I am active in a Mesa, Az. ward with a busy calling, wife and young children.

Read some information provided to me by a friend, and as a result, have had several"light bulb" moments causing mental distress.

Before opening up to leaders with questions, am wondering what people on this board think some answers may look like.

1. Is the Book of Mormon literal?

2. If it's literal, then Jesus Christ killed millions of sinners after being crucified? (3rd Nephi)

3. If the Book of Mormon isn't literal, does that mean the church isn't God's primary church on earth, but just one church of many?

4. If the book of Abraham is a modern document, does that mean the church isn't "true" as well?

5. If both books are modern documents, is it correct to teach that people who leave the church have lost the spirit as a result of disobedience to commandments?

Just my opinion, of course...

1. The Book of Mormon is 19th century Bible fan fiction

2. If it was literal, Jesus also killed innocent children

3. If there is a God, who says he needs one primary church?

4. The Book of Abraham is 19th century Egyptian fan fiction

5. Brainwashing can be powerful stuff, right?

posters think his leaders will provide as answers, not what our answers would be.

Well, in that case...

"Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith."

"Stay in the boat."

"If you leave, where will you go?"

"I don't know how the Book of Abraham got translated, but I know it got translated into the word of God."

"Have you prayed about it?"

"The Book of Mormon is not a history textbook."

the book of mormon is a poorly written, heavily plagiarized, 19th century work of fiction

I left for life reasons. The rest has been icing on the cake. My whole family except a disabled brother and my daughter are out of the church now.

My uncle was a bishop in Mesa and he was over the recreation dept for years. He died 14 years ago next month during a bike race. Those things might ring a bell for you.

Congratulations Confused in Arizona for questioning what you have been taught about the church. I started seriously questioning about 15 years ago.
I was "converted" when I went to Ricks over 4 decades ago. I was so desperate to have something real to believe in, and I was very vulnerable at that time. I brushed aside the doubts I had and embraced the gospel wholeheartedly.
I remember my welding/metallurgy teacher at Ricks talking about the references in the Book of Mormon about steel and sword making. He made it quite clear that there was no possible way that with the technology of the era that the Nephites and/or the Lamanites could have made the quantity of steel swords that the BOM claims. To make just one steel sword would be extremely labor intensive. It would have required a major industrial manufacturing base to make the number of swords referenced in the BOM.
He could have got in a lot of trouble because what he said was "not faith promoting."
The BOM and the Book of Ether talk at length about ship building. Again, they simply did not have the tools or the technology or the necessary dry dock to build such ships or barges.
Church leaders have been himming and hawing about whether or not the BOM is literal. Cloroform in print is what it is.
Yes, the Mormon Church is just one church among many.

One of the best references that completely demolishes the claims of the church - especially the Book of Abraham - is Jerrold and Sandra Tanner's tour de force "Mormonism - Shadow or Reality." They cover just about everything in that book.

It is most certainly not correct to teach that people who leave the church have lost the spirit as a result of disobedience to commandments. I left the church because I finally realized it was not true, that Joseph Smith was a pedophile and sexual predator and married and had sexual relations with teenage girls and other men's wives, and that I was so tired of being lied to. I paid out a lot of tithing and fast offerings for nothing. I should have put that money in separate accounts for my four children. The church is a giant ponzi scheme and the leaders are desperate to keep the con going.
I am grateful for a few things however. I have not used tobacco or alcohol in any form since July 17, 1978. I am thankful for the word of wisdom.
I have made it clear to my still active in the church wife that I will never set foot in a Mormon Church again. The pain I have experienced from finally realizing I was conned is hard for me to bear, but I am putting it all behind me. I do not go to any church and I want nothing to do with organized religion.
There are a lot of good people on this site who will help you anyway they can. This site has helped me so much in my journey to freedom. Thank you.

Like with the Bible, the tendency is for people to decide the parts that become socially unacceptable were never literal. However, many times they were taught to be literal as we all remember. Cherry picking is required.

If you are indeed an active person posting here, you are showing you are willing to do your own research. The church teachings require people using blinders to avoid looking at factual criticism.

I suggest you read By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri (9780962096327) by Larson, Charles M.
I'm sure it is free on line to read somewhere. If you want some insight into the papyrus fiasco, this will help clear the air.

As you learn more, you will see that the D&C was basically a way for JS to get whatever he wanted (your farm, more women, etc.) using God as validation.

There are so many books that expose the fraudulent nature of the BoM. Oddly, most of those books for me were church history books written by church historians and JS and BY themselves.

A good many of us took "studying the gospel" seriously which leads to figuring out what was really going on. You will begin to identify extreme mental gymnastics to explain away problems you encounter. Faith is the mechanism used to override facts.

If you are looking for what kind of responses your leaders will give this is a good site. Gramps channels priesthood answers to tough questions well.

