As long as ‘assured annihilation’ remains the guiding principle of our foreign relations anything goes. We’ve made it clear that even if a nuclear power commits genocide, the rest of us will not stop them, out of fear of the alternative.
Not getting into WW3 is my #1 issue, but at what point do we draw the line? 1 million innocent people dead?
10 million?
100?

Maybe it's time to bring back Disco.

Huh?
Go back to the 70’s?
I don’t get it if that’s a joke.

It does seem like the 1970s are back.

Have we learned anything when a third of Americans polled would risk world nuclear war to help Ukraine? Did we learn anything from the Trail of Tears? From slavery? Yes. We learned how to do those things legally. So, no real progress. Just fear of the bomb, which apparently isn't enough.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As long as ‘assured annihilation’ remains the
> guiding principle of our foreign relations
> anything goes. We’ve made it clear that even if
> a nuclear power commits genocide, the rest of us
> will not stop them, out of fear of the
> alternative.
> Not getting into WW3 is my #1 issue, but at what
> point do we draw the line? 1 million innocent
> people dead?
> 10 million?
> 100?

Not meaningless at all. "We" [the world], unfortunately for most all of us, learned important lessons from the Holocaust deaths/murders of eleven million people/non-combatants in WWII.

Part of the angst going on now is because so many of the deaths in Ukraine are happening to people of Jewish ancestry, so from the outside it sure does feel like the Holocaust, in a somewhat different appearance, is happening all over again.

Everyone on the "good" side is aware of the current, ongoing, deaths of non-combatants, and of the various potential outcomes which could logically ensue from this war.

I don't know what the immediate, or the eventual, realities will be, but I do think that the lessons of the WWII Holocaust are being seriously kept in mind by those on the "good" side as they make their daily decisions about how to thwart those who are absolutely up to no good.

Doesn't who is "good" and who is "bad" depend on who wins?

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't who is "good" and who is "bad" depend on
> who wins?

No.

That was a joke. The victors write the history.

What does it mean to have a home? I mean, where really is home when you are a Jew? Should you have one? In the context of me personally or anyone with the soul of a Jew. The body comes and goes but here we are.

There are a lot of Jews in both Russia and Ukraine. This conflict will produce yet more diaspora. The chosen ones are always scattered because this is not their home.

I feel blessed to come to Earth, to serve its people, to experience its suffering. I will do it again, I will not stop. I will not stay at my home, in paradise.

As frustrating as this is to watch, as difficult as it becomes at times to not throw the remote into the television and scream, just remember that Ukraine has emerged as the most cherished underdog imaginable, its leader, a Jew and grandson of Holocaust survivors becoming a source of strength to the world and an inspiration to people of Russia, an unlikely leader emerging from a seemingly impossible nightmare.

Were NATO or the United States on its own to get directly into the killing of Russians inside Ukraine, the stakes are not just nuclear, the tables would turn on a dime, Russian people would no longer be protesting Putin, they would be witnessing the west killing Russians, the entire situation would be different in the blink of an eye.

When a baby chick is hatching from its egg, as difficult as it is for a child to watch it struggle, if that chick is helped by removing the egg shell for it, the chick can bleed to death because of the well intentioned assistance.

Please don't lose faith in the "Never Again", we are witnessing something for the first time since then, we are watching the Russian military face demise at the hands of former Soviet people who are being cheered if even silently by Russians. This is something new, something with earth shattering potential to be good.

This is a beautiful post.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a beautiful post.

I agree.

Because I had just read an article from Frontline by Samantha Powers regarding the genocides since the holocaust and America's responses, I have mixed feelings regarding your post, an excerpt:

"Irrespective of the political affiliation of the President at the time, the major genocides of the post-war era -- Cambodia (Carter), northern Iraq (Reagan, Bush), Bosnia (Bush, Clinton) and Rwanda (Clinton) -- have yielded virtually no American action and few stern words. American leaders have not merely refrained from sending GIs to combat genocide; when it came to atrocities in Cambodia, Iraq and Rwanda, the United States also refrained from condemning the crimes or imposing economic sanctions; and, again in Rwanda, the United States refused to authorize the deployment of a multinational U.N. force, and also squabbled over who would foot the bill for American transport vehicles."


