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Posted by: epiphanes ( )
Date: February 02, 2022 02:50PM

Hey Everyone,

I'm currently involved in discussions with LDS missionaries and have recently finished reading the Book of Mormon. I plan to do a more thorough write-up of my impressions of the Book of Mormon and interactions with the missionaries at some point in the future. However, I wanted to ask former Mormons ... how did you deal with the fact that the Book of Mormon contradicts many current LDS doctrines while you were still members?

Here are some examples of what I'm talking about:

(1) The Book of Mormon teaches that there is one god, who is eternal and unchanging. This runs counter to current LDS teaching that there are many gods who were once ordinary people.

(2) The Book of Mormon teaches that Christ is both the Father and the Son, as well as the only begotten son of the Father. This is actually a misunderstanding of the Trinity called Modalism, but nonetheless contradicts current LDS beliefs that Christ and the Father are separate deities and that Christ is merely the firstborn of the Father's innumerable spirit children.

(3) The Book of Mormon contains several references to the "fallen nature" of humanity. This appears to reflect the doctrine of Original Sin, which is repudiated by the modern LDS Church.

(4) The Book of Mormon expressly condemns polygamy ... need I say more?

(5) The Book of Mormon contains several polemics against secret societies and the "signs and combinations" used by such groups. How do Mormons interpret these passages in light of Joseph Smith's well-known involvement with Freemasonry?

It's obvious to me that Joseph Smith (with assistance from others) originally wrote the Book of Mormon to reflect beliefs commonly held by Protestants in early 19th century America. Although many of these doctrines were jettisoned as Mormonism continued to develop in the years after the Book of Mormon was published, the Book of Mormon itself remained as the foundational scripture of the LDS Movement.

So, I ask again ... what do Mormons think of the Book of Mormon passages that contradict the current teachings of the LDS Church? Are they even aware of them? Since Mormons believe that the English version was delivered to Joseph Smith by God, the usual excuse of "translation error" doesn't apply. I would appreciate your input on these matters since I plan to bring them up with the missionaries at our next meeting. Thanks!

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: February 02, 2022 03:13PM

>> So, I ask again ... what do Mormons think of the Book of Mormon passages that contradict the current teachings of the LDS Church? <<

They ignore it.

They say that isn't what it means, you're interpreting it wrong.

They say that it isn't to be worried about in this life, it will all be sorted out after we die.

They might site a church apologetic answer to explain it away.

On a rare occasion, a seed might be planted that gets them questioning....if they go to their Bishop or other leaders and ask about it, they are told one or more of the above and they'll get back in line and stop questioning.

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: February 02, 2022 05:45PM

To quote Mark Twain:

"The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie." (I read this today on Facebook from a Steve Benson cartoon)

TBMs don't care about about your valid arguments. It doesn't matter to them. The church is true! They'll politely tell you that they don't have all the answers but they KNOW the Mormon church is true, and if you will only ask in a prayer if it is true, you will (maybe) have a warm feeling that is proof that it is true. If you don't have a warm feeling you did something wrong. Maybe you didn't have "real intent."

Congratulations for reading the entire book of Mormon. During my mission only one "investigator" read the entire book. In my 20+ years as a TBM, including an 18 month Mormon mission, I only managed to read all the way through it twice. Both times it took me over a year to get through it. It was the most tedious reading experience of my life.

To directly answer your question, no, I don't think Mormons are aware of any contradictions with the BoM and the current LDS teachings. If you point anything out to them they'll have an answer for you. You won't stump them. You won't impress them. You seem to think you will get them to think but you won't.

Maybe you can tell us, after your last meeting with the missionaries, if your arguments and efforts accomplished anything.

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Posted by: blackcoatsdaughter ( )
Date: February 02, 2022 06:47PM

Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug, man. It never occurred to me that there were contradictions. As per the specific ones you've brought up:

1. The existence of the prophet is for the express purpose of receiving "continuing revelation" in these latter days. So, in general, this will effectively discount each of the points you brought up. But as far as unchanging specifically goes, it's not god that changes nor his plan. More of his plan is revealed to us at different times, when we are ready to receive the upgrades to the unchanging plan. The "more than one gods" thing is a contradiction in many Christian religions who pray to Saints or angels or dead people to watch over them because there's all these supernatural entities out there that can be contacted by humanity for the purpose of affecting the state of things in our lives and on this earth. The multiple gods thing is revealed in the extra chapters of the BoM called the Pearl of Great Price, so, technically it IS a part of Mormon scripture. Just not the BoM itself. They also get around the multiple gods by using the caveat: there's only one god you're supposed to WORSHIP. So, sure, there are lots of gods but the important thing is you only bow to the one, the Father.

