While reading a post by Done&Done on another thread where he mentioned "wonder bread and tap water" as the standard fare in sacrament, I suddenly wondered whether the wonderbread is imposed.

For example, in France our bread is so fantastic (not only baguettes, but nevertheless...) that it seems sacrilege to use wonderbread.

Are there any RMs (or others here) who went to sacrament in France and can set my mind at rest on this question? Any wonderbread substitutions in other countries? Does the D&C have anything to say on the matter? ;-)

“And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them so long as they use Wonder Bread for Sacrament. No French Bread as that crusty deliciousness would cause enjoyment and I the Lord will not abide enjoyment.” (D&C 89:18–21--sort of).

"P.S. And no Perrier either!"


When I was a kid my friend Laurie and I got caught rolling our Wonder Bread into little balls and taking it like a pill when the water came around. Hard to do with a crusty baguette.

You'd think two years of taking the sacrament in France would be unforgettable, but I honestly have no idea what we regularly used for bread for the sacrament.

I'm inclined to think it was regularly whatever came from the bakery - baguette, bâtard, ficelle, baton, boule, etc. - but those also tended to dry out fast, so it might have occasionally been some kind of "pain de mie".

I'm curious to hear what other people remember.

Tyson

Thanks Tyson. I'd forgotten or didn't know you'd been "called" to France ;-)

And having said nice things about French bread, I'll officially record my opinion of "pain de mie": it's the only type of French bread which is not worth trying. ;-)

Of course, tastes may vary.

Soft Machine Wrote:
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> I'll officially record my opinion of "pain de
> mie": it's the only type of French bread which is
> not worth trying. ;-)

Absolutely typical, then, that that's the one the church would choose. :/

You guys are making me hungry. No breakfast yet.

I moved recently and in my new area cannot find decent French bread anywhere. Makes me want to move back!

The crust has to be crusty. The middle has to be fat and the ends pointy. The bread itself has to taste French. Sliced thick. BC butter and UK jam.

How hard could that be? :)

Hope all is well in Paris, TiP.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2022 03:13PM by Nightingale.

Well, you must be easy to please!

Sounds like heaven, Nightingale, but I'm avoiding the butter at the moment - I have (more than) a few kilos to lose at the moment!

I don't know about France, but I've been in wards where people wanted to show off their bread making skills and take advantage of some free advertising...

But most of the time, it isn't even Wonder bread. It's the lowest cost processed white bread on the shelf. Because Jesus deserves the very best, unless it's being paid for by those who have already been tithed too heavily.

"Jesus deserves the very best" Laughing for some reason.

The bread we broke up for sacrament meeting was whatever was cheapest...but it hit the spot on F&T Sunday for a starving kid

Never experienced it but I am sure it was more hygienic than bread in an LDS sacrament meeting broken by young grubby hands.

There were teachers preparing sacrament in that little room who would imitate pizza pie chefs. They would toss the bread high into the air and try to catch it in the trays. Often it landed on the floor. Sometimes it got stuck in the ceiling light fixtures.

And before you trounce the Wonder Bread. I had a bishop who thought white bread was atrociously unhealthy so we were mandated to bring 100% wheat bread. At the time most families did not eat wheat bread. So someone would have to dig out a loaf from their freezer. Because it was frozen solid, it was "nuked" in the microwave. I have terrible memories of eating frozen-burnt bread. Down right nasty.

One prominent family became livid with the bishop and his wheat bread or nothing sacrament. Perhaps one of them had a food allergy. Anyhow they would stand up after the sacrament prayer was read. I am pretty sure that we were told to offer them the sacrament but ignore their protest over wheat bread. The following bishop never made a deal about bread and even allowed a non gluten variety to be blessed to a family with food allergies.

I assume you mean whole wheat bread? I have a nifty bread machine, and make all-whole wheat breads with various grains and add-ins. Much healthier, and delicious.
BTW, most supermarket "whole wheat" bread is mostly refined white flour with very modest amounts of whole wheat, sometimes darkened so it appears to be...somewhat "whole grain."

Soft Machine Wrote:
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>> Which a Church of England communion wafer certainly didn't

As a young Catholic child, I was told that the communion wafer was not to be chewed, but instead dissolved on your tongue. What they didn't tell me is that the wafer tastes like cardboard. I couldn't get it off my tongue fast enough. Yuk!

On a rare Sunday at scout camp, we used club crackers.

Why rare?

The stake president went thru the roof! No more camping in on Saturday evening to prepare for Monday scout activities. And non LDS troops arrived on Sunday- which we as Mormons were forbidden.

So we arrived late to camp on Monday morning (got the worst camp site) next to the trash dumpster- smelly, flies and bees all week. Had to make a mad dash to the assigned merit badges- usually chewed out for not being punctual. Then after dinner, scrambling to set up the tent before engulfed in darkness.

I believe in Germany in the 70s we used toast brot. Which was the closest thing to Wonderbread they had in Germany. It was a sliced white bread that would fit in a toaster.

In scouts when we went on a long campout we would use pilot biscuits for the sacrament. They're sort of like a cracker.

One Sunday at a Ward I attended, the priests broke the bread in too big of chunks and it ran out before all who desired to partake could be served. So the bishop raided some child's cheerio stash and cheerios were blessed and passed.

Caffiend:

Here It Is! "Doctrine and Covenants, Section 27".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/27?lang=eng

The italics at the top of the page give the context and history, including date, that explains what the scriptures lower on the page are about. This might help you understand more of the wacky Mormon behavior. Boy, we were weird.

