I have a couple of friends who have always been regular church goers and proclaimed believers. Neither are Mormon although I know some Mormons who are behaving similarly. As they retire, grow older, and start staring the realities of their eventual death in the face, they are becoming scared, depressed, and gloomy with each approaching birthday.

As an agnostic I am fatalistic. My mantra is "What will be will be". I've always known I would grow older, sicker, and eventually die. Why am I not particularly bothered by these facts and they seem to be terrified?

As my parents aged, they did have a lot of illnesses. They were ready to die when they died. In fact, they were lucid and living a "normal" life when they passed. We didn't have any bedside vigils. They died 2 months apart. My dad was still driving to the farm every day. My older disabled brother would go with him so he wasn't alone. They had a cell phone with them.

They both died at 76. I'm 64. With the insane life I've led, I'm ready to die except now I have to face the idea I have to leave my kids behind, so it is up to me to stick around as long was I can.

My dad used to tell me that last year of his life to not be sad when he died as he had had a good life and he was ready to go. I was like, "OF COURSE I'm going to be sad." There are days, most days, I'd give anything to go see them, talk to them.

My dad just didn't like not knowing what was going to happen when he died. Then my SP uncle was horrified of dying. He hung on as long as he could in a nursing home. All my dad's siblings and spouses were in nursing homes. Not my dad. My mom was in for a few days as she had a set back with her rheumatoid arthritis, but she was supposed to go home the next day. She had visitors all day and then left that evening. Her death actually gave me a lot of peace by how she left. She did it on her own terms. Same with my dad.

I still have peace from them I believe. I do believe in an afterlife. That's just me. Even as a mormon I didn't believe anyone saw mormonism like I do and I was definitely NOT A MISSIONARY.

I think it is a mistake to draw conclusions about a group of people just based on the one or two that you know. As a believer who is up in years I have no trepidation about what lies ahead. As you say, what will be will be. My only problem at this stage of life is that there are plenty of things I would like to do that are perhaps crimped by the reality of where I am in life. I am neither scared, depressed, nor gloomy even with a birthday coming up in January.

In addition to religion assuaging fear and helping with the transition to old age and death mentally for some, there is the social network they might depend on for support.

I think some people use religion to help with support when they are old in various ways. They might have mobility, health or loneliness issues. It helps to have people checking on them. They have friends they can trust from church. I have a sister who has zero life outside of anyone from church checking in on her (I have zero life period!). She has other old lady friends at church she can relate to.

There are other ways to get friendship and support outside of religion, but when it has been your whole life, I suppose you stick with what you know.

I will be 86 in January
My philosophy is
When you are here you are here
When you die you are not
I intend to live out the rest ofmy life as I choose and not as a disinterested third paty directs me

As I read this thread, I thought of the lines from the second verse of Kenny Rogers' early 1979 country/pop crossover hit, "The Gambler,":

"Every gambler knows that the secret to surviving
Is knowing what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
Cause every hand's a winner and every hand's a loser
And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep."

I think that for most people, death is a physically painful process where you slowly lose your faculties due to chronic illness or quickly lose them via either a heart attack or stroke. They find themselves in a great deal more pain than they used to be, and the end is just that one last step in that seemingly never-ending cycle of pain. So if religion brings one comfort when facing such pain, then I suppose it's good for that.

The other thing that I thought about when reading this thread was a short story that appeared in Ellery Queen's Mystery Magazine back in the early 1990s, if memory serves. Called "Whistling Women and Crowing Hens," (I can't remember the name of the author), it tells the story of a Southern woman who tries to figure out why the people in her life behave strangely after being shown the contents of a mysterious box. It turns out that the box contains a number of possible endings to one's life, and the people who looked inside it (other than the narrator who laughs at what she sees) realize that they haven't done in their lives what they thought they were going to do and are very disappointed with the ways that their lives have turned out. While the story is a fantasy/mystery, I think there is a lot of truth in people realizing before they die that they never are going to be the people that they thought they would be. They hate themselves and their lives now and they can see no way out of their situations.

While there are a lot of forces out there that prevent us from becoming who we think we should be, I think that one of the most underrated forces is the force of religion. Most of you have seen this with Mormonism (I think) and I have seen this with Roman Catholicism; namely, a superimposed set of cookie cutter beliefs and values about how all people should live and behave towards each other, regardless of our personal strengths, weaknesses, and desires. Anyway, whatever the causes are, I strongly suspect that beyond the fear of death, many of those who hold on to life are hoping against hope that they can find a way to miraculously defy death so that they can try to change their lives to be more fulfilling.

Nice comments.

Like they say, I don't mind dying. I just don't want to be there when it happens.

