Hey all

Not sure anyone remembers but I was having major issues (mental health) concerning leaving the LDS. I am much better but, lately an old issue has resurfaced, one I thought I'd beaten.

Concering sins before baptism.

When you get baptised into the LDS and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, does anyone know if all sins before that event, are forgiven? I don't mean murder, or rape, or anything of that magnitude. Assuming you are contrite, and pray for forgiveness, do you still have to apologise to the person you wronged, or is that sin removed after the baptism?

Thanks all.

Yes. All minor sins are forgiven at baptism.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> Yes. All minor sins are forgiven at baptism.

Thank you for clarifying.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> Yes. All minor sins are forgiven at baptism.

Do you know if minor sins inlcude stealing one time from a friend about 35 to 40 years ago? I'm not sure how much I took but it wasn't a lot (perhaps £20 to £30). I know that isn't the point, and I am embarrassed to mention it, but I haven't done anything like that since and I am sorry I did it. To be honest, I think I did it, but I'm not 100% certain.

I haven't been a memember of the LDS for about 15 to 20 years and about 9 months ago I thought I was over it completely, but this has resurfaced.

I would gladly apologise to my friend and give back what I think I took, but I'm afraid they will blacken my name in the community. Deservedly so, but I'm still afraid to tell them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2022 04:13AM by seajay.

The rule is that whatever happened before baptism, save some egregious sins, are expunged at baptism. Subsequent minor sins are subject to repentance and, where appropriate, restitution. Mid-level sins like petting oneself or others additionally require confession to an ecclesiastical voyeur.

It follows that stealing 30 quid from someone would ideally be resolved by returning the money and repenting. At a more distant remove, meaning years or decades, no one would expect you to search out someone to return such a piddling sum. So you should be good to go as far as the Celestial Kingdom is concerned!

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> The rule is that whatever happened before baptism,
> save some egregious sins, are expunged at baptism.
> Subsequent minor sins are subject to repentance
> and, where appropriate, restitution. Mid-level
> sins like petting oneself or others additionally
> require confession to an ecclesiastical voyeur.
>
> It follows that stealing 30 quid from someone
> would ideally be resolved by returning the money
> and repenting. At a more distant remove, meaning
> years or decades, no one would expect you to
> search out someone to return such a piddling sum.
> So you should be good to go as far as the
> Celestial Kingdom is concerned!

Thank you for this.

My worry is this, other than the unforgivable sin, all sins (or at least, sins worse than stealing £30) would be forgiven. Depending on how bad the sin, you wouldn't get the Celestial Kingdom, but they would be forgiven.

But my sin, the theft, even though not that high on a list of sins, would never be forgiven, because I did not apologise to the person or make restitution.

Therefore, someone who murdered lots of people, would be punished, and then when the punishment is over, they would go to the, let's say,Telestial Kingdom, whereas I who stole £30 over 30 years ago, even though a lesser sin, because I didn't own up and attempt to give the money back (which I just tried to do, only my friend wasn't in when I called - so I'll try again later), would go to Outer Darkness? Is this how it works?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2022 04:41AM by seajay.

No.

Outer darkness is reserved only for those who commit the sin against the Holy Ghost- i.e they received the sure knowledge from the Holy Ghost of the truthfulness of the gospel and then denied it.

Any other sin will not get you sent to outer darkness wether you repented or not.

The most important thing to remember, however, is that all of Mormonism is made up. All of it. The celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, the telestial kingdom, outer darkness, all of it - made up.

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No.
>
> Outer darkness is reserved only for those who
> commit the sin against the Holy Ghost- i.e they
> received the sure knowledge from the Holy Ghost of
> the truthfulness of the gospel and then denied
> it.
>
> Any other sin will not get you sent to outer
> darkness wether you repented or not.
>
> The most important thing to remember, however, is
> that all of Mormonism is made up. All of it. The
> celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, the
> telestial kingdom, outer darkness, all of it -
> made up.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I would be lost without all the people who have helped me here. You have all helped me so much in the past and are doing so again.

I am trying to beat this, but, some days are worse than others and this is the worst I've been in about 9 months. Still not as bad as I have been, and things are definitely getting better, but, some days it's tough.

Thank you all very much. I really do appreciate the time and effort everyone one of you takes to answer my posts.

>...stealing one time from a friend about 35 to 40 years ago? I'm not sure how much I took but it wasn't a lot (perhaps £20 to £30

What about maybe finding a way to anonymously send that person £30 with or without an anonymous note? That way you can make right with the person and not open up the unnecessary risk of talk in the community?

I have to commend your conscience level. I'd just let it go. Everyone has done some dumb stuff.

dagny Wrote:
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> >...stealing one time from a friend about 35 to 40
> years ago? I'm not sure how much I took but it
> wasn't a lot (perhaps £20 to £30
>
> What about maybe finding a way to anonymously send
> that person £30 with or without an anonymous
> note? That way you can make right with the person
> and not open up the unnecessary risk of talk in
> the community?
>
> I have to commend your conscience level. I'd just
> let it go. Everyone has done some dumb stuff.