2. Continuing revelation and "that's not what it means" interpretation.

3. No. The fallen nature of humanity is the reason we sin. They don't believe Adam and Eve's sin is ours but that they opened the gate for sin to be possible. It's an "anti-other Christians propaganda" wording. Other churches supposedly think each person alive has to pay the price for what Adam ad Eve did. Mormons are like, "Not us. Adam and Eve merely made us sinful by nature by opening the gates to death and pain by eating that fruit(which had the special pain and death program in it)". The fallen nature of us is the whole reason for Christ's sacrifice. Adam and Eve did the thing according to plan so now we need a Savior from what they did. All the plan of happiness.

4. Continuing revelation. Those specific people in the BoM were told not to do polygamy. But God will allow polygamy for certain people at certain times. See? Anything literally goes when God can make any rule at any specific time and there's a guy that speaks for him. It's moral because the guy who speaks for God said so.

5. Freemasonry was taught as the fallen original temple ceremony from Solomon's temple. That was literally what I was taught. Over time, just like translations of the Bible, over time Freemasonry was altered to be what it was in JS's time and the rituals and ordinances had to be restored to their original form. Then over time, the church has also received revelation that certain aspects of the temple ceremonies had to be changed and altered. Not because crucial things were being lost. No, of course not! Continuing revelation. That's what that is. These ordinances had to be fully restored so that they could be changed over time again.

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Posted by: blackcoatsdaughter ( )
Date: February 02, 2022 06:51PM

It's hard to explain or justify the way the beliefs work... I mean, I can sit here all day and tell you the twisty knots your head does in order to have devotion and faith in Mormonism, to the point where ANY changes at all are just accepted because obedience is a virtue. I can look back plainly and see what an idiot I was...it seems so obvious now. Even explaining what I used to believe, it feels like if I were using my head at all, it should have been more clear to me than it ever was. But it wasn't.

It's about being brainwashed from a very young age for those of us BIC. Try not to judge too harshly.

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Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: February 02, 2022 10:47PM

I have a list of Mormon teachings and practices that are contrary to the BoM:

"The Book of Mormon vs. Mormonism"
http://packham.n4m.org/bomvslds.htm

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: February 02, 2022 11:12PM

You might as well ask a North Korean about the contradictions of the Kim family.

When I was TBM, the church was perfect. Questioning was pointless. The prophet spoke for God and that was that. I should have won a gold medal in mental gymnastics. Mormons live in a bubble. You can see in but they can't see out.

The edifice was perfect, but when I looked closely there were cracks. Why are there cracks? There aren't supposed to be cracks. That's when it all came tumbling down.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: February 02, 2022 11:22PM

Can't say in my experience that "other churches" teach that believers have to "pay the price" of Adam and Eve's sin, except in the sense of inheriting their fallen sinful nature. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point but Christian churches I know teach we will be judged on our own sin not theirs.

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Posted by: thegoodman ( )
Date: February 03, 2022 06:34AM

Cccccccc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2022 06:34AM by thegoodman.

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Posted by: I ( )
Date: February 02, 2022 11:29PM

It doesn't support anything...
But TSCC/ Mormons support it
(Because "the 'church'" does)
They do as the 'church' does
Because they make up "the 'church'"
Since "the 'church'" is made up

Meet The Mormons...
On your "mission"

You can leave when you've grown or thrown a ball or two-

BTW, what is the bomb (spell check spells it that way. It stands for book of Mormon Bs) about anyway?

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 03, 2022 02:28AM

Mormons will reply to item 1 that there is one God for this planet. Also, Eternal is one of the names of God, but that doesn’t mean that he was God infinitely far back in time.

They have an answer for everything.

Christians and Moslems believe in one god per universe. Mormons believe in one god per planet. Hindus believe in one god per village or family. There is zero objective evidence that indicates which of those hypotheses is correct.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 03, 2022 02:47AM

In Alma, it says that people don't repent after they die (or deathbed repentance)

So,


What's the point of 'doing work for the dead'?