Only because this time it is Russia is America doing even a little?


And, regarding the holocaust--my people, the gays, were taken to prison directly from the concentration camps when the others were finally freed. This with the participation of American forces.*

We never get it right and we never will. Humans are basically selfish and those who have superseded that have yet to gain power.




*There is a foreign film, "Great Freedom", on this subject currently nominated for an Oscar---which few will see or care.

Samantha's article was from 2001. Listen to her now on Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp4d3_abdiE

2001 was before cancel culture. Anyone who wants to keep their job and not be ostracized toes the party line. It's just like the old USSR.

As the Arab proverb says, be careful who you hate for you will become them.

How about you two just watch that video of her. See what she says about fake news starting at 1:10. You and I are just talking past each other. This isn't even communication between us, it is just a one-sided echo chamber from you. Good bye.

“NEVER AGAIN!*”
*unless you have oil, then genocide again and again and again.

Thank you for saying that part out loud. But none of that matters. This is an existential war between China and the US. Notice how they have "defaced" the West by relegating its doctrine to the realm of myth. That is their intent, which they will carry out. China wins wars. They handicap you by publishing a book about how war is what they do and how they do it, and they still win. When China supplies arms to Russia against Ukraine, you will know the end has arrived.

This leaves an embarrassing conundrum. What if the crazy prophet guy getting all the tail was right? Sure, what if? How about those odds?

But in the interest of covering the bases, I bless the civilization that our children will build from the ashes of ours.

I think it's important to clarify that defacing bit, as it signals their intent to obliterate Western civilization. The censorship of topics like the 1989 student uprising is too in-your-face. They rewrite history as they see fit because in their minds the war is over. The complete annihilation of the West is just a formality.

This probably shows the downside of creating a world whose survival depends on being afraid to die. Which perversely brings us back on topic, as Mormons have actually fetishized death.

Just to set the record straight, I don't take kindly to everything I know being annihilated. But after Mormonism, it's kinda old hat.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2022 07:51PM by bradley.

Thanks for the link. Had missed that and always like her insight. Her take on the situation gave me a flicker of hope specifically in light of what she said in 2001. Both help paint a broader picture.

I still think much of the world is coming together and actually doing a something this time is, as I said, because it's Russia. Russia has always been the enemy that you need keep closer than your friends--as the old saying goes.

I take from your thread that you see this may be the last gasp of a dying beast. I hope that is true.

I always though "never again" was a purely Jewish response to the Holocaust that never again would they "passively" allow it to happen. It was an attitude summed up by our guide after a visit to Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. It was a some years ago when the possibility of Iran getting nuclear weapons was a hot topic. As we got on the bus he said: "Because of what you have seen here Iran will never get an atomic bomb."

I don't know what to say about it all and the fact that so many other genocides have happened. I think it was Rwanda that I watched quite a bit about back when it happened. We don't hear about most of them. It is difficult to watch, all of this. A family with a set of twins was killed in a hostel last night I believe. It always catches my notice when there are twins. They all bother me.

And the Russian soldiers that were sent in there to fight when they were never told and now they are being killed, too. They said the soldiers are leaving their tanks when they are parked still as they know the weapons will be coming in to blow up the tanks.

What a tragedy! What a waste! And for what?

And for what? For a little man's ego. And I am not talking about physical stature.

Why do the Gerontocracy do what they do? Little men.

I guess we should say from now on,”Never Again, unless you are not in the NATO Alliance, then you are on your own, because we don’t want to die for you.”

I am tired of clever, cute, phrases/mottos/memes. They look nice on an iPhone or a tee shirt for a while, and then they--as all things over-used do-- lose their power.

