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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 12:38PM

Records prove otherwise.

IOW, the Lord’s Annointed is a lying sack of sh!t!

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/11/16/dallin-oaks-says-shock/

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 01:01PM

How do they get away with it?

I recall Oaks defending the Salamander Letter and explaining how it was possible for a salamander to change into a human figure. Then he had the nerve to tell church members that they need to be “more sophisticated “ in their reading!

He denies that the “shock therapy” didn’t happen under his watch; somehow it doesn’t surprise me.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 01:16PM

valkyriequeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do they get away with it?
>
> I recall Oaks defending the Salamander Letter and
> explaining how it was possible for a salamander to
> change into a human figure. Then he had the nerve
> to tell church members that they need to be
> “more sophisticated “ in their reading!
>
> He denies that the “shock therapy” didn’t
> happen under his watch; somehow it doesn’t
> surprise me.
LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 10:19PM

Anytime anybody brings reptiles or amphibians or any other kind of animal into a worship count me out!
Actually count me out of any worship
Unless it’s me meditating on my own in nature.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 01:15PM

I was there when Oaks was there and they were coercing the gay kids into the torture. Wasn't just the electricity but the threat to tell your family and kick you out if you didn't submit. The emotional blackmail was staggering.

Oaks is a liar and a coward. COWARD.

While Oaks was there you could even take a "Justice Administration 299R Course" and get school credit for posing as a decoy to entrap the gay kids. Oaks knew everything. His main focus was on keeping the campus squeaky clean in old boy fashion in order to appeal to major donors who were looking for schools that hadn't been invaded by those free love bra burning hippies.

The honor code wasn't about what Jesus wanted, it was about getting major bequests to the University from the likes of Marriot et al and about making a big impression on the Gerontocracy he was hoping to join. He knew what they wanted and he was going to give it to them.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 06:09PM

I can't see the article--I must somehow have let my Tribune subscription lapse, more's the pity--but my first impulse on seeing the title of this thread was to ask if you or others have considered contributing to the comments.

A simple recitation of facts and dates should expose Oaks's mendacity.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 08:45PM

"In a landmark speech Friday at the University of Virginia, Latter-day Saint apostle Dallin H. Oaks said he had recently “come to understand better the distress of persons” — including LGBTQ individuals — who feel that some religious believers invoke the U.S. Constitution to deny rights to others."

"Yet, during a question-and-answer session earlier that day at the law school — a video of which has been circulating on social media — the first counselor in the faith’s governing First Presidency refused to discuss the impact of the church’s past mistreatment of its LGBTQ members.

Oaks categorically denied that BYU had used electroshock therapies on gay students during his tenure from 1971 to 1980."

"When I became president of BYU, that had been discontinued earlier,” Oaks said in answer to a question about those treatments, “and it never went on under my administration.”

According to researcher Gregory Prince and others, that statement is demonstrably false.

In his 2019 book, “Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences,” Prince cites “university-approved” research in 1976 by then-BYU graduate student Max McBride with 14 gay subjects. The male subjects were hooked up to monitors that measured their arousal when shown photos of nude men or women."

"The Utah-based faith has since backed away from such therapies and other attempts to change a person’s sexual orientation.
Oaks declined to comment on the discrepancy between his memory and the research, church spokesperson Doug Andersen said Monday. The church representative then pointed to the faith’s 2016 public statement — reinforced several years later — about so-called conversion therapy.

“The church denounces any therapy, including conversion and reparative therapies,” it stated, “that subjects an individual to abusive practices, not only in Utah, but throughout the world.”

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 05:18PM

Thank you.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 01:19PM

In my humble but true opinion Dallin Oaks would rather lie when the truth is cheaper

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Posted by: Shinehah ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 01:41PM

A Mormon General Authority denying documented history? Not exactly the first time.

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Posted by: ~ufotofu~ ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 06:59PM

Lying, like Joseph Smith

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Posted by: Jaxson ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 07:34PM

I don't know what the article says because I can't see it. But I believe that Oaks was BYU Prez from 1971 - 1980.

McBride's dissertation was written in 1976 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1u3K43P-3JoY2Q5NDY3ZjYtNWUyMi00YWJiLWFhM2EtYTE4MjViNWVjOGEz/view?sort=name&layout=list&num=50&pli=1&resourcekey=0-hCSFHXaW9-fct0G1CTYPDw

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 08:12PM

Wow.

Less importantly, a Ph.D. dissertation of 85 pages? That's not even a master's thesis at most universities. It brings to mind that Groberg enormity.

More importantly, much more importantly, can you imagine being one of the four readers who signed their approval of that dissertation on page ii? They voluntarily enshrined themselves in the academic Hall of Shame. I would hate to number among their descendants.

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Posted by: Tahoe Girl ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 08:21PM

Liar. SLCabbie can tell you of a fare he had that was a woman who had the BYU shock therapy in 1992. I cried when I read his story about that.