That's what morphine is for. :)

Religious delusion grew out of a fear of death and the unknown.
Afraid of death? Have I got the perfect solution for you! For the low, low price of 10% of your income, you too can beat death just like Jesus did, miraculously!

Delusion: maintaining erroneous beliefs, despite superior evidence to the contrary.

If you didn’t know how old you are, how old would you be ?

11

There goes the Social Security!

I think he meant 111.

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you didn’t know how old you are, how old
> would you be ?
Too damn

I was hoping to get to be old enough to know better. You'd think with this many age spots I'd be there by now.

Dagny makes a great point. Religion is both ideology and community. There are religions that de-emphasize doctrine and promote empathy and mutual support. This may not be a popular view on RfM (not the first time), but I think those religions, or those subsets of religions, can do a lot of good--especially in increasingly atomistic societies wherein community is hard to find.

Kentish's implied statement about equanimity, peace, acceptance is perhaps related. People have different ways of reconciling themselves to the unfortunate realities of life and death. I've mentioned many times that Buddhism, Taoism, and some other doctrine-lite traditions often serve positive purposes through praxis. There are subsets of Christianity and Islam as well as considerably larger proportions of Jewish traditions that likewise emphasize love, empathy, and a "take no thought for the morrow" acceptance of life and its vagaries as opposed to dubious historical and doctrinal claims.

Others find their meaning and peace in nature, music, poetry, or community service. But for me the question isn't whether one is religious but rather whether one lives a good life as defined in both personal and societal terms. I may think Thor's claim to divinity is every bit as good as YHWH's and that organized religions tend inexorably to focus on power-dynamics that would have appalled a Galilean carpenter, but that does not mean Christianity (or whatever) fails across the board to nurture positive sentiments and virtuous people.

I am a committed and militant agnostic (probably) and have little time for nonsensical factual claims and much less for doctrinaire bigotry. But like any good agnostic (probably), I cannot condemn all religions and all religious. For what ultimately matters is not whether one's character is molded by Pooped's a-religiousity or Kentish's Christianity but rather how those people are as people.

I wouldn't be so anti-religion if all it did was serve the community and provide comfort.

The problem is, anything good they provide is usually linked to complete nonsense and mind-numbing BS. Some of the rituals are resource wasting if not potentially harmful. The tribal nature of religions is not exactly helpful in this day and age either. I wish humans were smart enough to form more support organizations sans the faith BS.

Oh, I'm on your side on most of this. I think the organization of spirituality leads to the usual organizational problems: the power dynamics, the forced conformity, the tendency of bad people to rise in the hierarchy, the subjugation of the individual, etc.

What I am trying to separate out from those general observations is that sometimes religion helps people. A good portion of Judaism comprises congregations of effectively agnostic people who benefit from the community and routinely consider, and advance, the needs of other groups. I've even met people who have benefited from Mormonism, notably some young people from chaotic homes who gained stability and friendships. The balance of good and bad has ineluctably deteriorated since I was LDS--meaning that the exceptional cases I'm discussing are probably much rarer than they once were. But they do exist in various traditions at various times.

I am not saying that religion per se is good: you are undoubtedly correct at the highest level. In my mind religion is always dangerous and becomes more so as it becomes increasingly organized, which is another way of raising the paradox that the best religious groups are those least capable of perpetuating themselves. I'm merely suggesting that there is nuance to the picture, exceptions that prove the rule.

I never learned to drink alcohol, much less smoke, not to mention not seek out things of good report, etc., so there is every likelihood that I will never abandon tribal mormonism, if that can be considered a thing...

But the mormon church can take this job and shove it.

Are you suggesting you have a job?

Well, yeah...

I was never formally released from my mission!









Just kidding. It was yet another meeting during which I lied my ass off. ...and that's the truth.

I told the truth in my post-mission interrogation, which fortuitously meant that I was never asked to give any church speeches.

Honesty truly is the best policy.

Yeah, you're right. Had I told the truth, I would never have been called to be an EQP... I didn't enjoy it; even the mission was a better experience, overall.

Then there's my brother.
He gave me a copy of No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie and then followed up to be sure I read the book.

He was the first to tell me that the Facsimiles in the Book of Abraham had nothing to do with Abraham.

He told me that not only was there no archeological evidence for the Book of Mormon, the available evidence actually contradicted the book.

DNA analysis failed to find Lamanites.

Mormon temple handshakes were Masonic handshakes.

AND YET, when he developed serious health issues and knew the end was near he wanted everyone in the family to know he had a "testimony" .

Not necessarily religion. A religion is just an organization. It’s faith that gives people strength. Even misguided faith can be a powerful placebo.