For my part I hope you leave Mormonism.

https://askgramps.org/

confused in arizona, welcome! 11 years ago I was just like you. I made the mistake of approaching my church leadership and found out quickly that such questioning would lead to my excommunication. I tell you this as a caution.

One of the best sources online without reading too many books that has valid factual information already organized by subjects with citations is Mormonthink.com

This forum is a really good source but sometimes the jokes and sarcasm from folks here might be tough to follow and sometimes can be too direct in nature. It's not intended to offend you or anyone like you, it is just that so many of us are already far past your stage and we try to find humor in odd ways to entertain ourselves.

At the end of the day, the folks here are super smart, well read on a variety of subjects, and they enjoy a joke or two.

Don't be a stranger keep on posting with us!

I agree with this welcome here post and the suggestions.

Questions are good. Don't listen to anyone who says otherwise, especially those with transparent motives to keep others from thinking, and despite what church leaders and many members may say. If their religion is "true" what do they have to fear from research and questions?

Yes, posters joke around here but that's usually after time has passed for them and they've processed their Mormon background and the leaving of it.

If you ask your questions, the bright, articulate ex-Mormons here will give you straight answers as well as suggestions to help navigate you on your search.

It's a lot to process but your thoughts, questions and reactions are valid. All the best to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2022 02:12PM by Nightingale.

onthedownlow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At the end of the day, the folks here are super
> smart, well read on a variety of subjects, and
> they enjoy a joke or two.

Nevermo me first came to this board as the result of a random Google search (and, no, I can't remember what I initially Googled for).

When I got here, though, I was amazed by the "super smart, well read on a variety of subjects" people I found here.

I've been here ever since (maybe twenty years now?).

This is a wonderful board, with tremendous people, and it has added immensely to my life.

Yay for RfM!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2022 02:21PM by Tevai.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2022 02:48AM by Soft Machine.

1-3 The Book of Mormon was written by Smith in the early 1800s.

4 The Book of Abraham was a mistranslation by Smith of an ancient document.

5 of course there are no commandments, as the term is used here.

References:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2177700

https://archive.ph/20170404222749/http://signaturebooks.com/a-response-to-translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham-by-dr-robert-ritner/

I think your bishop may counsel you to not think for yourself. It may lead you to leave the church before something great is about to happen, like the church making another billion dollars!

OT: My sister and I were born in Thatcher! My grandfather served as everyone's advisor, and gave them financial help if needed. He built and maintained and operated the cities only store, and would buy elsewhere what someone wanted and have it shipped to Thatcher. He also sent two of his sons up into the nearby hills, to cut cubes of ice to bring home and keep under ground to maintain their usability. He shared the ice with whomever wanted some.

As my grandmother became a widow, he gave her the job of postmistress across the street from the main house. She was an identical twin, and told us stories of their ringleader down the middle of the street--in men's clothing! (Never heard of such going's-on in those days!)

Poncho Via lived about 4 blocks away from Thatcher, in Mexico. As you may already be aware, he never killed anyone--but he sure knew how to "appropriate" whatever he needed from the white man in Mexico.

My grandfather, who 'settled' the town in Thatcher, and then homesteaded in Mexico. He took advantage of owning the property by use of this method, and built two homes right across the dirt road from each other in Mexico, putting his wife and kids in one of them to prove ownership.

Eventually, it became too difficult to maintain both properties (due mostly to Poncho's thievery), so they sold their property and moved back across the border, him via an old dirt road where he could make the trip without being charged, or stoped, and sent his wife and kids across via the railroad.

My grandfather didn't believe in paper money, and delt only with silver dollars--the value of which would go up, never down. He gave me one of these coins to get me out of the house, as I loved to lay on the floor and listen to the folks talk.

Sorry, I took so much advantage of your post, but it appears I couldn't help myself, as it brought back so many memories.

pollythinks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
My father was born in Thather in 1902>