In the D&C, it says that restitution must be 4 X the value of items wrongfully taken...

So, if you didn't complete restitution before you die....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2022 02:49AM by GNPE.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: February 03, 2022 10:00AM

IMO, this is not different from what happens with other religions and their holy writs.

Christians ignore or re-purpose whatever they need to do from the Bible. Over time, I don't even think it bothers them. It's the same with the Koran which says some awful things the average believer simply doesn't acknowledge.

Mormons will come up with reasons why this or that isn't important. It's predictable. They are on the wrong side of history every step of the way and they never seem to catch on.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: February 03, 2022 10:30AM

That is because it is a 19th century poorly written,highly plaigerized work of fiction

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: February 03, 2022 12:48PM

Like water is wet, TBM's will believe TSCC is true, no matter what.

Unless their doctrine becomes "Water is dry", then apologists will explain why that is a fact.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 03, 2022 12:55PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2022 12:56PM by anybody.

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Posted by: nli ( )
Date: February 03, 2022 10:42PM

A very revealing book on Mormon doctrine (by a BYU professor!) follows the development and many changes in Mormon doctrine over the years. How he got away with it is a mystery to me.

Highly recommended:

"This Is My Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology

Author: Charles R. Harrell
Publisher: Greg Kofford Books
ISBN13: 9781589581036
Price: $34.95

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 04, 2022 10:37AM

Interesting book review...

https://www.mrm.org/this-is-my-doctrine

Introduction

Although it’s a book that was released back in 2011, “This is My Doctrine”: The Development of Mormon Theology is a resource that I keep coming back to in order to cite its pages. Why? This book, which was written by a faithful Latter-day Saint, offers an overall honest historical treatment of how Mormon theology came to be. It’s a resource that every serious Latter-day Saint—and Evangelical Christian who is interested in understanding Mormon doctrine, for that matter—ought to consider reading. I won’t pretend to agree with everything that Harrell writes. In fact, we probably disagree more than we agree when it comes to doctrine. Still, I think it’s worth the time and effort to read.

A little bit about Charles R. Harrell

Before he wrote this book, I had never heard of Charles R. Harrell. However, here’s what I know now:

He was a professor in the School of Technology (not the School of Religion) at Brigham Young University in Provo, UT, the flagship school for the LDS Church, until he retired in 2016. He mainly taught second-year college classes.
According to his “Rate My Professor” page, Harrell was known mostly for being “lecture heavy” and a “tough grader”–this is typical for scholars who require the best work from students, and lot’s of it! (So quit complaining and do your work, students! ;0 ) One recent student post reads, “He’s a nice guy, but his class is terrible. His lectures consist of two hours of rambling and 90% of what he says is not on the tests. Weekly reflections are pretty easy. His tests are fairly difficult though, so study the reviews like crazy. Don’t waste your time going to class, most people didn’t. I only went a few times and did just fine.” This is just one of many similar reviews on the site.
He’s a faithful Latter-day Saint–otherwise, he would not be allowed to teach at BYU.

As far as I can tell by reading his book (twice), Harrell is honest as he covers the development of Mormon theology, even if the vast majority of Latter-day Saints will undoubtedly not like what he has to say. However, he feels that there is room for disagreement when it comes to one’s take on Mormon doctrine and doesn’t want to appear dogmatic. He writes on page 502:

“Significantly, the doctrines the Church expects its members to embrace for temple worthiness are fairly basic and few in number, and the Church has been restored and continues to be guided by a living prophet. Beyond these core professions of belief, Saints presumably have some latitude in what they can believe. . . . Differing views or reluctance to go with the status quo on non-essential doctrines is no more an indication of a weak or underdeveloped testimony than indiscriminate acceptance of all popularly held LDS doctrines is a sign of a mature testimony.”

