I think the old thread will be closed now that it's reached 60 posts but I thought the last couple posts epiphanies made were rather stimulating for more conversation.

epiphanes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for this! I read the CES Letter years ago
> but should go back and brush up.
>
> Regarding the Book of Mormon being "anti-Mormon,"
> I've seen other commentators post that few Mormons
> know what the text actually says. In your
> experience, is that true? Do people end up leaving
> because the book is obviously a fraud? Or because
> it pretty blatantly contradicts current LDS
> doctrines? I would appreciate your thoughts on
> this.


Myanswer would be "not exactly". As someone with ADHD, I never made it fully through the BoM in record enough time to critically remember and assess all of the contradictions. Half the time, I would read it steadily every day for a few months then not at all for 6, then pick it back up where I left off for a month of reading, etc. I don't know if it was as numbing and boring to others as it was to me but I know it was commonly stated as a goal my peers were striving for(with varied success) so I never really thought of the issue as an ADHD problem.

There are certain places in it that are highlighted as " not right". Like Joseph Smith's prophecy about himself within the story always made me feel kinda funny. Like, that seems like something an egotistical conman would do. But others around me thought it was testifying of his destiny to do this work and such.

Another that never sat well was the Jaredites journey across the sea in airtight gravity-defying submarines full of people and animals and no way to steer or navigate. If you think critically about any of the details given, it all falls apart.

Tight like unto a drum

pa rum pa pum pum.

Okay--it's dish, but still funny.

windows in the submarine ...


Snowflakes in the jambalaya ...


narrow necks and big waters ...


canned fruitcakes at the birth of the Messiah ...

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> canned fruitcakes at the birth of the Messiah ...

LOL for real? Please tell me the verse for this, nothing came up when I googled it.

Exactly 50% of what I post is made up.

I could up it to 75%, were it not for The Cat's propensity for premature ejacupostery . . .

What's a mo-fo to do?

When I was a missionary I came up with calling attractive Caribbean women "Jaredites" because they were "like unto a dish."

Needless to say it caught on with the other fellas.

blackcoatsdaughter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There are certain places in it that are
> highlighted as " not right". Like Joseph Smith's
> prophecy about himself within the story always
> made me feel kinda funny. Like, that seems like
> something an egotistical conman would do. But
> others around me thought it was testifying of his
> destiny to do this work and such.
>
> Another that never sat well was the Jaredites
> journey across the sea in airtight gravity-defying
> submarines full of people and animals and no way
> to steer or navigate. If you think critically
> about any of the details given, it all falls
> apart.

I've never actually sat down to read the Book of Mormon but I'm familiar with its general storyline. I knew it says there were other people in the Americas before Nephi and his crew arrived ... but I didn't realize it says they came here in airtight submarines. Haha really? I guess Joseph Smith thought it would have been too obvious if he had copied the appearance and dimensions of Noah's ark.

Not really hard to believe that megalomaniac like Joseph Smith would have prophesied his own birth in the Book of Mormon either. I just looked up the passage - cringey for sure. I've also heard Mormons say that the Book of Mormon foretells the coming of Christopher Columbus. This, they say, is proof of its authenticity ... but all it really shows is that it was written long after the events it putatively describes.

There are so many anachronisms and absurdities in the Book of Mormon - it's really a testament to Joseph Smith's fertile but uneducated mind.

epiphanes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormons say that the Book of Mormon foretells the
> coming of Christopher Columbus.

To a degree but not by name. This is actually more cringy to me than self referencing Smith.

What I've learned about Columbus and others is horrific and obviously Mormon God inspired them to slaughter and torture evil Lamanites.

I'm probably the wrong person to respond, because I was skeptical of the BoM back to at least middle school. I grew up around a lot of European immigrants, and it was obvious to me that European languages were related, even fairly distant ones, like English and Russian. I wondered why there weren't traces of Hebrew in indigenous American languages. Or decimal numeration, used by the Hebrews. Or a 7 day week. or, or, or,,,,, Then eventually along came DNA, though I was convinced the BoM was fiction before that happened.

The BoM is so obviously fake to us, and to the outside world, or that part of the outside world that considers it worth having an opinion on, that I am puzzled as to why any TBMs actually buy the story.

All I can assume is that they compartmentalize and don't ask themselves "is this even remotely plausible?"

But then we have discovered that are a great many people who do not think evidence is important. It is an obstacle for clever people to get around.

     Yes, but it could be a True Fake!

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm probably the wrong person to respond, because
> I was skeptical of the BoM back to at least middle
> school. I grew up around a lot of European
> immigrants, and it was obvious to me that European
> languages were related, even fairly distant ones,
> like English and Russian. I wondered why there
> weren't traces of Hebrew in indigenous American
> languages. Or decimal numeration, used by the
> Hebrews. Or a 7 day week. or, or, or,,,,, Then
> eventually along came DNA, though I was convinced
> the BoM was fiction before that happened.

This is one of the first things I brought up in high school when I began to engage with Mormons for the first time. If the indigenous populations of the Americas are actually descended from Israelites, then why are there no linguistic or cultural links between the New World and the Middle East? They tried to tell me that "things change over thousands of years..."

Of course they do! But just because differences emerge doesn't mean that the root disappears. Languages from the Bay of Bengal to the English Channel still have similarities despite the fact that that the Indo-European migrations occurred more than 4000 years ago. Similarly, no one has spoken Latin as a vernacular tongue in over 1500 years - yet languages across Europe are obviously descended from it.

Moroni supposedly died in what ... the early 5th century AD? That means a little more than a millennium would have separated Moroni and Columbus. Given my above examples demonstrating that real-life linguistic commonalities have survived for much longer than that, Hebrew traits should still be present in at least some indigenous languages. Given the fact that native languages were well-known among Europeans even in Joseph Smith's time, I'm surprised none of his contemporaries pointed this out.