If anything, since the revelation specifies "with reverence," it could allow for saltine crackers. So it states water is used instead of wine, but doesn't explain why. Okay, the drink of the enemies is forbidden, but what about your own?

Although it is an interesting section for other reasons. It shows how JS confused "Elijah" with "Elias," who are the same person, just differently named (Hebrew/Greek) in the NT. But JS didn't know that, did he?

Verse 11 is interesting: "And also with Michael, or aAdam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;"

So...Michael = Adam = the father of all = "the ancient of days," an OT moniker for God (Yahweh). Is this where BY got his Adam-God doctrine?

I was also amused by JS's mishmash paraphrase of Paul's "armor of God" text from Ephesians 6. If you're going to plagiarize, do it right!

Why does it have to be white bread? And why water, instead of wine or grape juice? I'm seriously curious, as this is a major departure from usual Christian practice. Can anybody establish date(s) as to when these practices were established? Were they instituted because of Revelation? Under which presidency?

Serious question, and links to responsible sources would also be appreciated.

As far as using only white bread, it doesn't seem to be doctrinal (at least I can't find anything that so states), but like so many things in mormonism, it is difficult to tell the difference between doctrine, tradition, and just some leader's personal preference.
See this discussion from 2013

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1039380

Then there is this from LDS Freedom Forum (which sounds more like a personal belief by leadership)

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=22765
"I have been struggling with this topic since Sunday. A priesthood leader taught in his Sunday talk that the white bread used in the Sacrament represents purity of the Savior. Our Stake President is very stern about only allowing white bread to be used as Sacrament bread."

As to the question about water instead of wine, see this from mopologists

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormon_ordinances/Sacrament/Method_of_administration

"Various American temperance movements since the mid-18th century had called for a ban on the sale and use of alcohol. The third wave of this movement began in 1893 and culminated with national prohibition in 1919.[3] Among the supporters of complete abstinence were LDS Church Presidents Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant. Beginning in 1902 President Smith began institutional reforms to require greater adherence to the Word of Wisdom. "In keeping with the change in emphasis, the First Presidency and Twelve substituted water for wine in the sacrament in their temple meetings, apparently beginning July 5, 1906."[4] Local Latter-day Saint congregations followed suit soon after, a practice that remains to this day."

If other people have sources or insights, please feel free to contribute.

"And the Lord did say, 'Thou shalt use Wonder bread for thine sacrament. Wonder bread is what shalt thou use and no other. Wheat bread shalt thou not use, unless they are out of Wonder bread. Pumpernickel is right out.'" -Mormon doctrine (apparently).

Never served in France, though.

It's a wonder it is bread. Finding good bread is one of life's challenges.

Technically, D&C states it matters not what gou use S long as you do so in reverence and with an eye single to the glory of god.

I've used anything we could scrounge from C-Rations (yes I'm that old) or later MREs.

So ...

rye
pumpernickel
Wheat
Cinnamon Bread
Raisin Bread
Crackers
Biscuits
Cookies

To Drink

Coconut Milk
Lemonade
Koolade

Heartless Wrote:
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>
> I've used anything we could scrounge from
> C-Rations (yes I'm that old) or later MREs.

You and me both. MRE's were just coming in during my hitch. We called them "L-rations," for "Long-Range patrol" rations, because they were (supposedly) saved for Recon or long, extended operations. I was good at procuring them for my squad.

A little detail I never mentioned on this board was how LDS helped me break free from Christian Science. I was serving as radioman, and thus hung around the company CP frequently, and made the acquaintance of an LDS lieutenant. (Navy, but serving with us Gyrenes.) We got to talking about religion, and he explained how his church started in the 19th century, had a prophet (revelator) who gave to Mankind God's final & true revelation, and how it was "the one true church" and they had scriptures which was given only to them and "completed" Christ's work,...etc.

All of those (and more) things were what I was taught about Christian Science! I learned for the first time that CS was not the special & unique religion I thought it to be.
>
> Koolade

Glad you stopped drinking the Kool-Ade! (BTW, the Jim Jones suicide beverage was actually "Flavor-Ade."

On F&T Sundays i wasn't preparing the sacrament (and I ALWAYS washed my hands).
.thanks mom for that...a few of us would skip SS and head to the nearby confectionery for sustainsnce.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2022 02:41PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

I was on a mission in Italy (1969-1971), and then lived and worked there between 1997 and 2001, while I was still active. When missionaries were responsible for the sacrament, they always bought so-called "American bread," these enormous loaves of square slices--always dry, always tasteless. It's what Italians used to make their triangular sandwiches known as "tramezzini." When the Italians were responsible for laying out the sacrament table, they bought nice Italian bread rolls. And yet, too many times to count, the priests would take off that cloth, only to reveal that NO ONE had brought bread for the sacrament table. So they would go on to the talks and rest hymn, while embarrassed priesthood holders went out to the nearest pub and bought some kind of bread. At least once, they bought some sweet rolls with a nice egg-wash glaze. That was nice to have for sacrament.

During my mission, one elder from Burley, ID, insisted that the church required the American-style bread, and required that the priests or teachers, or whoever, slice off the crust and only use the white spongy part of the bread. My TBM sister believes that, too, because one of her past bishops said it HAD TO BE, because... White.

Mormonism uses the cheapest bread available... since Jesus isn't paying for it!

Christ was a Jew. Jews didn't eat unleavened bread. The sacrament should be matzo crackers or pita bread. The Mormons are serving unkosher bread that's unclean.

Rubicon Wrote:
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> ... The Mormons are serving unkosher bread that's unclean.>

It goes with the rest of Mormonism [which is unkosher & unclean]