This falls under the "there are so many knowledgable people here that someone will know the answer"!

QUESTION: Is a "Brake Fluid Flush" necessary? Caliper is leaking fluid.


Background info (and a little ranting):

A couple weeks ago, my girls took my Jeep out in the snow. At some point, the right rear brake froze up and ground the pad down to nothing (it generated so much heat that the wheel is discolored). At some later point it also unfroze, but then has been raspy since the pad is worn out.

We have 3 cars between us, I am usually at home all day and one daughter rides the bus to work, so being "down" one vehicle isn't an issue. So no rush and I was debating fixing it myself, but finally took it to a shop earlier this week, dropped it off Tuesday night, noting the issue with the right rear wheel.

The guy called the next morning (Wed) and discussed it. Told me they were real busy but could probably work it in over the next couple days.

They called yesterday (Fri) afternoon. The first thing he says is, "Great news! The front brakes are fine."

Of course they are. I didn't even ask them to look at the front brakes.

The estimate is for $991, and they basically want to rebuild the rear brakes on both sides. I asked "why both sides?" He says "It's good to keep them 'balanced'."

FWIW, the Jeep only has 23k miles on it. It's like new. In fact, it's only not under warranty because it's just gone over 3 years old (although brakes might not be covered under warranty--I don't know).

My point about the age is that the left rear brakes are fine, just like the front.

I asked him to email me the estimate, while we were talking, but before we got off the phone I asked him to rework it for just the right rear wheel, which I assume will be half, but I still have not received it.

When I looked over bid, I realized that $95 is for a Brake Fluid Flush ("flush entire brake system until clean...").

I've had shops recommend "cooling system flushes" in the past because "residue was visible," and when I asked them to show me the "residue," it was antifreeze in the overflow tank. My experience is that shops will "recommend" lots of unnecessary work, for flimsy "by the book" reasons (or replacing pads and rotors with plenty of life left, to keep them "balanced").

All that to say, I doubt I need a Brake Fluid Flush. But, if fluid can leak out, "contaminants" could leak in. But do they? If so, wouldn't they be flushed out when the line is filled and bled?

I'm guessing the estimate will be about $550, with the flush, but I assume it would be $450 without the flush.


TBH, I'm so exasperated that I'm tempted to bring it home and do it myself. I can a new rotor, pads and caliper for less than $200. And I'm not working, so I have the time. But it's a hassle. And most shops around here charge a diagnostic fee if you don't have them do the work (understandable), which varies about is about $100. If I add that to the parts, then the nominal cost of letting them do the work isn't too bad.

Ok, rant over...

But I still wonder if a Brake System Flush is really necessary.

IMO if you don't trust what the shop is telling you (or what they are saying does not make sense to you,) it's time to find a new shop. My shop does not do unnecessary repairs.

Jeeps are rather specialized, so I would reach out on your local community website or app (i.e. Nextdoor or similar,) to see who other people recommend. I always use an independent shop with a stellar reputation, as opposed to a dealer.

What you pay someone to do to your car is up to you. They might refuse to do the work if they think it will leave the car in an unsafe condition and get you hurt and them sued. But that's up to them.

How much air got into the line because of the leak? How much air will get into the line when they pull the caliper off? Also brake fluid absorbs moisture, which makes it more compressible. That means your foot puts more work into squishing fluid than into squishing calipers. At three years old, you may already be experiencing some performance fade. Whether you want to do the flush is up to you. Personally, I love the nice, firm feel I get at the pedal after a fresh fluid change.

I'll add that I've done some wonky stuff to my cars to keep them running, especially when I was poor and the cars were old. But on something newer, I'd at least consider doing both sides... I wouldn't want to worry about replacement intervals on each side independently, you'll pay more in the long run just on shop overhead.

For a job totaling almost $1,000 involving a safety-essential job like brakes, I'd say do the full job including the brake fluid flush. This is no place to economize or take a chance.

Jeeps (a Wrangler, I assume?) are good rough-road vehicles, but not as off-road as people think unless they're jacked up and a heavier suspension installed. (That means larger wheels, too.) My guess is your daughter took it joy-riding into deeper, or icier, snow than she should have and damaged the rear brake lines. She's understandably reluctant to provide every detail.

Be grateful that your daughter didn't get stranded someplace and got home okay, and talk to her about the car's limitations, worthy as it is. Shops nowadays use fairly standardized parts and labor computations, including things like "shop supplies" and "waste product disposal" fees. You might find a shop which will do it a bit cheaper, but not by much. I suggest you suck it up and authorize the complete job.

Perspective! We're all financially hurting, but this is, after all, a First-World problem. Your loved ones are safe. Keep them that way.