For limited time only, any cause now needs an app or it's nothing. Soon though, the next gimmick will propel well intentioned catch phrases so that they can be shared and make everyone feel like they are on the right team as they do nothing.

“NEVER Again!*”
*For a limited time only.
*Unless we didn’t pick you to be on our team, then you are S.O.L. If your neighbor wants to commit genocide, again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2022 01:17PM by schrodingerscat.

Oh come on, didn't you love Matthew Modine's Pvt Joker in "Full Metal Jacket"? Times like these call for gallows humor.

"A day without blood* is like a day without sunshine". Gotta love the late Kubrick.

* That’s sarcasm, for the uninitiated. It's a classic style of humor used to lampoon absurd situations and an effective art form in the right hands.

There has never been a good war or a bad peace. Putin is a thug. For all thugs, the ends justify the means. That is the critical unpredictable variable here. If cornered I doubt Putin will hesitate to burn the world down for his ego. Since the war is going so badly for Russia, either Russia will negotiate and save face, or...

The universe sits quietly and dispassionately observing, as it burps another star afire, and a black hole consumes another solar system.


HH =)

I’m a pacifist, except when it comes to preventing another holocaust. Putin’s war on Ukraine is clearly another genocide, not yet on the same scale as the Holocaust, but it has the potential for killing/displacing as many innocent people, while the world stands back and watches.
Putin is Hitler with nukes.
But instead of ending up dead from a self inflicted bullet through his brain, he will end up on the International Space Station with a bunch of Russian supermodels, ballerinas and gymnasts, and as much vodka and cocaine as one human can handle.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...while the world stands back and watches.

I know it's a terrible situation but I'm not anxious, so far, for them to rush in and turn it into WWIII overnight, without trying lesser measures first. Of course, it's like forever for those most grievously affected.

The nukes undoubtedly make it the scariest prospect yet in history.


> ... he will end up
> on the International Space Station with a bunch of
> Russian supermodels, ballerinas and gymnasts, and
> as much vodka and cocaine as one human can handle.

Great idea for him to blast himself off this planet. Permanently. Not sure how many models, ballerinas and gymnasts will choose to keep him company.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...while the world stands back and watches.
>
> The nukes undoubtedly make it the scariest
> prospect yet in history.

Putin is playing 4D chess while the West is playing tiddlywinks.
It’s the ultimate checkmate.
Take a rocket ship to the ISS and hit the big red button once you clear Earth’s atmosphere. Pretty sure Hitler would have taken that way out had it been an option.

> > ... he will end up
> > on the International Space Station with a bunch
> of
> > Russian supermodels, ballerinas and gymnasts,
> and
> > as much vodka and cocaine as one human can
> handle.
>
> Great idea for him to blast himself off this
> planet. Permanently. Not sure how many models,
> ballerinas and gymnasts will choose to keep him
> company.

Given the choice between that and annihilation, pretty sure he’d find plenty of volunteers.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightingale Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > schrodingerscat Wrote:
> >
> ---------------
> Take a rocket ship to the ISS and hit the big red
> button once you clear Earth’s atmosphere. Pretty
> sure Hitler would have taken that way out had it
> been an option.

> Given the choice between that and annihilation,

> pretty sure he’d find plenty of volunteers.




With what we’ve seen of the Putin personality, I wouldn’t doubt this. As bad as he is, we can rest assured he has plenty of sycophants to help him carry such a thing out.

Putin has to be eliminated as fast as the world can do it. Or things will only get worse. It’s time for the rest of the world to stand on its hind legs. But, I’m not hopeful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2022 06:35PM by Kathleen.

"Putin is playing 4D chess while the West is playing tiddlywinks"

I miss the old Boris and Natasha cartoons, don't you?

Putin is playing a role scripted for him. Now he is Boris Badenov. He could disappear and what would happen? Nothing, because he is a mascot just like our Russell M Nelson. Nelson gets to honk the horn of the clown car, but little else.

