It's my understanding that Outer Darkness is for those who consciously reject the LDS/Restoration Gospel (in the there or hereafter), and the most despicable of malefactors and sinners. Other unworthy types get the Telestial Kingdom: not nice, a place of service (servitude?) to those in the Celestial Kingdom, but not a place of torment.

For purposes of discussion, let's regard Christian Hell as a place of eternal torment, which may or may not involve literal flames.* And yes, most of you regard the doctrine negatively--I get that--but I'm interested in how Outer Darkness is similar to, or different from, Hell. Is Outer Darkness hot? Cold? Unspecified? Would a soul be drifting about there, alone? Or would souls be collected in one (or a few) places? Is Outer Darkness a spiritualized/metaphysical state, or is it located in some specific place in the Cosmos?

We might get some satisfaction thinking (or wishing) that Stalin is in Hell. Would a Mormon think the same about Stalin and Outer Darkness? Would a Mormon ever say "Go to Outer Darkness!" as an insulting epitaph?

* I regard the Biblical descriptions as symbolic.

PS: I also understand that what people have learned may not be defined doctrine, and doctrine has changed over the decades. Sources are appreciated, but not necessary: where did you learn something, and when?

Mormonism doesn't have a "hell." JS said that if humans knew how good the Telestial Kingdom would be, they'd kill themselves to get there.

Outer Darkness is reserved for those who sin against the HG, meaning that they had a sure knowledge of Jesus--having seen him or having received the 2A--and then denied that knowledge. There has been debate about whether premeditated murder might count as SAHG since it requires rebellion against the Light of Christ, the conscience, that all humans have.

It doesn't have a specific location, or at least is not described that way. Rather, it is total isolation from the light of God and companionship forever. It's not called "cold" or "hot," but it's always struck me as more likely to be cold.

"JS said that if humans knew how good the Telestial Kingdom would be, they'd kill themselves to get there."

I know the feeling. There are times I would have killed myself just to get out of F&T meeting.

I've been listening to Rabbi Manis Friedman on YouTube. He's a little unorthodox, pun not intended, and very illuminating. I would highly recommend him as recovery therapy, when one is ready to stop being mad at God.

The Jewish view is that the longest one
can spend in Hell, if you really screw up bad, is 12 months in Earth time. That is why the dead are mourned for 12 months, to cover the worst case.

Joseph's Outer Darkness strikes me as sci-fi in the vein of L Ron Hubbard. There's no rational or anthropological basis for it other than outright hate and malice against those who opposed Joseph's libertine abuse of power.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "JS said that if humans knew how good the
> Telestial Kingdom would be, they'd kill themselves
> to get there."
>
> I know the feeling. There are times I would have
> killed myself just to get out of F&T meeting.

Haha. Good one.


> I've been listening to Rabbi Manis Friedman on
> YouTube. He's a little unorthodox, pun not
> intended, and very illuminating. I would highly
> recommend him as recovery therapy, when one is
> ready to stop being mad at God.


1. I wouldn't characterize people who leave Mormonism or any similar type of faith as "being mad at God". That's kind of dismissive of their valid intellectual and emotional reasons for their choice.


2. Rabbi Friedman:

Online outline of Manis Friedman: [He] is a Hassid, rabbi, author, social philosopher and public speaker. He is also the dean of the Bais Chana Institute of Jewish Studies.


Info below from Wiki about the Rabbi - I know it’s subject to errors and edits but there would have to be major corrections to make this guy anybody I’d want to look up to. In fact, that ship has likely sailed, absent proof that he is being misrepresented in the comments below.

If this is supposed to be “humour”, it’s worse than deplorable. I don’t even know the word for it in that case.


On Femininity:

“Sociologist Lynn Davidman interviewed a number of students studying under Friedman in 1983. She quotes Friedman saying that a woman "violates herself" if she were to refrain from having children and that birth control is a "violent violation of a woman's being". Friedman insisted that the teenage angst experienced by girls stems from the fact that they are already biologically and psychologically ready for marriage but their urges are held back; he believes that girls should optimally get married at the age of fourteen.”


On Israeli-Arab Conflict:

“Friedman has claimed that the moral way to fight a war is to "Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)," and that if Israel followed this wisdom from the Bible, there would be "no civilian casualties, no children in the line of fire, no false sense of righteousness, in fact, no war." After receiving criticism Friedman clarified that "any neighbor of the Jewish people should be treated, as the Torah commands us, with respect and compassion." Friedman later clarified that when he was quoting from the Torah he was not advocating to actually kill anyone, rather if Israel would threaten to do these things, it would scare its enemies and prevent war.”