Edit: Re-reading your post, Elder Stinky, discuss with your family the importance to cease operation of a vehicle when something doesn't sound or feel right. They should have pulled the Jeep over immediately and called. Also, I'm impressed that your shop checked the front brakes, even if that wasn't on your order list--it tells me they were being thorough. Check their ratings and reviews, but on the basis of minimal information they sound trustworthy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2022 01:42PM by caffiend.

in b 4 ~


OPie's brake fluid is the life-blood of OPie's braking system ~


kin of like oil is the life-blood of the engine ~


it do not hurt to flush it out with some new fluid from time to time ~

exspesh when having when having brake work done ~


also ~


always have both sides done ~


it is for you and your loved ones safety OPie ~


also ~


you cannot take your loved ones out to eat with out dropping $100 OPie ~


step your game op OPie ~


spend that money ~


that is what it is for OPie ~

First, You should NEVER just do one brake set on the same axle. Always do both.

Second, If the caliper is leaking AND if it got that hot, you really need to flush the brake fluid. And that means all four brake calipers and/or drums. The old adage I remember from the early days in my engineering career is this. If something leaks out, something can and will get sucked in. Prudence says that you need to flush out all that old fluid to get clean fluid in and get all the dirt and crap out that can damage the seals in the rebuilt calipers.

Also, if it got that hot I would be replacing any hoses that go from the caliper to the hard tubing. Rubber does not like heat....

Do not cut corners and take chances, And this would not be covered under a warranty, since you drove the car after the problem started.

Good luck.

First of all, the brakes didn't "freeze up". Your daughter drove it with the emergency brake on. Second, you always replace both sides when doing brakes. Did you need a new rotor/drum? $991.00 is a lot for that job. Most tire/brake shops charge about $100.00 per axle, plus the costs of rotors/drums if needed. If the caliper is leaking, it needs to be replaced as well. Nobody rebuilds calipers anymore. When you replace a caliper, yes, you flush all 4 lines with new brake fluid. I would think the entire job should be less than $600.00 including parts. Ask your shop if the "Frozen" and worn out side was also the E brake side. Then you'll have your answer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2022 03:15PM by stillanon.

stillanon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First of all, the brakes didn't "freeze up". Your
> daughter drove it with the emergency brake on.


No, she didn't drive with the emergency brake on. Why make a contradictory assertion when you don't really know?

The Wrangler has disc brakes, but the parking brake is drum style and the "drum" and rotor are an integrated unit, drum inside the radius of the rotor. In this case, the pad is worn down to nothing, the rotor has excessive wear, and the caliper is leaking, but the drum part is fine, and the parking brake is still working fine.

"Frozen" or seized calipers are a fairly common problem on Wranglers. Google to confirm.

I'm fully aware how drum brakes work. Brakes also heat up to over 1500 degrees when used, so the snow doesn't effect them. How about E Brake U-turns? Kids, and adults (I'm guilty) do E brake turns in the snow. That can also blow the seals on the caliper pistons. Is there a long term brake fluid spot near the rear wheel where you park? If not, the caliper seals blew while doing something outside normal driving conditions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2022 05:04PM by stillanon.

As I explained above, the parking brake, which I assume is what you mean by "E-brake", is working fine. Still. The normal brake pads and rotor are what are worn out. That doesn't happen from a handful of U-turns. It happens from driving relatively long distance with the non-parking brake pads dragging on the disc.

Frankly, Wranglers are short and stubby, and not really "good" for sliding anyway. Their own cars would be more "satisfying" for sliding if that's what they were interested in doing.

My daughters made the ~80 mile round trip into the city to pick up a friend, at the train station, and then again to drop off her off the next day, plus a little from-the-car site seeing since we live near DC. I said, "take the Jeep" because it has four wheel drive, and there was snow and the threat of more.

Why are you so eager to think poorly of my daughters?

In your previous posts you said drum brakes. Then you said rotors. So what is it? Are your rear brakes drum or rotors. You can't have the E-brake on a drum if you have disc brakes.

Oh, and re. "frozen," I realize that it's easy to conflate "snow" and "frozen," and to that extent my first post may have been ambiguous, but I clarified above that by frozen I meant "seized." One of the definitions of frozen is "rigid, immovable." That's the case here. The calipers seized. Stuck clamped on the rotor, causing drag and excess friction.

You have only 23K miles on it ? Just get the broken side repaired. At minimum you will need a new caliper, rotor, pads on one side.