Harrell’s attitude seems to be, “Go ahead and disagree with me, that’s fine. And go ahead and believe doctrine that differs from mine. You have that freedom.” Because he has a pluralist mentality—meaning that he sees the good in other religions as long as the adherents are guided by a sincere desire for good—Harrell doesn’t seem to mind contradicting the current theological mindsets of the general authorities who guide his church. And he doesn’t think the Mormon should hold an air of “doctrinal superiority” over those who do not belong to his church. He writes on page 503:

“Since its inception, many Mormons have taken an exclusivist stance towards other belief systems, acknowledging that, while other religions have a portion of the truth (mingled with error), only Mormonism contains the full and undiluted truth. This has sometimes led to feelings, and certainly an external perception, of doctrinal superiority and elitism among Latter-day Saints. But if Mormon theology is itself still evolving and partially reflects the imperfect understanding of its expounders, the fallacy of theological exclusivity should be apparent. There is nothing wrong with proclaiming one’s church to be ‘true’ in the sense of it being sanctioned and even led by God, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that all the doctrines taught in the church are ipso facto the absolute truth. And even if Mormonism does possess more of the correct pieces of the theological puzzle than other religions, it certainly doesn’t warrant an attitude of theological exclusivity or superiority.”

The problem with his thinking is that Mormonism is founded on the idea that “all” the churches that were in existence in 1820, when the First Vision of God the Father and Jesus supposedly took place, were wrong. When Joseph Smith asked God which church was true, he was supposedly told by God in Joseph Smith—History 1:19:

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

The beginning of the next verse (20) states, “He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.” If Mormonism is true in its teaching, then anything that the Evangelical Christian has to say should be taken with a grain of salt. After all, no doctrine held by a Bible-believing Christian could be correct if God actually did tell Smith that the Christians were wrong and that “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight.” While it may be politically correct for a Mormon to aim at ecumenism and a declaration that the doctrines espoused by Evangelical Christians are “true” too, God the Father—as reported by Joseph Smith—would disagree.

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Posted by: I ( )
Date: February 04, 2022 02:03PM

Are you really a missionary?
Writing with your 3rd hand?

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: February 04, 2022 04:48PM

You ask, are members even aware of the contradictions and discrepancies? My experience is that Mormons are aware of very little. The Mormon experience is one of coming to church in alpha state, where you just sit back and quasi-listen, putting in the time to have it go in one ear and right out the other. Church leaders have, in fact, signaled that that's what they want, and that it reflects being a good member. My experience is that Mormons know jack-shit about their own church, nor do they care to. Too hard, especially when the leaders hope you won't know about your own church.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 04, 2022 06:24PM

I’ve actually had Mormons tell me they don’t care if it’s true or not, it works for them and their family and that’s good enough for them.
And I believe them.
Of course the Mormon who told me that was later convicted for running a huge Ponzi scheme and had his stock broker license revoked by the FTC, lol

https://dfi.wa.gov/documents/securities-orders/S-03-009-03-SC01.pdf

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 05, 2022 11:39AM

The biggest miracle of the Book of Mormon is that there's a group of about 16 million people, who read these extremely racist passages every week and think it sounds like a loving God,

“…there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people…” (Moses 7:8).

“…they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them” (Moses 7:22).

“From Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.” …and the lineage of Cain was “cursed…as pertaining to the priesthood” (Abraham 1:24, 26-27).

1 Nephi 12:23 – “…they [the Lamanites] became a dark and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.”

1 Nephi 13:15 – “…they [the righteous Nephites] were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.”

2 Nephi 5:21 – “God caused the cursing to come upon them [the Lamanites]…they were white…that they might not be enticing unto my people [the righteous Nephites] …God did cause a skin of Blackness to come upon them.”

2 Nephi 30:6 – “…they shall be a white and delightsome people.” (Original 1830 edition, prior to edit, which now reads “a pure and delightsome people.”)

Alma 3: 6-19 – “And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression…” Later in the text, the Lamanites turn to the doctrine of Christ and their dark-skin curse is reversed.

3 Nephi 2:15 – “…curse was taken from them…skin became white like unto Nephites.”

Jacob 3:5, 8, 9 – “Behold the Lamanites…whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins…that their skins will be whiter than yours…revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins.”

3 Nephi 2:15 – “And their curse was taken from them [the repentant Lamanites], and their skin became white…”

Mormon 5:15 – “…and [the wicked Lamanites] shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us…”

Institutionalized racism is alive and well in America and around the world, as long as everybody thinks it's perfectly acceptable for an institution to publish and distribute the most racist (white supremacist) scriptures on the planet with the world's largest army of cult recruiters with a slush fund of $100Billion for a big welcome home Jesus party after Earth turns into a sun again.

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Posted by: I ( )
Date: February 06, 2022 01:00PM

Well, at least you do, having the missingaries over, using the book of morose...

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