TG

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 09:27PM

Beautiful third person story there. What does it have to do with equity?

His ‘Good Ol Boy Club at BYU were torturing students sexually up until after I was a kid.
Had I known that I would have said a hearty Fuck You to LDS Inc long before I did.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2021 09:30PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 09:42PM

Unfortunately, I'm 99% sure that ChurchCo has intimidated victims "participants" to sign NDAs;

society should enact laws preventing their enforcement when the overall interests of the public are more important.

I'm not sure about a blanket rule change, but when victims seek compensation for horrible actions they shouldn't be denied (has churchco paid any of these people off?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2021 09:46PM by GNPE.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: November 16, 2021 10:13PM

100%
I have waaaaaay too many loved ones who have been victimized by this CULT and then shamed into silence by this abusive CULT,
They can’t talk about their huge settlements bc of NDAs but I can,
I enjoy tarnishing the so-called ‘good’ nam of the CULT.
fortunately I was never abused and neither were my sisters. Neither were my kids. Luckily I got them out before creepy McFeely the sexual psychopath got ahold of my son. Of course my Son, broke the varsity wrestlers collar bone the first time he wrestled. And like I told him, we gave you the ability to speak up and not be intimidated.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2021 10:25PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 05:50AM

They don’t call him Dallin H Hoax for nothing.

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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 08:03AM

Did the story in the Tribune call him out on that? Are they dong their job as investigative reporters?

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 10:09AM

Yes

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Posted by: Joseph's Myth ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 08:10AM

The NDa'S are the LDS church'S dentures.

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Posted by: Maca not logged in ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 11:39AM

Oaks is a man who doesn't firmly believe in anything except the brethren or power, just listen to his recent talks, the one in April has some profoundly disturbing ideas, showing his true political ideas, he's what you'd call an independent, so he'll refuse to denounce bad politics yet he'll always side with the winning team no matter if they are right or wrong, he doesn't believe in anything, but that's a typical lawyer, they want to win through argument and rhetoric but it's all sophistry,

And then there's the way proposition 8 was handled back in the mid 2000s another embarrassing debacle that oaks ran, but he didn't believe in what he was doing then either

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 11:41AM

wow. super surprised. who wouldathunk?

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 07:07PM

“Free Electricity” by Ryan Rhodes is a stellar book on electroshock therapy at BYU. The author was a BYU student during this horrid practice. Brilliantly written.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 08:39PM

I second that recommendation.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 09:19PM

Hey, I know Ryan Rhodes! ...or rather, I know of him. I've heard he's a crusty ol' bastard who hates dogs and refuses to move out of his mother's basement, somewhere in the hills of Arkansas. He's never held a job for more than a month and chews tobacco even when he's asleep. I've heard that he's the real reason Nixon resigned!

Would I lie?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 09:28PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've heard that he's the real reason Nixon resigned!

Are you still trying to deflect attention from your role in that historical event?

Go ahead, serenade us with your famed mariachi rendition of "Happy Birthday, Mr. President."

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 09:33PM

The version where I tuned the strings of my guitar so that I could play in the key of L without having to fret any of the strings?

Yeah... I'm proud of that, but no way it eclipses what Ryan Rhodes did!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 09:40PM

Agreed. That book is one of the best accounts of what happened at BYU. It's irreplaceable especially now that the church is trying to bury those "not very useful" truths.

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Posted by: cheezus ( )
Date: November 17, 2021 10:53PM

perhaps the salamander told him to tell his 'truth' about this.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: November 18, 2021 01:07AM

The only time viewing porn is ok in the church is when you are a gay male at BYU and they are trying to make you straight. If naked ladies arouse you, then you are worthy to be at BYU. Hopefully one of the fine young ladies on campus will arouse you and you can knock her up after a temple sealing and breed more church members.

If naked men spring your wood, ZAP! We will keep shocking you until you love the ladies or you are outta here!

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Posted by: Joseph's Myth ( )
Date: November 18, 2021 01:27AM

Plenty worse things happened at BYU, guys learn quickly when rape once was never reported (old honor code violation) and then they took things as far as they liked. Yahh.. Like, you betà

Backwards, stupid and idiotic leadership.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/30/mormon-rape-victims-shame-brigham-young-university

https://kslnewsradio.com/1902205/byu-pd-decertified/amp/

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 18, 2021 10:12AM

"Plenty worse things happened at BYU"????

You. Have. No. Idea. what the electroshock was all about and the coercion and blackmail that lead to suicides and ruined lives.

I find in life, when someone has something traumatic happen to them that causes extreme emotional damage, about the worst thing you can do is dismiss it by saying that someone else had it worse.

I don't compare one person's tragedy to someone else's.