If a person believes a capsule full of sugar can keep them healthy or cure them. Sometimes that belief or faith actually works.

For a while now I have tried to be a support to someone in prison. There is little other than support that I can give him since unless he gains parole next year he will entering his fifth year of incarceration. In this process my wife and me have become involved with his mother, whom he cared for before going to prison. She is confined to a nursing home and will be 100 years old in early December. We are trying to make the event something special and have some things planned for the day.

She is a devout person. My wife called her this morning to ask how she was doing and her query was met with a response that suggested she was not doing too well and was a bit down. My wife tried to encourage her to look forward to her big day and how special it will be. She replied: "I'd just soon get it over with so I can go home."

I'm not quite sure how this relates but I think at 100 a person is entitled to see life a little differently than us young bucks who still have people to see and places to go.

We mostly discuss death in coherence with living. When we fail to be able to do so, then we are at the door. It seems that the longer the journey is towards that door, religious feelings reduce the anxiety we could feel approaching it.

"Results
The findings suggest that, compared with older adults, feelings of death anxiety are higher among younger and middle-aged people. The results further reveal that a religious sense of hope, but not a general sense of hope, reduces feelings of death anxiety across successively older age-groups."
https://academic.oup.com/psychsocgerontology/article/73/4/696/2632008

I fear opening the door more than what is beyond it. My hopes are with dealing better than I have with death anxiety as I continue my journey towards the door. Religion seems to me to be merely a way to do this indirectly. The direct route is harder in my opinion but it is what I want.

The phrase "being religious" can apply to an immense span of philosophical belief and non-belief (and most definitely can, and often does, include atheism) so parsing this out can be difficult.

I grew up in a family which, at least during my lifetime, accepted reincarnation as a solid, virtually self-evident, fact of life--something along the same belief lines as "believing in gravity." (Although my maternal family had previously identified with middle-of-the-road Protestant Christian beliefs when they were back in the American Midwest and South, once they settled in southern California, their beliefs modified quite substantially-- mostly, in my maternal family, to some permutation of Hinduism/Vedanta/metaphysics.)

When I was converting to Judaism, and then for a few years afterward (when I was a regular speaker to Jewish audiences explaining why non-Jews sought conversion to Judaism, and explaining how the process of conversion to Judaism worked because, at that time, many born Jews did not know), I fairly quickly became aware that some percentage of Jews by choice [means: converts to Judaism] would, at some point, reveal--on a one-by-one basis--that they had Holocaust memories, some of them extremely detailed.

One of my fellow members of the Jewish Speakers Bureau could explain, in amazing detail, exactly what the interior of a Nazi gassing van looked like as it was driving a load of Jews from their village to the place where their then-dead bodies would be dumped. (She had been a child at that time, and she was about what we would call kindergarten age, and this was apparent because she had been learning her Hebrew letters by tracing wooden cut-outs of those letters with her hands.)

There were many other non-Jews with Holocaust memories as well. By that time in post-WWII history, I think most rabbis who individually often functioned as the first Jewish contact for non-Jews who wanted to convert were fully aware of, and accepting of, the apparent fact that many of those who sought to convert to Judaism had been, last time around, Jews who had been murdered during the Holocaust and who now wanted to be accepted back, into the Jewish people. The Jewish word for reincarnation is "gilgul," and I think it would be fair to say that a large percentage of Jews, regardless of what vocabulary they use, believe that gilgul is a reality.

On a practical basis, if a Jew does believe in gilgul (or even thinks that it might be a practical possibility, even if they don't actually "believe"), the question becomes: How do I prepare myself for my next life (after this one) which will most beneficially match with my interests, strengths, inclinations, and weaknesses?

If something like this is how you approach your own aging and death, then your pragmatic outlook will do a whole lot to, in a very positive way, carry you through.

I once read about an elderly woman who had no musical talent at all, yet she spent a considerable amount of her limited finances on music lessons (piano and voice, as I remember) which she practiced "religiously," every day without fail. When she would be asked why she did this, since she couldn't really afford the lessons and she admittedly had "no talent at all," she would answer: "Because next time around, I want to be a [musical] [star]."

If I have my druthers, next time around for me: I want to be born into a loving, upper middle class, Jewish family who will support my individual strong points, and will help me strengthen my weak points, as I am being normally raised as their Jewish child. Parents who will allow me (emotionally, culturally, financially) to be the best I can be in whatever I think is the optimum right choice for me at that time. In the USA right now, there are millions of Jewish kids just like this, and I would very much like to be one of them next time around.