On Victims of Pedophilia:

“Friedman was quoted that survivors of child sexual abuse are not as deeply damaged as some claim and should learn to overcome their traumatic experiences. Friedman's comments were received poorly by advocates who saw his statements as trivialising the experiences of the victims. Friedman subsequently issued an apology for the offensive remarks.”


“On Victims of the Holocaust”

“According to the Australian Jewish News, Friedman, in a speech in the 1980s, framed the holocaust as part of a divine plan. Friedman reportedly stated “Who in fact died and who remained alive had nothing to do with the Nazis,” and “not a single Jewish child died because of the Nazis … they died in their relationship with God.” According to the paper, Friedman's statements were not well received by local holocaust survivors.”


That last sentence is quite the understatement, I imagine.


According to the rabbi, I have "violated" myself because I don't have children. People have many reasons for their choices in this regard and it's not up to others to criticize them.

Too, any time somebody has the impulse to make a Nazi "joke" - just stop.

Yeah. Not a fan.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2022 04:38PM by Nightingale.

Mormon scriptural reference:

D&C 76:45-48

"45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by \vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation."

What BYU has to say about it

https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-message-four-gospels/hell-second-death-lake-fire-brimstone-outer-darkness

The difference is that Outer Darkness is dark.

In Hell, at least you can see by the flickering fire light.

I will have to wait for schrodingerscat to weigh in on dark matter and the universal attractor.

Nailed it ! *LOL*

I don't think outer darkness has a lake of fire.

Only because the Vatican sold property rights to Disney.

But wait, we have Kolob with its streets of gold! Man, if I could hie there with a pick and shovel.

It’s the same thing, but mormons just renamed it. I hear a lot of comments like tithing is “fire insurance”, and the wicked shall burn on the last day, etc. So, it’s basically the same thing. Just another thing mormons stole.

Jesus wants me for a sunbeam, so he can pop you like ants with his big magnifying glass.

The church not only takes what is yours and sells it back to you, but also operates as a protection racket.

Did I ask some enlightened Jewish iconoclast to die on a cross for me? Like Mel Gibson's Jesus porn? Ew, that's gross. It doesn't even make any sense. The guy suffers for one lousy day, but didn't really die, and he's a big hero. Yabut, infinite atonement. Right. Magic, like Jaredite barges. I'm calling BS.

The only ones in outerdarkness i was told were the ones described as taking a secret oath manmahem or something and men who 'knew' each other in an abnormal way. Cain and his secret group, Christian hell is reserved for agnostics, atheists, Muslims, and anyone who hasn't confessed with the tounge, or been born again. And if your a catholic it's anyone who didn't get their last rites by the priest, and all protestants go to hell.

So these are completely different places.

People are mistaking the BoM hell for Mormon hell. They are not the same.

The BoM was composed when JS was trying to prove himself a great Christian reformer. It was forged in the evangelical revivals of his youth. Once it was published, though, it became basically irrelevant as a guide to Mormon theology.

[|] is right to focus on the D&C. That's where the Mormon doctrine that is taught and believed may be found. And there, "hell" is metaphor while the Three Degrees of Heaven is gospel.

You didn't like Joseph's Captain Cook novel?

Wish I could tell you why, but it's personal. Will "Asking for a fiend?" suffice?

And yes, even the disparaging wisecracks!

Here are some nifty diagrams of how Mormonism perceives the nature of existence.


https://d3ewd3ysu1dfsj.cloudfront.net/images/stories/large/27067.jpg?1456332731

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Sn32ik21jIo/UvP0E0d4uzI/AAAAAAAAAW4/QnvzUIu2FY4/s1600/salvation2.jpg

https://thirdhour.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/plan-of-salvation.jpg

Nary a hell to be seen.

The first seems to be a bare-bones version, appropriate perhaps for the first part of missionary lessons.
#2 offers a bit more.
#3 intrigues me. What's lacking is the specifics on the two resurrections/morning & evening (total 4?), and what are the screening or qualifications for each "cut."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2022 03:38PM by caffiend.

I don't really know that much about Outer Darkness, apart from how it's supposed to be where Satan, demons, and apostates are sent. Got to keep the members in line, you know.

I do think the Mormon doctrine of being with your family for eternity is similar to Hell as depicted in the play "No Exit," though.

Nothing. They are both make-believe.

It's like this ...


http://nowscape.com/mormon/images/Kolob_Mormon_Flowchart.gif

One VERY UNFORTUNATE, and distinct, difference is, to go to Mormonite OD you have to OD on LDS (Lost Deluded Saints).

I'd rather go to HELL, later, than here on earth!
(Which is the crux of LDSP, LDS Practices)
[To live in hell, TRAPPED as a MORMON]

And skip Morbidism all together

.................................
....✓HELL✓....YEA...
.................................