different animals. For angels to have both arms and wings is a problem (let alone the flying around partially invisible BS).
If people believe the first vision type of crap, of course they are going to swallow angel lore.
So what did the angels do? Did they somehow break the laws of physics with their magic molecular structure so they could catch the bombs or stop bomb debris? So, people killed from other bombs didn't have special angels that cared enough?
Once something is suggested, groups of people will believe it and make claims after the fact. They wanted to feel special. "Billy, did the angel look like this picture?" is a sure question the child will answer the way the believing adult will reward.
Mormons in the past have taught that angels don't have wings. Did your seminary teacher say they did? Either way, think of anatomy of animals. The wings are a variation of the arm appendages that evolved differently for different animals. For angels to have both arms and wings is a problem (let alone the flying around partially invisible BS).
If people believe the first vision type of crap, of course they are going to swallow angel lore.
hujo Wrote:
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> I’d love to hear everyone else’s thoughts
You should go on a mission.
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> I’d love to hear everyone else’s thoughts
You should go on a mission.
"Things like these have lead me to believe not in Mormonism, but in a supreme being."
Then you can be protected by angels.
Then you can be protected by angels.
> Somehow, the kids weren’t harmed when they should’ve all died.
Critical thinking 101: what evidence is there that that statement is actually true? Did an ATF report on the bombing state that the investigators do not understand why the students weren’t killed?
This is totally stereotypical “faith-promoting” story, no different from claiming that Brother Rasmussen survived the car crash because he was wearing his temple garments. Had he died, nobody would say it was because he was wearing garmies. I suppose that should be called “faith promotion bias”, a sub-genre of confirmation bias.
Frankly, if all those angels were even minimally competent, they should have kept the bomber out of the school. And where were the Three Nephites when you need them?
Critical thinking 101: what evidence is there that that statement is actually true? Did an ATF report on the bombing state that the investigators do not understand why the students weren’t killed?
This is totally stereotypical “faith-promoting” story, no different from claiming that Brother Rasmussen survived the car crash because he was wearing his temple garments. Had he died, nobody would say it was because he was wearing garmies. I suppose that should be called “faith promotion bias”, a sub-genre of confirmation bias.
Frankly, if all those angels were even minimally competent, they should have kept the bomber out of the school. And where were the Three Nephites when you need them?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima
Of course, mormons are going to say that all the sightings of the post-partum and once virginal Mary are bogus, but they sure have numbers on their side!
Of course, mormons are going to say that all the sightings of the post-partum and once virginal Mary are bogus, but they sure have numbers on their side!
The existence of angels is a question of biology, not theology. So maybe there are unseen beings. What does that have to do with God?
All I know is the supposed angel on the wall image.....looks more demonic than angel to me!
I have to assume that these kids were so inculcated in Mo'-ism that they believed they saw angels, and were coached further by other believers.
I have to assume that these kids were so inculcated in Mo'-ism that they believed they saw angels, and were coached further by other believers.
The only thing that truly seems miraculous is the cut wire that prevented the "air mix" part of the bomb from going off. Maybe the wife started to chicken out and try to disarm the bomb herself? Maybe one of the Three Nephites was there (you know, the one who always carries a Swiss army knife) and he cut it.
In any case, the notion that they were "protected from injury" is BS: over 70 were hurt by flash burns.
In any case, the notion that they were "protected from injury" is BS: over 70 were hurt by flash burns.
I've been to Cokeville. I think it is miraculous that they have 70 kids there. It's a bump in the road. Pop 500 and something.
More than you wanted to know about the bombing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cokeville_Elementary_School_hostage_crisis
Read the wiki article. The bomber sounds like a real piece of work - a QAnonner before QAnon was cool.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2021 04:25PM by Brother Of Jerry.
More than you wanted to know about the bombing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cokeville_Elementary_School_hostage_crisis
Read the wiki article. The bomber sounds like a real piece of work - a QAnonner before QAnon was cool.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2021 04:25PM by Brother Of Jerry.
Children will often make up things that they think will please the adults in their lives. Remember this gem?
"Child Sees Angels Bear President Monson Up at General Conference"
https://www.calledtoshare.com/2015/10/08/presidentmonson/
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm quite confident that didn't happen either.
"Child Sees Angels Bear President Monson Up at General Conference"
https://www.calledtoshare.com/2015/10/08/presidentmonson/
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm quite confident that didn't happen either.
Why not angels ?
Because it was actually unicorns.
There were also reports of dead relatives. Can you become an angel after death in Mormonism?
LOL @ the exmos in this tred ~
dancing around the head of they scientific pin ~
an trying to rationalize away a fact even children understand ~
p.s. ~
welcome back jugo ~
dancing around the head of they scientific pin ~
an trying to rationalize away a fact even children understand ~
p.s. ~
welcome back jugo ~
What fact would that be, sparky?