There's a reasonably good chance that at some stage, "chiasmus" may be raised as "strong evidence" that the BOM is an ancient document and Hebrew in origin. That subject has been discussed here before.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2188104

Also see this article for a deconstruction of this "amazing" example of chiasmus -

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V38N04_105.pdf

Mordor, not logged in Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's a reasonably good chance that at some
> stage, "chiasmus" may be raised as "strong
> evidence" that the BOM is an ancient document and
> Hebrew in origin. That subject has been discussed
> here before.
>
> https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2188104
>
>
> Also see this article for a deconstruction of this
> "amazing" example of chiasmus -
>
> https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads
> /sbi/articles/Dialogue_V38N04_105.pdf

A literary device found in ancient Hebrew texts also appears in the Book of Mormon ... so what? Western authors have been influenced by the Bible for 2000 years! All the presence of chiasmus in Book of Mormon shows is that Joseph Smith was familiar with the Scripture and borrowed extensively from it.

Doesn't the same book in which the chiasmus appears (Alma) also quote whole chapters word for word from the King James translation of Isaiah? Yeah, real convincing.

Exactly. I always thought the chiasmus argument was incredibly weak, right up there with "the BoM itself says it would be translated by someone named Joseph. How do you explain that, smart guy?"

Also, epiphanes, people seem very critical of what your goals are for meeting with the missionaries but I think what you're doing is fine. Folks get so sensitive about anti-Mormons challenging missionaries because they think it's a waste of time or they are protective of these vulnerable kids.

The fact of the matter is, they are unprotected and unprepared and have been brainwashed by who? Yet they are out there on our doorways as a representative for the church trying to bring in more victims. They may be victims themselves but it's all the more reason to give them a confronting experience, to plant seeds if you can.

I'm 30. I've lost the fun and independence and chance to make growing mistakes from my younger years. I really wish someone had planted more critical thinking seeds in me much earlier.

I think people forget that the church organization is the enemy. These young people deserve to be saved, to be set free from it. They've been brainwashed and emotionally traumatized. So, the release will be painful. Asking them about inconsistencies in the BoM over a freaking meal isn't harmful or malicious. In fact, someone coming here and asking for advice on how to best get through to these guys is pretty noble.

Thank you for your kind words, thegoodman.

I know this isn't a popular opinion around here - but I actually have enormous respect for these young men for being willing to spend two years of their lives in service to something greater than themselves. We of course know that what they serve is a corporate enterprise founded by a perverted conman and sustained by lies ... even still, I have to admire their dedication.

Although the missionaries themselves are victims of Joseph Smith's fraud, we cannot overlook the fact that they are actively seeking to recruit others who will be similarly victimized. I intend to firmly yet charitably expose the absurdities of Mormon history and doctrine. I'm not expecting a miracle - all I'm hoping for is that the missionaries begin to seriously reflect on what exactly they're peddling.

Lastly, I'm not going to deny the possibility that what I have to say might be painful for them to hear - but as you noted, they're adults who are out in the world representing their religion. If they really "know" that Joseph Smith was a prophet they should be prepared to defend that assertion. We shall see ... At the very least, they'll get a good dinner out of their encounter with me.

> I actually have enormous respect
> for these young men for...willing
> to spend two years of their lives
> in service to something greater
> than themselves.


    I don't think I'm going to be the only one to rise to this bait; not that you intended it as such...

    I doubt it's possible to get an honest assessment regarding how many Priests received the Melchizedek priesthood because they yearned to give service to something greater than themselves.

    It's a rite of passage.  And not every Kalahari Bushman who goes out to kill his lion as his rite of passage is thinking to himself, "Oh boy, this is going to be so neat!"

    We'll never have the data to support an unequivocal finding, but from my personal experience, a lot fewer than 50% of the Elders I got to know would fall into "yearning to give service to something greater than themselves."  I sure as hell didn't.


  

epiphanes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I know this isn't a popular opinion around here -
> but I actually have enormous respect for these
> young men for being willing to spend two years of
> their lives in service to something greater than
> themselves. We of course know that what they serve
> is a corporate enterprise founded by a perverted
> conman and sustained by lies ... even still, I
> have to admire their dedication.
>
> Although the missionaries themselves are victims
> of Joseph Smith's fraud, we cannot overlook the
> fact that they are actively seeking to recruit
> others who will be similarly victimized. I intend
> to firmly yet charitably expose the absurdities of
> Mormon history and doctrine. I'm not expecting a
> miracle - all I'm hoping for is that the
> missionaries begin to seriously reflect on what
> exactly they're peddling.
>
> Lastly, I'm not going to deny the possibility that
> what I have to say might be painful for them to
> hear - but as you noted, they're adults who are
> out in the world representing their religion. If
> they really "know" that Joseph Smith was a prophet
> they should be prepared to defend that assertion.
> We shall see ... At the very least, they'll get a
> good dinner out of their encounter with me.

We love the mishies too! Sure we bust their caps pretty hard here from time to time but that is mainly a show to support the former LDS missionaries maybe still licking their wounds.

We'll be sure to try and lift up a prayer for you epiphanes, you certainly have noble cause.
About the best thing I can tell you is God will not be blocked, he can and will reach through the fog of deception, and addiction, and abuse, and crisis to succeed.

I am proof.

  
> I am proof.


  Not up there with Everclear, but certainly got some proofiness working for ya!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>   
> > I am proof.
>
>   Not up there with Everclear, but certainly got
> some proofiness working for ya!

Maybe 100% proof, maybe not ..