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Posted by: Joseph's Myth ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 12:33PM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Plenty worse things happened at BYU"????
>
> You. Have. No. Idea. what the electroshock was
> all about and the coercion and blackmail that lead
> to suicides and ruined lives.
>
> I find in life, when someone has something
> traumatic happen to them that causes extreme
> emotional damage, about the worst thing you can do
> is dismiss it by saying that someone else had it
> worse.
>
> I don't compare one person's tragedy to someone
> else's.

I'm so so sorry, I may have mistakenly jumped gun again ..

A lesbian shocked like hell in treatment that they consulted to after reaching out for some LDS help goes on to successfully attend BYU and ends up on a bad date with a some horribly horny male that goes too far where police bought and paid by church deals, covers it all up!

That would be worse.

The campus police are only recently no longer tied in with local law enforcement.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: November 21, 2021 01:23PM

Joseph's Myth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm so so sorry, I may have mistakenly jumped gun
> again ..

You apologized, which is good. Nobody who didn't experience a grievous wrong personally truly has complete and personal understanding the way a survivor does. The best we can do is listen and definitely not minimize their pain or the reasons for it, and acknowledge the wrongdoing, and as far as is possible hold the guilty party/ies to account.


However, then you mention another experience and say:

> That would be worse.

First the apology, then a comparison and a comment that somebody else had it worse?

A lack of understanding that negates the strength of the apology.

Sometimes we should just listen.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 18, 2021 10:52AM

An excerpt from "Free Electricity" which was written as a novel but the electroshock sections were heavily researched and detailed. Younger generations may not understand what it was like to be gay in the seventies--not that it's great for all the kids nowadays--the threat of exposure was life ruining.



“They said the procedure was all voluntary. People who fancy
themselves to be decent would say that to ease their consciences. The church claimed the sessions were voluntary to avoid lawsuits and bad publicity.”

Mark cut in abruptly. “Can you say it’s voluntary when you hold a person’s entire future against their throat like a knife? Can you say it’s voluntary when a kid who has been terrified of his own feelings since puberty is caught in a web and everything he has hidden in terror and shame is to be brought to light? In front of everyone—to be known forever?”

I could scarcely breathe. I was beyond tense now. My organs had started to freeze up. “What machine?” I repeated in a croak. “The administrator of this aversion therapy took these traumatized, humiliated, shaking kids into a room and strapped them into a chair with their pants down or at least opened. They put a device, a mercury-filled tube, around the base of the penis that would measure their arousal rate. I read that shocks, given in three ten-second intervals, were then administered when the patient became aroused looking at nude images of men. It was all done very clinically. There was an effort to maintain a scien- tific air so that it could be passed off as research. I am sure some of the personnel actually felt that these sessions had some noble aspect to them. but I am just as sure that the larger purpose was to ensure that the squeaky-clean image of the BYU Mormon youth would remain as a beacon to the world in the eyes of the Mormon hierarchy to maintain the structural support behind the Mormon facade.

“And then they gave you a device to administer shock treatments to yourself. Electricity. electricity at painful levels. They were kind enough, however, to let you choose your own level of agony. you could dial it up or down. Thoughtful, no?
“The projectors came out, the screen came down, and then they showed you gay pornography. There was no popcorn,” Mark said, deadpan.

“Most of the kids had never even seen pornography before, except for some older brother’s Playboy, which of course didn’t interest them much. but here they were, suddenly looking at men doing things to each other that many of these innocents either knew nothing about or had always dreamed about. and for the first time in their innocent lives, they would learn about their sexuality in this charged way, devoid of the innocent exploration that is the luxury of normal youth. It was arousing. You cannot control your dick in the face of that if you are gay. as soon as the arousal measuring device on the penis indicated that they were hard, they were instructed to shock themselves. The shock was to the arm or hands, I think. It was excruciatingly painful and frightening on even the lowest level, and some who went to the highest level passed out. They say it left burn marks, and I heard that the boys were told to wear long-sleeve shirts.

“But here’s the catch: if you only selected the lowest level on the pain dial, this was noted by the technician, and it would be concluded by those reviewing the case that you were not sufficiently motivated to change. In that case, your original situation still remained. This was made pretty clear—though always through innuendo. You want to get your life back? Turn it to high. Dial it to excruciating and take it like a man. It wasn’t rocket science.

“And...and it was no secret that this was dangerous to the health, not just the psyche. so the gay kids had to sign a waiver or release form of some kind indemnifying the university or church of any responsibility. I saw it once. It basically said that the procedures would likely produce a great deal of discomfort.”

At this he rolled his eyes and said mockingly, “Just a little understatement there, since after using the word discomfort it went on to say that tissue and organ damage could result! It also stated that the ‘victim’ understood that the materials they were to be shown could be considered socially and morally offensive.”

I could feel the blood draining out of my face. Mark looked at me in an odd way and asked if I was oK, but he kept going.
“everybody is different, you know. some could take it. Some, like the younger kids sent by their bishops, were motivated. They went willingly, actually believing they would be cured. No price was too high to pay to end this monkey on the back that would ride you through life, ride you into the ground. They wanted it gone, so they would dial it up. I have heard their bravado faded rather quickly session after session, however.