That's absolutely the wrong advice. If you change one side and not the other, you will be changing the rear brakes twice as often. Change this one at 23K and then change the other one at 40K and then the new one at 60K? How does that make sense? Plus, most shops wont replace one side, especially when you're replacing the rotor. Replace both rotors and pads and now both side are on the same replacement sked. You don't skimp on brake repairs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2022 03:53PM by stillanon.

``````````\|||/
``````````(0 o)
|--ooO-----(0)---------------|
|-------DaveTheAtheist--------|
|-------------is-not----------|
|--------2-B-trusted----------|
|-------------Ooo-----------|
````````|__|__|
````````||``||
```````ooO Ooo

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have only 23K miles on it ? Just get the
> broken side repaired. At minimum you will need a
> new caliper, rotor, pads on one side.


Exactly! I don't understand all the "you gotta do both sides" comments. Sure, if this was routine maintenance because the brakes were worn out, then, yeah, it would be stupid to do only one side and not the other. But it's not maintenance because they wore out. It's a repair because ONE malfunctioned. Only the one needs attention. The other side is in just as good of shape as the front. Probably better since the front tend to do most of the work, and wear faster.

The more wear on the pads, the more it would arguably make sense to change the PADS on both sides, to keep them "balanced," but that does not require two rotors, calipers, and hoses. Not to mention the associated labor. Those pads have plenty of life left, and the other parts are absolutely fine.

If this happened the day it drove off the lot, no one would dream of insisting on doing the other side. It's a judgement call as to how much wear is on the other side. And I'm not hard on brakes. I changed the pads in my previous Jeep only once in 150k miles. At 23k, these are much closer to new than they are to requiring replacement.

Go find a reputable shop that won't replace both rotors. Good luck with that. Find a reputable tire shop that will only replace one front tire. They don't exist. You don't need to replace hoses unless one burst, which would release pressure on the caliper, not cause it to freeze up. Just replace the damn pads. They cost very little to keep you and your kids safe. I've done more brake jobs than I can count. I've worked on suspensions and brakes for Indy light, NASCAR and Pike's Peak Hill Climb cars. Write down the extra cost to do both sides, vs. the value of your daughters lives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2022 04:58PM by stillanon.

This is like a Mormon double bind: if you define "reputable" as "one that won't change only one side", then, no, I can't find one.

The pads on the "good side" don't need to be replaced. Even you acknowledged above that it really only puts them on different maintenance schedules. That's not "danger." At worst it's inconvenient. The front will wear out before they do. They can be changed then. Or not. They all start making noise before they go bad.

No danger.

Some of y'all seem to have never been poor...

There is nothing inherently unsafe with only replacing the broken side.

It does make your maintenance schedule a pain in the ass and will probably cost you more in the long run, depending on how long you keep the car.

Just for the record, I'm not poor.

I'm a retired software engineer. And I recently retired from ten years of university teaching after that.

I did learn how to do a lot of this stuff when I WAS young and poor, and I actually enjoy doing some of this sort of work. And since I'm not working, I have the time. I can easily change brake pads. And will (I sort of resent some of you implying that I would endanger my family's lives).

I DO NOT like disconnecting the fluid lines, and/or bleeding the lines. It's also not a one-person job. So I'd rather a shop do that. I can change the other pads when their time comes.


I just resent someone feeling entitled to take my money, and to do it unethically (IMO). And to be doing it over and over to other people. Ziller mentioned that I might drop $100 on dinner. Well, I'd rather take my girls out to dinner 4.5 times than let someone take $450 from me. My money. My choice.

Flush the fluid. Get rid of the contamination - boiled fluid, metal flakes and moisture (water) content.

I hear what people are saying about the fluid, and will probably let them do it. This was the basic question of my post, so thanks to those who addressed it.

$95 of the estimate is for the flush. $900 is for the rest, so $450 is just extra expense.

Just to re-cap:

The damage requires:

- Right-side pads
- Right-side caliper
- Right-side rotor
- Right-side hose (probably)

They also want me to replace undamaged:

- Left-side pads **
- Left-side caliper
- Left-side rotor
- Left-side hose

** I understand the perspective some of you have about replacing the pads on both sides, but pads are cheap.

The rest of that work, parts and labor is not cheap, and it's absolutely unnecessary. Even if you think the pads ought to be changed, you can't argue about the rest.

I asked them to diagnose the problem and estimate repair, and half of what they "recommend" is absolutely unnecessary.


I asked my oldest daughter, who owns her own car, what would she do if that's what they had recommended to her. "I'd pay it." They are essentially cheating people who don't know any better.

Take the write up recommendations. If not, do it yourself, bleeding your brakes is simple, if you have the knowledge and a ten year old kid that can understand pumping and holding. If you need help, ask me. You bleed from the furthest from the master cylinder to end at the closest. By the time you've bled all 4 wheels, you'll have flushed the old fluid out and replaced it with new fluid. All you need is a new bottle of brake fluid, a big mason jar, some fish tank hose to fit over the caliper/drum nozzle and a 5/16 wrench for the rears and 3/8 for the front.