The bomb was a gallon of gasoline and a blasting cap, not high explosives, so it wasn't an explosion so much as a fireball. It would take a while (seconds, most likely) for the gasoline to mix with enough oxygen to burn. the stuff in a car engine is both vaporized in advance, and thoroughly mixed with air. Even then, it does not explode, but burns very rapidly.
I don't know how many kids were in the room [edit 2: 96 students and 18 adults], but if 79 of them were burned, many seriously, it would seem to me that the gasoline was indeed pretty dangerous. That none of them died doesn't have to be attributed to angels. People were able to put out the flames before anyone died.
There was makeshift shrapnel around the "bomb", but since it didn't really explode, just burned, it sounds like the shrapnel was mostly or completely ineffective.
But, yeah, angels is why all that happened was that a bunch of people were hospitalized. As I said above, if the angels were any good, they would have kept the bomb out of the school. I'm not impressed with their work.
edit to add note on explosives. Explosives explode because they don't have to be mixed with oxygen. There is a chemical that supplies oxygen atoms built right into the explosive. That is why they will work just fine even in a vacuum. You don't need air to fire a bullet. Gunpowder has potassium nitrate (KNO3) which supplies three oxygen atoms per molecule.
If the gallon of gasoline had been vaporized and the vapor spread throughout the classroom, it would have made a dandy explosive because all the gasoline would have had ready access to oxygen.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2021 06:25PM by Brother Of Jerry.
The bomb was a gallon of gasoline and a blasting cap, not high explosives, so it wasn't an explosion so much as a fireball. It would take a while (seconds, most likely) for the gasoline to mix with enough oxygen to burn. the stuff in a car engine is both vaporized in advance, and thoroughly mixed with air. Even then, it does not explode, but burns very rapidly.
I don't know how many kids were in the room [edit 2: 96 students and 18 adults], but if 79 of them were burned, many seriously, it would seem to me that the gasoline was indeed pretty dangerous. That none of them died doesn't have to be attributed to angels. People were able to put out the flames before anyone died.
There was makeshift shrapnel around the "bomb", but since it didn't really explode, just burned, it sounds like the shrapnel was mostly or completely ineffective.
But, yeah, angels is why all that happened was that a bunch of people were hospitalized. As I said above, if the angels were any good, they would have kept the bomb out of the school. I'm not impressed with their work.
edit to add note on explosives. Explosives explode because they don't have to be mixed with oxygen. There is a chemical that supplies oxygen atoms built right into the explosive. That is why they will work just fine even in a vacuum. You don't need air to fire a bullet. Gunpowder has potassium nitrate (KNO3) which supplies three oxygen atoms per molecule.
If the gallon of gasoline had been vaporized and the vapor spread throughout the classroom, it would have made a dandy explosive because all the gasoline would have had ready access to oxygen.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2021 06:25PM by Brother Of Jerry.
That's a lot of facts for the head of a pin. That was like a Tango, Cha Cha AND Swan Lake! You can dance on my pins anytime, haha.
I worked at an ammo dump in the army, so I had access to lots of people with expertise in things that went boom.
Fun fact: det cord burns (aka detonates) at a rate of 30,000 feet per second. That's NYC to LA in about 6 minutes, give or take.
Fun fact: det cord burns (aka detonates) at a rate of 30,000 feet per second. That's NYC to LA in about 6 minutes, give or take.
That is a fun fact, and, kinds scary. Wow.
My late wife was saved by an angel when she was 5. She was walking across long a train trestle and was right in the middle when the train came. There was no time to get to either end and it was too high to jump off. The trestle only had room for a train, there was no walkway.
A nice old man appeared out of nowhere and walked her to a part of the structure that had just enough room and had her hug the side as the train went by. Once the train was gone, so was the old man.
Angel stories are plentiful, look them up on YouTube. They don't just happen to Mormons. Miracles happen only to those who believe in them, which would explain the crossover between exmos and those who don't believe.
A nice old man appeared out of nowhere and walked her to a part of the structure that had just enough room and had her hug the side as the train went by. Once the train was gone, so was the old man.
Angel stories are plentiful, look them up on YouTube. They don't just happen to Mormons. Miracles happen only to those who believe in them, which would explain the crossover between exmos and those who don't believe.
So is a miracle a reward for belief? Lots of people believe in miracles and never get one. Are there a limited number of miracles to hand out? Or does the miracleworker just like some people to suffer and die?
If miracles are dependent on belief, is it the believer who is making the magic really happen? Are they the ones in control?
What are the parameters of a miracle? Is it just getting saved from danger?