“There was another option. you could have a heparin lock in the wrist, and they would hook an IV up to that. They would again put the plethysmograph on the penis to measure arousal. They would then show the male-to-male pornography, and when an erection was detected, they injected a drug into the IV that would make the patient violently ill, vomiting and retching uncontrollably. once that had happened, they injected another drug to make the patient feel euphoric, and the pornography changed to pictures of opposite-sex couples fully clothed. I don’t think this was used as much at BYU—it was mostly the electroshock.”

I had no more questions. I could barely listen. It was so mor- bid—I just wanted it to stop, but I knew I had to keep the infor- mation coming all at the same time.



Mark continued.
“and then when the ‘subject’ was sufficiently reduced to a weakened sob, when the jolts had elicited screams that gave way to moans, they were given something euphoric—I guess the same as the IV users—I’m not sure on that one—and then at that moment, they were shown pictures of beautiful women.”

“How many times? How many times did they have to do it?” That was all I could get out.

“Over and over,” said Jane. “I know someone who went three times a week to aversion therapy for months. In order to justify it as a scientific experiment, the administrators of the procedure needed many subjects and many exposures. They were under pressure to produce a lot of official-looking data. no one was cured, of course, but many were irreparably damaged from the experience. It is not something you just brushed off when it was over like just another adventure on life’s journey—as you can imagine.”

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: November 18, 2021 11:36AM

I also remember SL Cabbie's story about a female who went through electroshock therapy.

I tend to believe that if they could, they'd still do this especially after hearing the most recent talk by Holland or was it Ballard. In all the years I've dealt with gays in the LDS church situation--39 years now--they've never improved. They just change the words, but then they do something to show they haven't made any progress.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: November 18, 2021 12:14PM

Now they advocate shooting gays with muskets, not just electroshocking their nutsacks when they get arroused by gay porn.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: November 18, 2021 04:12PM

She specifically mentioned a female getting shocked. What a callus sentiment you have in reply.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 18, 2021 06:00PM

I believe that all the literature specifies that the electrodes were NOT attached to sexual parts of the body, but to areas like the wrists and thighs.  Here's what Connell O'Donovan, a Gay activist/author says ("I" in all the following is Bro. O'Donovan):

    "On September 5, 1935, New York University professor Dr. Louis W. Max informed a meeting of the American Psychological Association (APA) that he has successfully treated a "partially fetishistic" homosexual neurosis with electric shock therapy delivered at "intensities considerably higher than those usually employed on human subjects," the first documented instance of aversion therapy used to "cure" homosexuality.  (Note that the APA's 2007 Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation has concluded that "efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm.")

    As far as I can tell, the earliest experiments with aversive therapies at BYU to "cure" homosexuality date to the mid-1960s and were spearheaded by D. Eugene Thorne, head of BYU's Psychology Dept.  By 1968, he had gained enough information to report his findings from BYU in a paper given in San Francisco that year for the annual convention of the American Psychological Association.

    Then in 1969, the school administration became more careful in its use of controversial therapies for treating "sexual deviancy" as they put it.  The administration publicly claimed that the use of such therapies had been curtailed but unofficially they continued unabated.  BYU's Academic Vice President, Robert Thomas, advised college deans to alert those who were using aversive therapies to be "particularly cautious in utilizing them" not because they might prove harmful per se, but out of fear for lawsuits.

    In 1975, the BYU Psychology Department administrators organized a Board of Review for Psychotherapeutic Techniques to recommend "policies governing the use of sensitive treatment techniques" on campus. Within a year, the review board had assembled a list of eight therapies being used at BYU which "could conflict" with church teachings. However, most of the therapies were not stopped (including electric shock, vomiting aversion, and the use of pornographic materials).

    Gary Bergera interviewed Gerald Dye, chair of the University Standards office, in February 1978, and Dye reported what the "set process" was for "homosexual students referred to Standards" for counseling:

    They are asked to a personal interview with Standards...to determine the depth or extent of involvement; previous involvement, if any, of the offender; does the student understand the seriousness of the matter; if the branch president or bishop [is] aware.  The individual's branch president or home bishop is contacted.  Standards is to determine if the offense is serious or not:
    a. serious: repetition; anal/oral intercourse.
    b. less serious: experimential [sic]; mutual masturbation.

    Action taken: If determined to be serious, the student is expelled.  If less serious, the student may remain at BYU on a probationary basis.  Standards also acts as an intermediary between the student who remains and counseling service; Students who remain are required to undergo therapy.

    Although "therapy" was required for homosexual students, Dye promised Bergera that "no student working through Standards will ever undergo aversion therapy".  Electric shock and vomiting aversion therapies were nonetheless used in special cases.