I was thinking about, just dropping some money in an envelope and through his door. I'll do that, at least.

I agree with Dagny, as usual. That sounds like a great idea and you sound like an honorable man.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Dagny, as usual. That sounds like a
> great idea and you sound like an honorable man.

Thank you, nice of you to say so.

If I were you I'd send it through the mail anonymously, that way you won't be seen or captured on camera sticking it through the door.

You're asking what's the proper way to saddle the unicorn the church gives you.

There is no unicorn. Therefor there are no rules on how to properly saddle it.

Whether you need to apologize to a person is between you and the other person. God is not really part of the equation, and an LDS baptismal certificate is most definitely not part of the equation.

Yes, it would be simpler to have the decision made for you.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're asking what's the proper way to saddle the
> unicorn the church gives you.
>
> There is no unicorn. Therefor there are no rules
> on how to properly saddle it.
>
> Whether you need to apologize to a person is
> between you and the other person. God is not
> really part of the equation, and an LDS baptismal
> certificate is most definitely not part of the
> equation.
>
> Yes, it would be simpler to have the decision made
> for you.

Understood. Thank you for the feedback.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2022 04:32PM by seajay.

Back when my kids were in high school and taking seminary, I saw a show about a guy who killed children, can't remember if he sexually abused them. He killed a neighbor's child and then he ground up his body and fed his neighbor a spaghetti dinner made with her own son's dead body.

My daughter comes home one day and tells me she isn't going to make it. There just isn't any way. And I told her there are some really horrible people out there and most people I believe are good, that she had no worries. I at the time was pretty much over my beliefs.

You sound like a really good person. I'll say it. You are overthinking these things. The reason I can say it is because I do the same thing.

When you asked about sins before baptism, when I was about 4 years old, the neighbor lady took her daughter, my sister, and I to a store called something out Sprouts Reitz. I know I am wrong on that name. I'm 64, so LONG TIME AGO. My mother had given her a little bit of money to buy us penny candy. This lady handed me a sucker and said we'd pay as we left. We never paid for the sucker and I was a very shy child and didn't dare say anything. ON the way home, I gave the sucker to my sister. I can still see her walking along the side lawn of our home eating that sucker. It still pops up now and then. I know how unrealistic it is to worry about this, but for years and years I thought I'd go buy something in the store and then tell them to keep the pennies. That was before they kept pennies at the counter that people left behind.

SO I OVER THINK THINGS, which didn't work well when I went through dealing with leaders over gay issues. I used to beat myself up over every little thing as I had to be perfect in order to save my husband and he even told me that if I did things like watch Married With Children on Sundays (this is when it first came out), that I was lowering his ability to resist temptation, although I didn't know he was already cheating. I was actually told by a church leader it was my fault he cheated as I must not be giving him enough sex. And so I beat myself up over that for a long time, but knowing logically that it didn't make sense. The gay guys I asked who used to be on this board laughed when I told them what the bishop said. Told me how ridiculous that was.

I still have a hard time when I hear that people say it is my fault he chose to be gay or that I gave up on him. Even though I know it isn't my fault and he is okay being gay--just FINE and as my dad told me HE WAS BORN THAT WAY.

I told my daughter all those years ago about one line in The Joy Luck Club. I love that movie. The mother said to her daughter, "I see you. I SEE YOU. You were born this way." Everyone makes mistakes. Forgive yourself. Let it go. I would bet most people on this board would say you sound like a really good person. Be good to yourself.

cl2notloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back when my kids were in high school and taking
> seminary, I saw a show about a guy who killed
> children, can't remember if he sexually abused
> them. He killed a neighbor's child and then he
> ground up his body and fed his neighbor a
> spaghetti dinner made with her own son's dead
> body.
>
> My daughter comes home one day and tells me she
> isn't going to make it. There just isn't any way.
> And I told her there are some really horrible
> people out there and most people I believe are
> good, that she had no worries. I at the time was
> pretty much over my beliefs.
>
> You sound like a really good person. I'll say it.
> You are overthinking these things. The reason I
> can say it is because I do the same thing.
>
> When you asked about sins before baptism, when I
> was about 4 years old, the neighbor lady took her
> daughter, my sister, and I to a store called
> something out Sprouts Reitz. I know I am wrong on
> that name. I'm 64, so LONG TIME AGO. My mother
> had given her a little bit of money to buy us
> penny candy. This lady handed me a sucker and
> said we'd pay as we left. We never paid for the
> sucker and I was a very shy child and didn't dare
> say anything. ON the way home, I gave the sucker
> to my sister. I can still see her walking along
> the side lawn of our home eating that sucker. It
> still pops up now and then. I know how
> unrealistic it is to worry about this, but for
> years and years I thought I'd go buy something in
> the store and then tell them to keep the pennies.
> That was before they kept pennies at the counter
> that people left behind.
>
> SO I OVER THINK THINGS, which didn't work well
> when I went through dealing with leaders over gay
> issues. I used to beat myself up over every
> little thing as I had to be perfect in order to
> save my husband and he even told me that if I did
> things like watch Married With Children on Sundays
> (this is when it first came out), that I was
> lowering his ability to resist temptation,
> although I didn't know he was already cheating. I
> was actually told by a church leader it was my
> fault he cheated as I must not be giving him
> enough sex. And so I beat myself up over that for
> a long time, but knowing logically that it didn't
> make sense. The gay guys I asked who used to be
> on this board laughed when I told them what the
> bishop said. Told me how ridiculous that was.
>
> I still have a hard time when I hear that people
> say it is my fault he chose to be gay or that I
> gave up on him. Even though I know it isn't my
> fault and he is okay being gay--just FINE and as
> my dad told me HE WAS BORN THAT WAY.
>
> I told my daughter all those years ago about one
> line in The Joy Luck Club. I love that movie.
> The mother said to her daughter, "I see you. I
> SEE YOU. You were born this way." Everyone makes
> mistakes. Forgive yourself. Let it go. I would
> bet most people on this board would say you sound
> like a really good person. Be good to yourself.