I think if there was an old man with your wife that night, my assumption of his disappearance wouldn't be "vanished in thin air" but "omg, this old man just saved me and probably got swept under the wheels of this train rushing past us!" It wouldn't be a moment to praise some mystical power. It would be a horribly traumatic event and I might try to avoid survivors guilt by trying to cling to the fact that I hadn't actually seen where he went, so, could neither confirm or deny that he was in fact dead. Musta been an angel.
If miracles are dependent on belief, is it the believer who is making the magic really happen? Are they the ones in control?
What are the parameters of a miracle? Is it just getting saved from danger?
I think if there was an old man with your wife that night, my assumption of his disappearance wouldn't be "vanished in thin air" but "omg, this old man just saved me and probably got swept under the wheels of this train rushing past us!" It wouldn't be a moment to praise some mystical power. It would be a horribly traumatic event and I might try to avoid survivors guilt by trying to cling to the fact that I hadn't actually seen where he went, so, could neither confirm or deny that he was in fact dead. Musta been an angel.
Haha. What's this miracle thing all about, anyway? We need truth in packaging
The only thing we know for sure is when the miracle doesn't happen it's because God needed them more.
The only thing we know for sure is when the miracle doesn't happen it's because God needed them more.
I think it's based on a daily quota . . .
I feel bad when I hear about true innocents dying in bizarre manners. And then hearing about people who walked away from an event that absolutely should have killed them.
If there's no angel available to do escort duty, you get to live. If there are escort angels getting bored, waiting for some action, some usually inconsequential action kills you!
I feel bad when I hear about true innocents dying in bizarre manners. And then hearing about people who walked away from an event that absolutely should have killed them.
If there's no angel available to do escort duty, you get to live. If there are escort angels getting bored, waiting for some action, some usually inconsequential action kills you!
Can you score good blow in Cokeville? I’m talking pure Peruvian flake. Not the cut crap they sell now.
Maybe the bomber was a Pepsi drinker..
It's a scam. Everyone knows that mormon angels do not have wings.
That is how it goes with Jesus. The same guy who can not make up His divine mind whether to provide indications of His divine existence and majesty or to test people's faith on the issue. Sure, Jesus is going to intercede because .....whatever. But just because Jesus interceded does not mean that people are going to get away completely unscathed because Jesus needs to leave people with some sense of how dire that things could have been IF He ....the miraculous Jesus...... was not interceding. That is how Jesus always plays both sides of the coin to promote himself to the highest extent possible .....without doing too much, so that it would be overwhelming enough to eliminate the all important requirement of making people exercise faith. Just like Jesus was definitely going to come down to earth just long enough to show off his magic powers for a few people, but do not expect Him to hang around to make things really better in the long run for everyone, that would be expecting way too much.
smirkorama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is how it goes with Jesus. The same guy who
> can not make up His divine mind whether to provide
> indications of His divine existence and majesty or
> to test people's faith on the issue.
> Sure, Jesus is going to intercede because .....whatever.
> But just because Jesus interceded does not mean that
> people are going to get away completely unscathed
> because Jesus needs to leave people with some
> sense of how dire that things could have been IF
> He ....the miraculous Jesus...... was not
> interceding. That is how Jesus always plays both
> sides of the coin to promote himself to the
> highest extent possible .....without doing too
> much, so that it would be overwhelming enough to
> eliminate the all important requirement of making
> people exercise faith. Just like Jesus was
> definitely going to come down to earth just long
> enough to show off his magic powers for a few
> people, but do not expect Him to hang around to
> make things really better in the long run for
> everyone, that would be expecting way too much.
Like it or not, this largely 'Roman' holdover was changed forevermore with the stunning and fantastic arrival of Jesus Christ onto the edge of this world.
We still live under the changes sustained since the Christ arrival.
Unmistakable is the ancient areas sustaining a near perfect "Jesus vacuum" where his great influence remains disallowed.
So sorry the Sunday School education fits adult life in possibly more than just one way.
There is no other easy cure than maybe to finish growing up.
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is how it goes with Jesus. The same guy who
> can not make up His divine mind whether to provide
> indications of His divine existence and majesty or
> to test people's faith on the issue.
> Sure, Jesus is going to intercede because .....whatever.
> But just because Jesus interceded does not mean that
> people are going to get away completely unscathed
> because Jesus needs to leave people with some
> sense of how dire that things could have been IF
> He ....the miraculous Jesus...... was not
> interceding. That is how Jesus always plays both
> sides of the coin to promote himself to the
> highest extent possible .....without doing too
> much, so that it would be overwhelming enough to
> eliminate the all important requirement of making
> people exercise faith. Just like Jesus was
> definitely going to come down to earth just long
> enough to show off his magic powers for a few
> people, but do not expect Him to hang around to
> make things really better in the long run for
> everyone, that would be expecting way too much.