An emotional Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy angrily told Germany’s Parliament on Thursday that the post-Holocaust “never again” pledge means nothing in light of the West’s inaction on the Russian invasion of his country.
“‘Never again’ has been the slogan,” Zelenskyy, who is Jewish, said in his scathing remarks via video link from Kyiv. “But now it looks like it doesn’t mean anything. A people is being destroyed in Europe,” and the West stands idle.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/zelenskyy-holocaust-never-again-russia-germany-ukraine_n_623406e3e4b0f1e82c47bb32

While understandable, the sort of impulsive emotionalism evident in this thread is dangerous. It's the sort of thing that leads to overreaction and tragedy.

Words have meanings. What is happening in Ukraine is neither genocide nor Holocaust. This is in no way comparable to what the Jews and other peoples suffered at the hands of Hitler.

It is important to maintain some objectivity when watching this sort of disaster unfold lest emotionalism compound the tragedy. Unless one thinks the apocalypse would be a good thing, the world--and particularly its leaders--need to think rationally and on that basis to calibrate responses to present challenges and prospective risks.

Things could get far, far worse.

I agree that these decisions cannot be made with emotion. Unfortunately for those caught in the crossfire, literally, it takes time.

I understand the imperative not to precipitate a worse catastrophe by jumping in without considering all angles, widening the conflict and putting even more people at risk.

Of course, it's tragic and heartbreaking to see video of people suffering and dying and grieving and fleeing. My heart says do anything it takes, and do it NOW, to make it all stop. My head says it's more like a chess match where every move must be carefully considered unless you don't mind bowing to defeat in three moves. (Not that I'm calling it a game, I would hope it goes without saying).

It's the nukes. They make one stop and think. You'd hope. And then do an end run around the evil one. Hopefully, somebody can figure out that play tout de suite (or in English: PDQ).

LW, What actions or inactions at this point will keep things from getting worse?

I frankly think Biden is close to having this correct. It's nice to have adults back in charge after the former guy tried to destroy NATO. Now we see clearly that alliances matter and friends are valuable.

Scylla and Charybdis: on the one hand is the danger of World War Three if the West overreacts, on the other the risk that Putin wins. But between the two extremes is another risk, that of providing enough weaponry to Ukraine to sustain the war but not enough to win it. In effect, the West would be fighting the Russians to the last Ukrainian.

The question then becomes how can NATO increase the pressure on Russia sufficiently to bring the war to an end on reasonable terms. If US policy could be improved, it might be by increasing more rapidly the supply of tank- and aircraft-destroying munitions as well as food and humanitarian resources. Russia is presently depleting not just their forces in Ukraine but their entire military. I'd intensify that effect in order to save as many Ukrainian lives as possible and conclude the crisis and the concomitant risks of expansion and escalation as quickly as possible.

The other thing is to recognize that like most wars, this won't end in a complete victory for either side. Putin may survive, and even if he doesn't the West must recognize Russia's legitimate security interests. Zelensky is playing a double game, as he should. Even as he calls this genocide and demands more help from the West, he has abandoned his demand for admission to NATO and says that he's willing to neutralize Ukraine. That is a profound change and wise. Ukraine may also need to cede the Crimea, a critically important peninsula that has only been Ukrainian since 1964. My guess is what this ultimately comes down to are the size of the military Ukraine is allowed to maintain and the status of the southeastern provinces that Russia conquered in 2014.

This is a battle that is more clearly between good and evil than most and we would all like to see the Ukrainians completely victorious, free to join NATO and the EU. But the best, most sustainable, outcome will be more moderate--and less emotionally satisfying.

TY.

I agree with you, and I think the concessions you named would all be reasonable under the circumstances.

I had always thought the phrase ‘Never Again’ was set aside to refer only to the Holocaust. Even if so, there are several interpretations of the intention behind the phrase. Now it is said to be ‘universalized’ to refer to all genocide, and I see that the Holocaust Museum uses it in this way too.