    Max Ford McBride's PhD dissertation, completed in August 1976 under the direction of BYU psychology professor D. Eugene Thorne (note that Dr. I. Reed Payne, of the "Payne Papers" infamy, was also on his dissertation committee), is an excellent example of clinical dehumanization practiced by Mormon "therapists".  In the Mormon worldview, the end certainly justifies the means: heterosexuality must be attained and maintained AT ANY COST - even if it means using pornography (which the Mormon Church is usually vehemently opposed to) and physical torture.

    Under the oversight of his committee chairman, Dr. Thorne, McBride experimented on fourteen Gay male subjects to determine if using photographs of nude men and women from Playgirl- and Playboy-type magazines was helpful in electric shock therapy. The 14 Gay BYU students in McBride's study were compared after being "treated" on an out-patient basis during 22 sessions of shock therapy.

    Each of the 22 sessions lasted 50 minutes.  10 of those minutes were spent in "assertive training" and the remaining 40 minutes in "aversive conditioning."  The average duration of treatment for the men was three months.  The release form these men were required to sign informed them that "damage to tissue or organs may occur," that they would be looking at "sensitive materials" possibly contrary to their values [ie. pornography], and that BYU would be released from any responsibility for any damage done to them.

    The long-term effects of the electric shock "therapy" these men were subjected to has been crippling.  Two of the men committed suicide soon after completing this torturous study.  Every survivor I have interviewed has suffered life-long emotional, spiritual, and sometimes physical damage.

    In 1999, John Cameron, one of the 14 men who went through this horrific experience in 1976 when he was a 23-year-old BYU student and member of the Young Ambassadors, wrote to me, "For 22 years now I have lived with the scars of the experience - unable to articulate a personal suffering and longing that have almost crippled me...I didn't completely come out of the closet until I was 34, and only after much angry, pissed-off therapy.  I spent a lot of money just so I could yell at my psychologist and break things in his office for an hour every week for two years.  But it was a hell of a lot more fun than Ford McBride and the electrodes."

    A Gay psychology intern at BYU named Ray actually assisted in giving electric shock therapy to fellow Gay men in the late 1970s.  In an interview he did for Sean Weakland's documentary on aversive therapies at BYU called Legacies, Ray gave the following report on his activities and their results (which I quote here extensively because Ray has so much "insider" knowledge):

    "A lot of times BYU security would catch people in compromising positions on campus.  Those people would have the choice to either be kicked out of school and have their families notified about what they had done or they could go through this therapy.  We had quite a few people who were going through it. There were others in the therapy who felt so much guilt for being the way they were or they had been promised that if they underwent the therapy they would be able to marry and have children and they would be turned.  Of course they had to have the desire to change, and if the therapy failed (which it always did), it was their fault for the failure since they didn't have enough desire.

    "Anyway, they would come in usually three times a week.  I would be behind a glass one-way mirror, and they would be on the other side of it.  They had their choice to look at pornographic magazines or watch porno videos.  We would tape electrodes to their groin, thigh, chest and armpits.  We had another machine that would monitor their breathing and heart rate.

    If there was a difference in their heart rate when looking at homosexual pornography, we would turn a dial which would send a current to shock them.  If they were a new patient, we would use a very low current.  From the reaction that I saw there were muscle spasms which looked very painful.

    "After that was over, we would switch the pornography over so that it was a man and a woman having sex, and we would play very soothing music in the background to try and get the mind to relate to that.  For the people that had been doing the therapy longer we turned the voltage way up so that you could see burn marks on the skin and quite often they would also throw up during the therapy.  This is speculation, but most of the students at BYU probably hadn't even seen pornography before.

    "After undergoing that kind of pain over a number of months, everyone said that they had completely changed.  They kept records for as long as the people were at BYU.  After they had graduated, there were no records kept to see what kind of success rate they had.  The BYU statistics were wrong because the people were lying.  They were desperate to get their degree and get out of the situation.  They had been blackmailed into the situation in the first place.

    "We did have some people who became completely asexual after undergoing the therapy.  But no, we never changed anyone from gay to straight...  We had several people who committed suicide during the therapy.  We had three different people who hung themselves in the Harris Fine Arts Center on BYU campus."

    In the late 1970s, Carol Lynn Pearson, a famous Mormon poet whose husband Gerald Pearson was Gay, met one of Gerald's Gay friends at BYU named Sam.  Sam told Carol Lynn that "they strapped me in a chair and attached wires to me. Then they showed me porno movies of men in sexual activity.  When I got turned on, they gave me a shock."

    At first they just shocked his hands.  "After that they added my forearms, and then my calves and thighs.  That was when they started cranking up the voltage.  I had to go in two or three times a week...  Only it didn't work.  All I wanted was not to touch anybody, not to be with anybody.  I felt like I was being turned into a zombie.  I would walk down the street and be freaked by everyone.  The idea of touching anyone, even my family, made me sick."