To answer the question: "Does being religious help dealing with death and aging?," my answer is: It often, and usually strongly, depends on which specific religion is under consideration. Some of them: Yes, absolutely. Others of them: Absolutely NO, no way at all!

I don't think it is "being religious" which often counts (in Judaism, there are huge numbers of atheistic, totally non-religious, Jews....plus an entire, well organized, atheistic Jewish "denomination").

Instead, I think this question is often dependent on the specific contents, and the surrounding culture, of the individual religion under consideration.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2021 04:18PM by Tevai.

And as what I consider an interesting aside from one of my favorite books, civilized people want to die in a drug-induced dream while "savages" would rather have control of their death.

In the novel "A Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley, a savage is brought into civilized society and becomes a popular freak eventually killing himself while the mother who was lost among the savages just wants to get hooked back up on a drug called Soma and eventually dies happy having achieved her goal.

Incidentally, most people who have be separated from civilization inevitably wish to return to the society without civilization. That's real life. But the book is worth a read and interesting I think.

I had to read that book for my senior honors English class. It is a book used by the right to show how terrible society would be if ruled by the left (never mind that Alders Huxley was not a rightest).

There was a radio play made of "Brave New World," for CBS back in 1956 (you can hear it on the Internet). Unfortunately, because of the moral standards codes used at the time, there is no context placed on phrases like "orgy-porgy" which are read often in the book in relation to sexual orgies and heard on the radio adaptation with no explanation at all.

Well it was a good incentive to read the actual book.

Based on my experiences ----- experiences with those passed are very helpful in dealing with death. I 'believe' I know what death actually is. As far as aging I sort of take that as a fact if you are going to live a longer life.

I 'predict' aging will be much easier to deal with when the 'technology' that will be introduced within the next 2 years is mass produced. I 'believe' this 'new to us', technology will make living (health wise) much easier. I 'believe' it is worth living for!

What? No links to Nirvana???

You sound a lot like a fellow on my mission who had deluded himself into thinking specific "big things were going to happen", a few months out from when we met him.

He could neither tell us the source of his arcane knowledge, nor what it was - just that it was coming - and if we were only older, then he might consider sharing it with us. Never mind that he was 26 if I remember right.

It was patently ridiculous of course. The time came and went and nothing happened - rather like the Millerites, I daresay.

So if you have some insight to these miracle technologies, it would be more believable to hear what it is you think is going to happen than to speculate that it's coming soon.

Because we don't have flying cars, 200-year life spans, nor the Second Coming of Christ - let alone the first - and predictions without paths are pretty meaningless.

Tyson

You are an incorrigible skeptic. And I respect that very much.

When skeptics are disappointed, it usually doesn't bother us!

I was typing out a reply when I read your 'question' more carefully. I will not respond to stupid and insulting!!!

Oh, what you could have been exposed to, but not with that attitude!

Perhaps if he gave you 10% of his income. . .

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will not respond to
> stupid and insulting!!!

But you will respond with vagueness and vacuity to this thread.

You need to look with your spiritual eyes to see the cattle.

I see eight cows.

It's our loss.

If we had real faith spiritist would doubtless have opened the heavens and shown us nine cows.

And probably God's wife? I wonder why no one has seen her?

In the past spiritist has also spoken of investment insights. So guaranteed stock picks are what I'm hoping for!

Religion made me worry about the afterlife. Neither hell nor heaven sounded good to me. Now that I don't believe in either place I don't worry about dying — only the process.

Oh, and I'll be 70 in a few months. And I had cancer two years ago. So death isn't a some-day-in-the-distant-future thing for me.

Dumping the Mormon cult, freed me from the threat of spending eternity with a Mormon ex-husband who almost murdered me. He beat his other two temple wives, and his children. His father beat him. What a legacy. What a hell of an a Polygamist Celestial Family to be stuck with! Now--that used to scare the daylights out of me.

I'm no longer afraid of the after-life, whatever it is. We have no control over that, or the fact that we will die.

I hate pain, like everyone does. If I have a prolonged illness, all I worked for and saved for will be lost, and that would make me sad.

I would feel a lot better about death, if assisted suicide was legal and approved by my family!'

I turned 61 yesterday! Thanks for those kind words, everybody!

I'm atheist and don't worry about death too much. But I hate the thought of getting ill and incapacitated, and would hate to have to live in aged care. We have Voluntary Assisted Dying legislation in several states here (like in Oregon I believe) so with any luck that will be extended to the point where you can opt out if you get to a certain level of decrepancy(?).

I give thanks (to who??) for my good health and try to use it positively every day, also trying to empathise with those not so blessed. Plenty of people die much younger than me, so I'm already grateful for my lot.