What caused the right caliper to lock up? Brakes don't just lock up. My bet is the caliper and or the guides for the pads are rusted. So if you consider the possiblity that the bore in the caliper is rusted and would not let the piston retract that .005" or so, then is it not reasonable to assume the left side might have the same problem in a few months or a year?

Just food for thought.

The problem here is not so much the mileage, it's the age. Brake fluid absorbs water which then creates rust in the calipers. Have the shop look at the left side, make sure the slides/rails etc for the caliper are rust free. Make sure the piston moves in the caliper. Also, I would not expect half the cost. It will be more than half. Have them check out the left side and make sure you don't have a repeated problem in a few months. It may be as simple as pulling the pads out and wire brushing the slides and putting anti seize on to slow the formation of rust.

Best

Do you understand why no reputable shop won't do what you're suggesting? They're not high school kids trying to save a buck over safety. The would be sued out of existence if they made that repair that you'd like, when it fails. Google Ralph Bruning, Pikes Peak Hill climb. I did his brakes (although Ralph hardly touched his brakes going up.) And yes, Chandler was my friend.

Stillanon, feathers not hammers. Most engineers need proof. If the shop shows Stinky why the right side locked and the left side will have a high probablity of doing the same, then they will decide to do both.

If it were my vehicle I would do both sides. Brake hose? Possibly. If I recall correctly the Jeep brake hose is in the center of the axle. not anywhere near the caliper. Steel lines go to the calipers. There is a possibility that the rubber lining of the brake hose has curled up blocking return of the brake fluid. Failure from heat. Not very likely.

$900 bucks does seem a little steep. Perhaps Stinky should contact the dealer and a couple of other shops to find out the average cost for two rotors, two calipers a brake hose and a fluid flush.

Best

Correction! I made an error. There are brake hoses on each left and right caliper. I was thinking of drum brakes. Just to be safe, the right side hose probably should be replaced.

I was thinking of drum brakes. Sorry!

why does OPie not do the work himself this weekend ? ~


instead of spending time with his girls ~


OPie could be buying parts ~


an renting tools ~


an busting knuckles ~


an looking up how-to vids on utube ~


an bleeding brakes ~


an test driving the jeep to make sure OPie got it right b 4 letting his loved one drive it ~


OPie's mechanic is working cheep ~

Unfortunately, yes, the system needs to be flushed. Burnt brake fluid doesn't function properly. And if the brake got that hot, the odds are the fluid got burnt.

Just be sure your Holy McGhost is up and running.

He always did both sides when repairing brakes. It was always about safety.

I have yet to see anyone articulate the specifics behind the safety claims.

What caused the problem? Was it rust? Was it an ABS failure? At the very least, the left side should be checked for problems. If there was an ABS failure, it will happen again. If it's rust, perhaps not. I ran this scenario past a couple of mechanic friends and the reply was use the scan tool and run the diagnostic tree for the ABS, and check both calipers for seizing caused by rust. Both need to be done.

I'm hoping the OP's repair shop isn't going to use the parts cannon and change both calipers, rotors and all the hoses, just to have a repeat failure when the real problem is a failed abs module or a dead abs wheel sensor.

Did I answer your question? Probably not. As far as changing pads? Well, you have the dang thing apart already, why not throw a set of pads in it? The left rotor can be turned for $15. If the left caliper is ok. Don't change it.

You're answering a different question regarding the prudence of finding root cause (and your points are well worth the OP's consideration).

Question. What would you do in this situation? Would you just change the rotor and pads on the right side and let the left go?

I get that you have replaced pads on your vehicle on just one side. Actually, so have I. So I concede that. The caliper was rusted in it's slide, so the inner pad against the piston was trashed way before the rest.

In this case, if it were your vehicle and at 23K miles the right side brakes got so hot that it discolored the wheel. Figuratively "burned to the ground". Both pads

In this case. For this vehicle. Would you just replace pads on just one side. Would you change the caliper? Where would you start and where to stop?

Also, what is safe or not? If the rear brakes lock up again? My mother's Buick had a rear brake locking problem and the thing would try to switch ends. She loaned me her car. I had a panic stop and the thing was unruly. Wheel locks, tires lose traction and the rear tries to pass the front.

So what would you do? You work as a pro at a repair shop. What would you do?

For $400 difference, I would pay it and have peace of mind that nothing else would go wrong with brakes, especially if a family member was driving.

When someone is driving a vehicle and doesn't realize they need to stop when something is going wrong, then you need to keep the vehicle is as good of mechanical shape as possible.

I just bought four new tires at Firestone. Naturally, the tires are the least of the cost. I caught them adding "lifetime tire balancing" ($190)and "road hazard repair" ($90) that I didn't ask for. Moral: always read the itemized bill before paying.