    After enduring several "treatments", Sam started to question his participation in his own torture.  "I made myself walk up those steps and go into that building and sit down in that chair.  And take the shocks...  Until I gave up...  There were burns on my arms but inside there was nothing different.  Nothing!  Just more pain." Sam left and never went back.

    Later, Sam told Gerald and Carol Lynn Pearson about another Gay BYU student named John who had committed suicide after going through electric shock treatments at BYU.  After leaving BYU both Sam and John had decided to move to Los Angeles together, although just as friends, not lovers.  "We were going to drop everything and go make a new life.  [John] told that to the General Authority that was on his case, and the man told him he'd be better off at the bottom of the Great Salt Lake with a millstone tied around his neck than to stay a homosexual.

    John believed him. He believed everything they said to him.  He drove back to Provo, told his roommates he was going to the laundromat, drove up Rock Canyon, laid out a blanket, and blew his brains out."

    Sam fared almost as badly as John.  In 1981, after leaving a Gay bar in San Francisco, without any warning he was attacked in a vicious anti-Gay hate crime by two young men wielding a crowbar.  He nearly died when they smashed his head in.  Sam went through five major surgeries and $70,000 in plastic surgery to re-piece his face together again. He was also blinded in one eye, which was replaced by a glass eye.

    I also personally recall an Affirmation meeting in 1988 when a man showed up calling himself only David.  He sat alone in a corner during our meeting and became extremely jittery when anyone approached him.  I spoke with him but he requested that I remain at least six feet in distance away from him.  He then rolled up his shirt sleeves and showed me his arms.  The deeply-scarred skin on the inside of his arms looked like raw hamburger and I almost vomited from the sight.

    He informed me that he had participated in electric shock therapy at BYU in 1977 and had been allowed to turn up the voltage as high as he wanted to.  The results were badly burned arms and a complete inability to come physically close to any male without him emotionally breaking down from the trauma.  His homosexual desires were as strong as ever but he was unable to touch another man even for a simple hug, he had no heterosexual desires whatsoever, and he was constantly on the verge of suicide.

    David never returned to Affirmation and I suspect from his fragile emotional state that he did not survive his ordeal for much longer.  I also met two Lesbians in 1990 at the Gay Pride festivities in Salt Lake who claimed that they had also gone through electric shock therapy at BYU in the 1970s but I was not able to conduct a formal interview and we lost contact.  That is the only knowledge I have of women being subjected to this torturous treatment at the hands of so-called therapists.

    Another Gay BYU student named Randy Smith went through aversion therapy at BYU in the late 1970s, but when it failed to make him heterosexual, he was excommunicated and expelled from the school.  Disillusioned by his treatment by the church and school, in 1981 he organized a protest against the LDS Church during it's semiannual conference in October.

    After he got legal permits to do so, he and 16 other protesters marched around Temple Square with signs and banners protesting the unethical treatment of Gays by the Mormon Church and then held a press conference, calling for the end of aversion therapies.  Almost all Mormons present simply ignored the vocal protest in their midst.

    Robert McQueen, a Gay returned missionary and editor in chief of The Advocate, published an article on Gays at BYU called "The Heterosexual Solution: A Dilemma for Gay Mormons", accompanied by a very intense depiction of the shock therapy, as well as a scandalous cartoon depicting Spencer Kimball, Brigham Young, and Joseph Smith showing a picture of a naked woman to two Gay men in bed together (which is essentially what McBride was doing with his "therapy" at the Y).

    Andrew Welch, a former Daily Utah Chronicle staff member, produced a 16 minute documentary on electric shock therapy at BYU in 1977 and early 1978.  San Francisco public television station KQED helped produce the documentary, which they broadcast in July of 1978.  For the documentary, Welch interviewed 40 Gay men and two BYU psychologists and showed the electric shock therapy device being used at BYU. Utah's PBS station, KUED, refused to air the program on these torturous practices, however, citing religious differences, and the belief that the program had nothing to do with civil rights - only "morality".

    (In 1982, BYU student Keith Mitchell also produced a three-part documentary on homosexuality at BYU. However, only the first two parts were aired.  Part 3, scheduled to air on August 6, 1982, was canceled for not meeting "the standard of accuracy set by the station".  Part 3 simply contained interviews with Gay BYU students and was thought to be "too sensational".)

    Dr. Eugene Thorne's career after BYU has continued to be controversial.  Thorne became co-owner and Executive Director of the Provo Canyon School (for severely "troubled teens") in March of 1979.  In Milonas v. Williams, two students named Timothy Milonas Jr. and Kenneth Rice sued Provo Canyon School administrators, including D. Eugene Thorne, for causing Milonas, Rice, and other students at the school to "suffer and to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, anti-therapeutic and inhumane treatment, and denial of due process of law."