Some of the fear that religious people might have is that, because they believe in an afterlife, they don't know if they are guaranteed a good room - whereas I'm pretty sure of what's ahead; even though I can't comprehend it.

Perhaps true in works based earned place in heaven faiths. Not so much in grace based, free gift heaven based faiths.

I think it depends on the individual person. We've all heard of cases where being religious did not, in fact, take away the fear of death. So, sometimes religion helps, and sometimes it has no effect or possibly even a detrimental effect.

May Swenson, born and bred in Utah, the oldest of nine of a Mormon family, while attending Utah State Agricultural College, is said to have said, “It’s not for me—religion. It seems like a redundancy for a poet.”

That’s a fine thing, the sort of thing that helps me face Death’s good night.

61 here it is odd that this thread is here. I have been in a mental crisis because I woke up and realized I am old. My life review will not be what I would have wanted. I have made so many mistakes and so many selfish decisions. I have grown from when I was 20, but I wish I could go back and do it over with what I know now. Yes..I am afraid to die and scared to see who will greet me.

Any God worth a damn would greet you with all the love in the universe.

If you haven't been kicking children and murdering kittens--you're all good.

Regret is nothing but a story about the past compared to an imagined past. Both are phantoms--they are stealing the present moment which is always good.

I think if we are greeted with anything, it is kindness and understanding.

There is a saying, "when you know better, you do better." You have done better, and ideally you will have many more years to get your life to where you want it to be.

I think that all of us would want to do over certain aspects of our lives.

You have no control over the past. It is gone and unchangeable, but you have control over the future, however long it may be, and you can shape that any way you wish. 61 is hardly old in terms of today's aging where more and more people are living into their 90s. I still hate the idea of being "elderly" or even "senior" (I hate even worse the British classifier of pensioner) and I have 20 years on you.

@kentish -Thank you so much. And you are correct. For me praying has helped a lot. Thank you again.

I like the term "old".

oldpobot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I turned 61 yesterday! Thanks for those kind
> words, everybody!
>
> I'm atheist and don't worry about death too much.
> But I hate the thought of getting ill and
> incapacitated, and would hate to have to live in
> aged care. We have Voluntary Assisted Dying
> legislation in several states here (like in Oregon
> I believe) so with any luck that will be extended
> to the point where you can opt out if you get to a
> certain level of decrepancy(?).
>
> I give thanks (to who??) for my good health and
> try to use it positively every day, also trying to
> empathise with those not so blessed. Plenty of
> people die much younger than me, so I'm already
> grateful for my lot.
>
> Some of the fear that religious people might have
> is that, because they believe in an afterlife,
> they don't know if they are guaranteed a good room
> - whereas I'm pretty sure of what's ahead; even
> though I can't comprehend it.

My dad wanted to opt-out and take the assisted suicide route but really (as it turned out) he just needed someone to listen. That person happened to be me. It wasn't my local LDS siblings that stayed around during the last few months required some constant assistance.
Pretty evil behavior to cause a care team manager to want to (sudden vacation) quit. I don't blame her, my dad's kids just wouldn't participate.

I got to hear two phrases a whole lot over those few months when fetching a hot washcloth. Thanks Joe. Here's a couple of pieces of ice. Thanks Joe. Here, cover your shoulders. Thanks Joe.
Want a warm towel? Thanks Joe.

The other one was repeated over and over and over again just like the first one.
Joe, when do you sleep?
Don't worry about it dad.

Where I get such life giving non-substance is partially in the freedom found when leaving MormØŽism, same as if I left Scientology, the crazy Jehovahs Wittnesses too but there's something more.

I took a break after leaving, a nice break but then, then I hung out with an older gentleman named William.

You leave (FGS) behind and learn Christ, the living Christ who fought and won the war over the Law, while Rome was at their pinnacle and while nobody could listen but barely a few.
Something can happen to you too.
Hold that hand when the all consuming darkness shuts your eyes and removes all remaining breath. Holding one hand and none other as the hot coals or curtain of fire comes.
You dropped fear, guilt and shame long long ago and it was life giving, it still is.

I agree with Kathleen below.

Sometimes it isn't how nice you are or how much you are appreciated or who likes you and who doesn't in your family. What ultimately matters is doing the right thing at the right time for people. It is going to be extremely difficult. It is going to change all your plans. It will not be appreciated. But giving at that level to another person is the most noble thing I can think of.

Never mind religious beliefs, what people own, what people are entitled to, or what externally matters in the courts of your people's opinions. Being there for another human being when they need it most. That is admirable to me.

That was very moving, Joseph. What a wonderful son you are.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2021 08:22PM by kathleen.

Is that what I see looming on the horizon?