Thank you for the kind words. I think you are a good person too and your sharing of your experiences leads me to think that. I'm very sorry for what you went through.

And you're absolutely right - I really do overthink things.

C2, it was Sprouse-Reitz. I have only the most vague recollection of them in the area where I grew up. In an older shopping district their name is still visible in terrazzo at the building entrance.

I'm an over thinker as well, but that has improved a lot with age and experience. For the first 30 years of my life forgiving myself was impossible.

I don't remember my pre-dunking sins but I made up for them after I got ordained to the p hood and took creative sinning more seriously.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2022 11:09PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

When I was 7, I told Santa Claus that I had been good that year. I'm in trouble now.

moehoward Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I was 7, I told Santa Claus that I had been
> good that year. I'm in trouble now.

Which raises a good point, namely, what if I remember ten transgressions, only to remember ten more, then ten more, etc. Surely there has to be a point where it all stops.

Stop thinking about your past transgressions. Problem solved.

I felt so scared drinking my first cup of coffee at age 33. Your friend lives without the $30 so he/she survived even without the $30. If someone has taken $30 from me 10 years ago I so don't want to know. One time I was maybe 22 years old a woman came up to me and apologized for having been rude to me while we went to highschool together. I had to laugh because I sure was rude back to her too. So we both hugged it out. I said to her I accept her apology if she accepts mine because I wasn't an angel either. Your sins are forgiven baptism has made you all clean. Even if your sins are red as velvet or something like that. Sorry, I was kind of a snarky teenager and if I had to repent for all my sins and snarky comments.

Seajay,

Go online and look up this word: Scrupulosity.

Read up on the definition and its symptoms. It could be possible that you would feel much improved if you were to make an appointment to see your doctor and get a referral from the doctor for a therapist to help you overcome your guilt and worry. There are several treatments, including medications. You sound as if you would truly like to feel relief from this feeling that has been weighing you down. While I could tell you every day for months to forget about those thoughts, a therapist has better tools and skills for helping people like you. Look into this.

Do you have sudden, intrusive thoughts over it and other shame-imposing situations? I’ve seen some books online about overcoming intrusive thoughts. I’ll try to find the names of those books and edit them in here.

Good luck, Seajay. I hope you get relief from this.


A great coworker of mine who dealt with guilt-ridden teenagers (over petty thefts—-offenses similar to yours) —-anyway, he used to remind them “You did not kill the Lindbergh baby.”

Neither did you, Seajay.

Kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you have sudden, intrusive thoughts over it and
> other shame-imposing situations? I’ve seen some
> books online about overcoming intrusive thoughts.
> I’ll try to find the names of those books and
> edit them in here.
>
> Good luck, Seajay. I hope you get relief from
> this.
>
>
> A great coworker of mine who dealt with
> guilt-ridden teenagers (over petty
> thefts—-offenses similar to yours) —-anyway,
> he used to remind them “You did not kill the
> Lindbergh baby.”
>
> Neither did you, Seajay.

I think it's more a case of a fear of punishment than guilt/shame (though that plays a part). It terrifies me if I'm honest. Perhaps something to do with my upbringing. Either way I am in therapy trying to get over it, and people here are also a great help to me, and I'm greatful for that.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that yes, I do get intrusive thoughts. I've had them for years and they can be very distressing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2022 04:27AM by seajay.

What if your concern over whether you are *forgiven* is misplaced?
What if the problem is with the very notion of sin? What if sin is not a real thing?
https://sunstone.org/sin-does-not-exist/
Even if God exists, sin is not a thing.
God may exist, I don't know. Morality certainly exists. BUT YOU CANNOT DERIVE MORALITYFROM GOD'S WILL.