Like it or not, this largely 'Roman' holdover was changed forevermore with the stunning and fantastic arrival of Jesus Christ onto the edge of this world.
We still live under the changes sustained since the Christ arrival.
Unmistakable is the ancient areas sustaining a near perfect "Jesus vacuum" where his great influence remains disallowed.
So sorry the Sunday School education fits adult life in possibly more than just one way.
There is no other easy cure than maybe to finish growing up.
Joseph's Myth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like it or not, this largely 'Roman' holdover was
> changed forevermore with the stunning and
> fantastic arrival of Jesus Christ onto the edge of
> this world.
> We still live under the changes sustained since
> the Christ arrival.
> Unmistakable is the ancient areas sustaining a
> near perfect "Jesus vacuum" where his great
> influence remains disallowed.
>
> So sorry the Sunday School education fits adult
> life in possibly more than just one way.
> There is no other easy cure than maybe to finish
> growing up.
Did someone say "Roman holdover" ????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0
like it or not, the New Testament Jesus .....regardless of how influential..... is just as real as Joseph Smith's gold plates. See the Monte Python Film "The Life Of Brian"
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like it or not, this largely 'Roman' holdover was
> changed forevermore with the stunning and
> fantastic arrival of Jesus Christ onto the edge of
> this world.
> We still live under the changes sustained since
> the Christ arrival.
> Unmistakable is the ancient areas sustaining a
> near perfect "Jesus vacuum" where his great
> influence remains disallowed.
>
> So sorry the Sunday School education fits adult
> life in possibly more than just one way.
> There is no other easy cure than maybe to finish
> growing up.
Did someone say "Roman holdover" ????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0
like it or not, the New Testament Jesus .....regardless of how influential..... is just as real as Joseph Smith's gold plates. See the Monte Python Film "The Life Of Brian"
smirkorama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph's Myth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
>
> > Like it or not, this largely 'Roman' holdover
> was
> > changed forevermore with the stunning and
> > fantastic arrival of Jesus Christ onto the edge
> of
> > this world.
> > We still live under the changes sustained since
> > the Christ arrival.
> > Unmistakable is the ancient areas sustaining a
> > near perfect "Jesus vacuum" where his great
> > influence remains disallowed.
> >
> > So sorry the Sunday School education fits adult
> > life in possibly more than just one way.
> > There is no other easy cure than maybe to
> finish
> > growing up.
>
> Did someone say "Roman holdover" ????
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0
>
> like it or not, the New Testament Jesus
> .....regardless of how influential..... is just
> as real as Joseph Smith's gold plates. See the
> Monte Python Film "The Life Of Brian"
Let's say my appreciation of the beautiful work with either "Life Of Brian" or "Holy Grail" by Monte Python is cumulative with either Broadway's Book Of Mormon or the fake real one Joseph Smith uttered.
The fight is so so so done, the Intenet artillery and world wide web bombings can slow. It's the ground troops job now, kids talking with parents.
I don't see me in those conversations.
I really don't see me in conversations debating that there might be some holdover tension since the arrival of our dear Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Iwasmormononlyoncenottwice
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph's Myth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
>
> > Like it or not, this largely 'Roman' holdover
> was
> > changed forevermore with the stunning and
> > fantastic arrival of Jesus Christ onto the edge
> of
> > this world.
> > We still live under the changes sustained since
> > the Christ arrival.
> > Unmistakable is the ancient areas sustaining a
> > near perfect "Jesus vacuum" where his great
> > influence remains disallowed.
> >
> > So sorry the Sunday School education fits adult
> > life in possibly more than just one way.
> > There is no other easy cure than maybe to
> finish
> > growing up.
>
> Did someone say "Roman holdover" ????
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0
>
> like it or not, the New Testament Jesus
> .....regardless of how influential..... is just
> as real as Joseph Smith's gold plates. See the
> Monte Python Film "The Life Of Brian"
Let's say my appreciation of the beautiful work with either "Life Of Brian" or "Holy Grail" by Monte Python is cumulative with either Broadway's Book Of Mormon or the fake real one Joseph Smith uttered.
The fight is so so so done, the Intenet artillery and world wide web bombings can slow. It's the ground troops job now, kids talking with parents.
I don't see me in those conversations.
I really don't see me in conversations debating that there might be some holdover tension since the arrival of our dear Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Iwasmormononlyoncenottwice
I am willing to confess on bended knee that Gandalf really did visit Middle Earth and befriend hobbits.
the true miracle would have been the event not occurring at all -
- but apparently their "god" was asleep at the switch ;-)
- but apparently their "god" was asleep at the switch ;-)
They got lucky and they lied.
HH =)
HH =)