From the Holocaust Museum web site: “The Holocaust was the systematic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its allies and collaborators. The US Holocaust Memorial Museum teaches millions of people each year about the dangers of unchecked hatred and the need to prevent genocide.”


Representatives of the Holocaust Museum state that it fundraises “to keep Holocaust memory alive as a relevant force for change—inspiring people worldwide to confront hate, prevent genocide and promote human dignity.”


Excerpts from Wiki re the origin and meanings:

“The phrase may originate from a 1927 poem by Yitzhak Lamdan which stated "Never again shall Masada fall!" In the context of genocide, the slogan was used by liberated prisoners at Buchenwald concentration camp to express anti-fascist sentiment. The exact meaning of the phrase is debated, including whether it should be used as a particularistic command to avert a second Holocaust of Jews or whether it is a universalist injunction to prevent all forms of genocide. It was adopted as a slogan by Meir Kahane's Jewish Defense League.”

“The first use of the phrase "never again" in the context of the Holocaust was in April 1945 when newly liberated survivors at Buchenwald concentration camp displayed it in various languages on handmade signs.”

“According to Aaron Dorfman, "Since the Holocaust, the Jewish community's attitude toward preventing genocide has been summed up in the moral philosophy of 'Never Again.'" What this meant was that the Jews would not allow themselves to be victimized."

"The phrase has been used in many official commemorations and appears on many Holocaust memorials and museums, including memorials at Treblinka extermination camp and Dachau concentration camp, as well as in commemoration of the Rwanda genocide.”

“It is in wide use by Holocaust survivors, politicians, writers, and other commentators, who invoke it for a variety of purposes. In 2012, Elie Wiesel wrote: "'Never again' becomes more than a slogan: It's a prayer, a promise, a vow ... never again the glorification of base, ugly, dark violence." The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum made the phrase, in its universal sense, the theme of its 2013 Days of Remembrance, urging people to look out for the "warning signs" of genocide.”

“Elie Wiesel wrote that if "never again" were upheld "there would be no Cambodia, and no Rwanda and no Darfur and no Bosnia."

-----

John Lennon with his Give Peace a Chance - was he ahead of his time or is no time the right time for humans to ever "get it together" as Lennon said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acb15JsCGSk


Give Peace a Chance in Ukraine (Dec, 2014):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etYeu7gDlm8


Such a total tearjerker. This video. And the whole big fat mess of it all.


(Edits re spacing and quotation marks, sorry)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2022 09:01PM by Nightingale.

How does one respond to and deal with unimaginable horror? Perhaps it is a koan. Kind of like it is only after you have lost everything that you can do anything. What happens when only love will get you through? What then?

Those who survived the camps, which were a Sunday picnic compared to what we in the US and Europe will have to endure, had a will to survive. The will to survive is the defining characteristic of the survivors of horrific POW conditions.

My response is gratitude for one more day. Another day of existence in an ephemeral world that can wink out just like that. Gratitude for every little aspect of this civilization we have built, like Tom Hanks in "Castaway".

As Ramm Das said, "Be here now."

Take no thought of the morrow may be the best advice for times like these.

Wimmen folk be like "No thanks, I'm a gonna worry". As the band leader in "Titanic" said, gentlemen it's been a pleasure.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those who survived the camps, which were a Sunday
> picnic compared to what we in the US and Europe
> will have to endure...

Absolutely not true.

You need to do a great deal more reading, and viewing relevant documentary videos, than you have obviously done up to this point in time.

From your words, you literally do not know what you are talking about.

It would be nice if we could tell the difference between bradley's attempts at humor and his attempts at sincerity.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those who survived the camps, which were a Sunday
> picnic...

Not even in jest, if that's what this is meant to be. Eleven MILLION victims +++++. No picnic.