    The school (and Dr. Thorne) were found guilty of violating the students' First and Fourteenth Amendment rights by monitoring and censoring student mail, using isolation rooms unnecessarily, and using physical force to coerce behavior modification.  The guilty verdict was appealed but the rehearing was denied by the Court of Appeals on November 9, 1982.  Despite being successfully sued for inhumane treatment of students, Thorne left the Provo Canyon School and became director of the Discovery Academy, a school similar to Provo Canyon School, but located in the city of Provo itself.  

    In April 1997 I made a call for BYU to admit what had been done to these people, apologize, and make financial reparations to them.  However despite the massive evidence to the contrary, Merrill Joseph Bateman, then President of BYU and a high ranking LDS General Authority, issued a statement to me via email on April 9, 1997 in response to my call, indicating that, "we have not been able to verify your assertion that electric shock therapy...was ever used on gay and lesbian students at BYU."

    At least a dozen other people over the course of several years thereafter received similar denials from Bateman or his office, when they have contacted him about this issue.  To my knowledge, Bateman has never retracted his denial.  Bateman is currently a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy.


There is sooooo much more in Bro. O'Donovan's treatise:

http://www.connellodonovan.com/abom.html



The mormon church: Liars, liars, pants on fires . . .

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 18, 2021 07:17PM

Thank you for this, EOD.

Oaks is hoping it all fades. What he has in his favor is that the kids all went their separate ways trying to build a life again. There is no museum like for so many other atrocities.
And here is that lying sack of shit denying in public. His followers won't doubt him and for anyone else it's just a footnote in history.

I tried to get more attention to it in gay publications, but turns out it just isn't the Cause du Jour.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: November 21, 2021 01:44PM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no museum like for so many other atrocities.

Profound, D&D.


> I tried to get more attention to it in gay
> publications, but turns out it just isn't the
> Cause du Jour.

Unfortunate. This would be so helpful in publicizing it more widely, increasing understanding of what happened, and perhaps helping the survivors in some way. One step toward healing is to receive acknowledgement of the wrongs one suffered. This would be a start.

When I read accounts like this it seems unbelievable that it could happen at all, never mind in recent history. It sounds more like an Inquisition trial and punishment scenario than a "loving" church encounter.

The fact that church leaders developed and encouraged this outrage should be widely known and hopefully would lead to them being inundated with negative publicity, the least of which they deserve. It could further decimate their conversion rate.

Too, perhaps more vocal and widespread condemnation from trusted sources would help some survivors.

The fact that some of these top men in the church personally knew or even participated in this abomination should be publicized and they should be called to account for it. In our dreams I guess but sometimes giants fall and justice is served.

I thought it was highly intrusive as an adult convert when the bishop inquired into my personal life. The only other time I had encountered that was as a teenage JW convert. Those were just personal questions and I felt uncomfortable. I see how there are orders of magnitude to the intrusiveness and actual physical and emotional harm these fundamentalist beliefs and practices can lead to.

Unfortunately, not enough of the abusers, if any in some instances like this, are called to account. Publicity would be a start. However, for the survivors, healing can be elusive no matter how things go.

It's comforting to think the offenders will receive justice some day but that often seems, and is, unlikely in many cases.

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Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 09:59AM

I had a friend, BYU graduate, who would have testified under oath that electroshock therapy happened under the leadership of Dallin Oaks at the BYU. I imagine Oaks is parsing words under his lawyerly credentials as it has been pretty well documented by this time.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 02:34PM

true, whether they apply here is unknown:


- in a large org, lots of stuff happens without the chief knowing.

- Mormonism has the cushion of (everything) 'being done with good intentions', regardless of outcomes or results.

- (I'm sure most of us have seen this) Sometimes the person in charge is shielded from questionable decisions and/or actions as a matter of 'loyalty' by subordinates.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 02:45PM

Yes, but that's not the point here. While it's possible Oaks did not know what was happening at BYU during his presidency, it is not possible that he is ignorant of the facts today. So he's lying.

Even if he did not know what was happening, furthermore, he was responsible for what his organization did "under his watch." He is trying to fend off culpability with claims of incompetence. What he doesn't want people to recognize is that one can be both incompetent and irresponsible at the same time.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 04:58PM

Isn't it (remotely) possible he didn't / doesn't know of his own, first-hand knowledge?

if those involved are lying to shield him, & he didn't see this 'in person', how would he know?

just bc someone told U something doesn't make it a Fact.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 05:17PM

I reckon it possible he did not know at the time but to remain ignorant now, after decades of accusations and considerable Q15 attention to these matters, is not in my mind plausible.

Put simply, he's not that stupid.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 06:09PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------
>
> Put simply, he's not that stupid.
>

Is it possible we’re not giving him credit?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 20, 2021 01:39PM

I think you've answered your own question.

Oaks is sure BYU was not torturing people during his presidency in the same way that Batement can't find any evidence that the torture occurred at all.

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Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 11:57PM

Leadership roles in an organization that trades in institutional evil is individual evil.

No way around this reality.