From the Holocaust Museum:

"The Holocaust was Nazi Germany’s deliberate, organized, state-sponsored persecution and machinelike murder of approximately six million European Jews and at least five million prisoners of war, Romany, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, and other victims."

The Holocaust Museum - Learn about the Holocaust:

https://www.ushmm.org/learn

You can look at just one photograph and there could be no minimizing or "joking" about a single minute of the horror.

There's a reason that the words 'Never Again' and 'Holocaust' have specific meanings, connotations, memories, observances and commemorations attached to them as well as museums to educate the public and memorialize the events for history.

For even just one thing - honouring the memories of all those who suffered loss, grief and even life itself, due to complete and utter collective insanity.

I wish humankind were more into making love not war but that seems like a big ask, at least going by our history to date.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2022 10:41PM by Nightingale.

Thank you, Nightingale.

+1

The absolute least I can possibly do, Tevai.

Thank you.

While this has been implied in earlier posts, let me make the point once again.

"Never Again" is not a statement of fact, it is an aspirational statement. We have fallen short of that aspiration to a greater or lesser degree a number of times. However, it is still an aspirational statement.

Falling short of an aspiration is very far removed from calling it "meaningless". Once again, hyperbolic exaggeration is used instead of accurate description, because hyperbolic exaggeration is what Cat does.

That is all.

Yeah, that was Zelenskyy who said that.
It’s not ‘hyperbole’ to him or the innocent masses being slaughtered while you dismiss their genocide as ‘hyperbole’.

“Never again’ has been the slogan,” Zelenskyy, who is Jewish, said in his scathing remarks via video link from Kyiv. “But now it looks like it doesn’t mean anything. A people is being destroyed in Europe,” and the West stands idle.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/zelenskyy-holocaust-never-again-russia-germany-ukraine_n_623406e3e4b0f1e82c47bb32

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > It’s not ‘hyperbole’ to him or the innocent
> masses being slaughtered while you dismiss their
> genocide as ‘hyperbole’.

The way I read BoJ's post, and from what I know of him from his posts, he is NOT referring to "genocide as hyperbole" but rather to the word 'meaningless' in reference to "that whole 'Never Again' thing".

BoJ said recently in another post that his grandparents were of Eastern European descent and that they spoke Russian.

He has shown that he has a natural, familial, academic and generally well informed viewpoint on the current crisis overseas.


> “Never again’ has been the slogan,”
> Zelenskyy, who is Jewish, said in his scathing
> remarks via video link from Kyiv. “But now it
> looks like it doesn’t mean anything. A people is
> being destroyed in Europe,” and the West stands
> idle.

It is understandable that President Zelenskyy would be intense and emotional on behalf of his people about what is occurring in Ukraine as we speak. I'm not going to opine about what he should say or how it should be delivered. I understand the need for other leaders to be cautious and cool-headed about possible direct intervention. Unfortunately, many people in Ukraine don't have the luxury of time. I wish the West could show up this minute and rescue everybody and make this whole nightmare stop. It's never quite that simple though.

Zelenskyy being Jewish adds to the poignancy of his words. I hope world leaders can come up with a plan to put a quick end to the destruction and loss of life, which is completely unnecessary, brutal, tragic and unforgivable. I hope the people of Ukraine, including their president, know that we stand with them. So very unfortunately, these catastrophes take time to navigate. And grossly unfairly, innocent people suffer. But it's not because "the West" is sitting around ignoring their plight. Geopolitics is a thorny thicket indeed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2022 03:58PM by Nightingale.

“Genocide” is hyperbole, too. Putin is not seeking to eradicate an entire people: he is trying to conquer a country.

Sloppy thinking leads to bad decisions.

I was referring to calling "never again" meaningless, as Nightingale said. I'll cut Zelensky some slack for being hyperbolic. He is understandably stressed out, and desperately wants a NATO no-fly zone over Ukraine, which simply is not going to happen, no matter what kind of guilt trip he tries to lay on various nations. Having American pilots, or even NATO pilots shooting down Russian pilots is way too close to WWIII.

It would take something really extraordinary to cross that bridge. I'm not sure what would qualify (tactical nukes?), but the present situation does not.

I would say that Zelensky's job is to be hyperbolic, as was Churchill's during World War Two. Those men had to unite their nations to fight much more powerful foes; they also had to rally the support of other countries to their defense. It is their rhetoric that renders such figures powerful leaders.

But being truly heroic requires the ability to be both stentorious and calculating at the same time, and Zelensky has that ability. If he truly believed genocide were occurring, he would not be offering compromises such as Ukraine's demilitarization and neutralization. Once again the comedian surprises us: not only is he a great leader, he is astute enough to listen to his advisors and to differentiate between rhetorical flourish and substantive exigency.

Sometimes history unfolds in a way that reveals that a popular buffoon is anything but.

We didn't learn shit. Look how easily fascism has rolled in.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2022 11:19PM by Lot's Wife.

I'm going to offer another term that El Gato may find acceptable. Putin is not engaged in genocide or perpetrating a Holocaust, but he is waging a war of terror.

State terrorism is the use of violence to frighten the target into doing what one wants. It is more than "normal" warfare, which is aimed at gaining control of key targets. Rather, it is the indiscriminate use of violence against civilians in order to break their spirit and compel their government to sue for peace.

What Putin is doing in Ukraine--and what he did previously in Chechnya, Georgia, and Syria--is a form of terrorism.

I agree with Zelenskyy,”’Never again’ has been the slogan, but now it looks like it doesn’t mean anything. A people is being destroyed in Europe, and the West stands idle.”

I also agree WW3 will be much worse, and will last all of 1/2hr, so we need to avoid that at ALL costs.

War Crimes, terrorism, genocide are one thing, most of us will survive that, but hitting the big red button is another matter altogether. I agree Biden is taking the most pragmatic, sane approach, with tough economic sanctions that will bankrupt Russia, again. Apparently Putin learned nothing from the last time USSR went bankrupt fighting an unwinnable war.

I tried. . .

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Zelenskyy,”’Never again’ has
> been the slogan, but now it looks like it
> doesn’t mean anything. A people is being
> destroyed in Europe, and the West stands idle.”

I don't blame President Z for how he feels and how he chooses to express that and the needs of his country that is in peril.

But. Everything that you said after repeating Zelenskyy's statements and again stating your agreement with them does not then compute.

Eg:

> I also agree WW3 will be much worse, and will last
> all of 1/2hr, so we need to avoid that at ALL
> costs.

> War Crimes, terrorism, genocide are one thing,
> most of us will survive that, but hitting the big
> red button is another matter altogether.

> I agree Biden is taking the most pragmatic, sane approach,
> with tough economic sanctions

> ...(Russia) fighting an unwinnable war.

If all of those realities are true it stands to reason that "the West" must be cautious, and united, and realistic, and accurate in the decisions that are being taken and those to come.

That is what I see occurring as we speak.

Nobody is saying the situation isn't tragic and that bombing a maternity hospital and razing civilian neighbourhoods aren't war crimes. Or that a way shouldn't be found to stop the invasion ASAP.

I think we all agree more than you may realize. Obviously, every second the bombing, shooting, destruction and loss of life continue to occur is agonizing for those in the line of fire, literally, but even you, in your comments above, admit there are many considerations to be mulled over, an enormous challenge of getting all involved leaders to agree with decisions on how to proceed and the crucial matter of how to avoid widening and intensifying the conflict.

Absolutely we can all see Zelenskyy's impossible situation, his love of country and overarching concern for his people. Nothing short of absolute cessation of hostilities is his urgent aim, obviously and understandably.