You cannot be an honest FBI agent with a corrupt boss, if you choose your comfort and security over the exposure of the corruption. It does not work that way. One of the most useful qualities of a Mormon in institutional evil is the ability to do evil in order to obey the Authority. Regardless of the absurdity. Regardless of the evil. The authority can absolve and justify the evil behavior. One of the true reasons how Mormonism has moved along in spite of its teachings, dogmas, and evils. Suspension of facts to sustain the authority. Oh, and Brigham Young had nothing the do with 3M.

BYU performed institutional evil upon gay men during the Dallin Oaks era—believe DO was oblivious if you must, he was thr leader of an institution performing evil and how was evil brought to account?!?

It was not—the institution rolls along without accountability.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2021 01:02PM by gentlestrength.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 20, 2021 12:31AM

gentlestrength Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Leadership roles in an organization that trades in
> institutional is individual evil.

I think you are missing a second "evil" in that sentence but otherwise you put the point just right. Like the centurion in the gospels, religious leaders are morally responsible for what their subordinates do.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 19, 2021 06:11PM

Dallin Oaks has a very selective memory.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 20, 2021 10:39AM

Regarding whether Oaks really didn't know---I would like to give one more insight into the character of Mr. Oaks. However this has to be listed as hearsay although I did hear it first hand from the person it happened to.

This happened to the editor of the BYU daily paper, "Jane", and is as she related it to me back in the seventies when Dallin was President. Another excerpt from the book:


Jane did tell the one last story I requested since the mood had turned serious: Jane, as I mentioned, was the editor of the university’s daily newspaper, the Daily Universe—how appropriate since the campus is their world. Jane, being the editor and a rather lovely girl with a big heart, took it upon herself to write an article regarding the help that could be obtained at the Brigham Young University health center.

“The brother of one of my best friends had committed suicide by hanging himself in one of the dorms, Helaman Halls, and the same day I came across a sobbing girl who was pregnant and freaking out of her mind because she said she had ‘nowhere to turn.’ I realized in that moment that she did have somewhere to turn, but she just didn’t know it because of the Honor Code attitude that permeated BYU.

“So I wrote an article and published it in the Daily Universe. The gist of the article was that the doctors at the campus health clinic were still doctors, even though they were BYU Mormon doctors, and that the doctor-patient confidentiality assurance still applied. I further indicated that if you were pregnant, had an STD, were having thoughts of suicide because you were gay, or suffering from anything else, psychologically or physically, you could still go to the BYU campus health center and get confidential help.

“I cannot believe how naïve I was. Can you imagine how little was the time that passed after the paper hit the stands before I received my own personal invitation requesting an immediate meeting with the president? He began the meeting something like this:

“‘Miss Jones, at BYU, there are no unwanted pregnancies, there are no STDs, there are no suicides, and there is no homosexuality.’

“I was stunned. I was thinking, did he just say that? Really? I began thinking that the president was too high up the food chain to actually know what goes on at BYU campus at the student level, so I began to earnestly give him examples of the things I knew of personally that had prompted me to publish the article—starting with the suicides and going on from there.

“When I was finished, the president looked at me squarely and said, ‘Miss Jones, at BYU, there are no unwanted pregnancies, there are no STDs, there are no suicides, and there is no homosexuality.’

“Point taken, I do believe! I had gotten the message. .”

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: November 20, 2021 10:46AM

A liar can't change his spots; he just cleverly covers them up.

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Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: November 21, 2021 09:16AM

He advanced the more reliably the lying and sociopathy were manifested. We could use a man like this to do many things.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 20, 2021 11:03AM

This all reminds me of Hinckley's famous denial on national TV with Mike Wallace. "I don't know that we teach that . . ." Wasn't that his way of weasling out of a tough situation?

Feigned ignorance is their Joker is Wild card. Oaks has it down. Bednar is honing his game.

Where did that begin? Your words, not mine?

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Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: November 20, 2021 01:07PM

The only thing more repulsive to me than his gaslighting was how my TBMs selectively ignored or dismissed these words of their prophet.

I was there Gordo and it was doctrine. Know Your Religion Skippy, stand on that Nephite Wall and speak your truth. Yeah, right. BuSiness shill in religious trappings.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: November 20, 2021 01:57PM

You hit the nail on the head of why I left this abusive CULT!
I’d had my doubts some of which I couldn’t reconcile, but I kept them to myself, more or less, but when I heard the so called ‘Prophet of God’ respond to 9-11 by saying, “Oh well! Let’s sing some songs, MoTab Hit It!”

I was floored!

WTAF?!?!?!

Nietzsche was right, God is dead and his “so-called”Prophet is a fncking clown in a GD Circus!

Gordo the Clown Profit was born!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2021 02:02PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: November 21, 2021 01:42PM

https://www.queerty.com/former-mormon-college-leader-denies-school-electrocuted-gay-men-despite-evidence-contrary-20211118

Former Mormon college leader denies school electrocuted gay men despite all evidence to the contrary

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