But the other leaders have to consider the reality of the red button and proceed accordingly. Most unfortunately, that takes time. Time in which war crimes are being committed, definitely.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2022 12:16AM by Nightingale.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When you find yourself repeating Kremlin
> PRopoganda like Tucker Carlson, you know you’re
> on the wrong side of history!

It's not Kremlin propaganda to state facts, SC. What is occurring at the orders of what's-his-face definitely constitutes war crimes. But even he hasn't stated that his aim is to commit genocide. And what is occurring, while unspeakable, does not meet the definition.

Putin's stated aims:

BBC, March 17/22: “The Russian leader's initial aim was to overrun Ukraine and depose its government, ending for good its desire to join the Western defensive alliance Nato.”


Definition of Genocide – Holocaust Museum:

“Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:

*Killing members of the group

*Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

*Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

*Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

*Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

There are a number of other serious, violent crimes that do not fall under the specific definition of genocide. They include crimes against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and mass killing.”

-----

Indiscriminate bombing can be classified as a war crime. Invasion of Ukraine and targeting civilians can be considered a crime against humanity. Etc.

But strictly speaking, to date at least, Putin is not fixated on committing genocide.

It's important to classify, define and comprehend the situation accurately.

I also have to say it's a gross misstatement and really beyond the pale to accuse a fellow poster of being a Putin puppet. Really.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2022 05:31PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When you find yourself repeating Kremlin
> > PRopoganda like Tucker Carlson, you know
> you’re
> > on the wrong side of history!
>
> It's not Kremlin propaganda to state facts, SC.
> What is occurring at the orders of what's-his-face
> definitely constitutes war crimes. But even he
> hasn't stated that his aim is to commit genocide.

Neither did Stalin or Mao, but they killed far more people than Hitler.

> And what is occurring, while unspeakable, does not
> meet the definition.
>
> Putin's stated aims:
>
> BBC, March 17/22: “The Russian leader's initial
> aim was to overrun Ukraine and depose its
> government, ending for good its desire to join the
> Western defensive alliance Nato.”
>
Hey wants to reconstitute the former USSR, starting by eliminating Ukraine.

> Definition of Genocide – Holocaust Museum:
>
> “Genocide is an internationally recognized crime
> where acts are committed with the intent to
> destroy, in whole or in part, a national,

That’s the one.


ethnic,
> racial, or religious group. These acts fall into
> five categories:
>
> *Killing members of the group
>
> *Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members
> of the group
>
> *Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions
> of life calculated to bring about its physical
> destruction in whole or in part
>
> *Imposing measures intended to prevent births
> within the group
>
> *Forcibly transferring children of the group to
> another group
>
> There are a number of other serious, violent
> crimes that do not fall under the specific
> definition of genocide. They include crimes
> against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing,
> and mass killing.”
>
> -----
>
> Indiscriminate bombing can be classified as a war
> crime. Invasion of Ukraine and targeting civilians
> can be considered a crime against humanity. Etc.
>
> But strictly speaking, to date at least, Putin is
> not fixated on committing genocide.
>
> It's important to classify, define and comprehend
> the situation accurately.
>
> I also have to say it's a gross misstatement and
> really beyond the pale to accuse a fellow poster
> of being a Putin puppet. Really.

Accusing me of hyperbolic exaggeration for quoting verbatim Zelenskyy is doing the Kremlin’s work for them.

Nonsense. If Zelensky believed he was seeing genocide, he would not be offering to neutralize his country and leave it at Russia's mercy.

And with regard to "genocide," you've missed the point. Putin is not engaging in "acts [that] are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group." He's attempting to conquer a country and is killing people without regard to their national or ethnic identity. He is attacking Ukrainians, Jews, Poles, Russians, and anyone else without regard to their genetics or culture. His "intent" is territorial aggrandizement, not the "destruction" of "a national, ethnic, racial or religious group."

War crimes are horrible enough on their own. They do not require mischaracterization as "genocide" to garner people's attention. What is happening in Ukraine is not comparable to what happened in Hitler's Europe.

True.