OT: My sister and I were born in Thatcher! My
> grandfather served as everyone's advisor, and gave
> them financial help if needed. He built and
> maintained and operated the cities only store, and
> would buy elsewhere what someone wanted and have
> it shipped to Thatcher. He also sent two of his
> sons up into the nearby hills, to cut cubes of ice
> to bring home and keep under ground to maintain
> their usability. He shared the ice with whomever
> wanted some.
>
> As my grandmother became a widow, he gave her the
> job of postmistress across the street from the
> main house. She was an identical twin, and told
> us stories of their ringleader down the middle of
> the street--in men's clothing! (Never heard of
> such going's-on in those days!)
>
> Poncho Via lived about 4 blocks away from
> Thatcher, in Mexico. As you may already be aware,
> he never killed anyone--but he sure knew how to
> "appropriate" whatever he needed from the white
> man in Mexico.
>
> My grandfather, who 'settled' the town in
> Thatcher, and then homesteaded in Mexico. He
> took advantage of owning the property by use of
> this method, and built two homes right across the
> dirt road from each other in Mexico, putting his
> wife and kids in one of them to prove ownership.
>
> Eventually, it became too difficult to maintain
> both properties (due mostly to Poncho's thievery),
> so they sold their property and moved back across
> the border, him via an old dirt road where he
> could make the trip without being charged, or
> stoped, and sent his wife and kids across via the
> railroad.
>
> My grandfather didn't believe in paper money, and
> delt only with silver dollars--the value of which
> would go up, never down. He gave me one of these
> coins to get me out of the house, as I loved to
> lay on the floor and listen to the folks talk.
>
> Sorry, I took so much advantage of your post, but
> it appears I couldn't help myself, as it brought
> back so many memories.

Others might disagree and you need to do what's best for you, but I probably wouldn't go to leaders with many questions. That really backfired for me. And honestly, they don't have any good answers.

I've been out of the church for eight years and there is one piece of advice that I've heard from active Mormons multiple times in those years (even last week) when they can't come up with good answers to problematic church issues. They say that I should spend as much time reading church approved sources as I spend reading sources that aren't church approved. I think it might be useful to come up with a response for that. First off, however long you've been in the church, you've only been exposed to church approved sources, so you've spent plenty of time learning what the church wants you to know. Second, do Mormons give equal time to multiple points of view or other sources outside the church? Nope. They don't usually follow their own advice and by their own logic can't be considered experts about their church when they only get their information from one source.

Good luck to you!

Asking these questions will raise red flags with them about why you're having questions and doubts, and it will prime them to try to drive a wedge between you and your spouse. If you expect to keep your family, you need to be smart about how you go about this, because you can definitely expect that they'll try to get your wife and children away from you.


As for the answers you'll get to your questions:

1. The leaders of the church have said that the Book of Mormon is not a history book, but members treat it as such, so yes, they consider it to be literal.

2. Yes, Jesus Christ killed millions - it doesn't say that they were even sinners - consider the cities of Moroni and Moronihah. But God's ways are not ours, so what are you questioning it for?

3. Question is meaningless, as the local members consider the Book of Mormon to be literal.

4. Question is meaningless, as the local members consider the Book of Abraham to be an ancient document too.

5. Your premise is false per most members. Since the coming forth of these ancient books is by the power of God and this is His church, then people who have left the church have clearly lost the spirit - for whatever reason, be it disobedience to commandments, weak testimonies, temptation, etc.



All that said, I'll just stress again: take care to keep your loved ones and your family intact. This is a hard row to hoe, and they will try to tear you apart.

Tyson



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2022 12:52PM by Tyson Dunn.

This is really good advice.

"confused in arizona" needs to recognize that his own family and his wife's family, as well as their friends, business associates, and ward members all have a stake in his family maintaining the appearance of being believing members to reinforce their sense that what they believe in is right.

And if they think his wife and children need to be "protected" from his apostasy, they'll act accordingly.

Tyson

They will. Luckily my family chose me but it is a daily struggle.

It is good that you are questioning some things about the church, because questions will lead you to the truth. You’re probably familiar with this quote:” And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.”

My suggestion would be to read a few books such as “No Man Knows My History” by Fawn Brodie, and some very interesting things by Gerald and Sandra Tanner.

You need to know facts and truth about buying a house or a car to make an informed decision and the same is true for knowing what TSCC is really all about.

RFM is a great place and there are very bright, knowledgeable people here and it’s a good place to vent and to learn.

Looking forward to reading more of your posts.

I second reading No Man Knows My History. Fawn Brodie was David O. McKay's niece and he gave her access to much that others weren't allowed to see. She was a well respected biographer for her time doing solid research and famous for her book on Jefferson. I read NMKNH decades after leaving the church back in the seventies and finally reading something factual with that much supporting evidence from Joseph's time via letters, court documents, diaries, newspaper clippings etc gave me answers and peace.

This life has no purpose is you are not thinking for yourself. Do not doubt your doubts. You know that is crooked advice. How could honestly searching for the truth be wrong?

If you are questioning LDS principles, you already know the truth. The real question is how you deal with it now.
-What does your wife think?
-Are you going to continue pretending to believe?
-Can you handle being ostracized by your TBM friends and family?

The truth shall set you free.

No decent person would insult you for leaving a church, school, organization, or business, if you feel that it is in your best interest to do so. You are at the beginning of an interesting journey, should you continue to pursue it. I would liken it to the moment in The Wizard of Oz when Toto pulls back the curtain. Things are not what you thought they were.

Please take your time to explore the extensive resources that have been recommended to you. This site is a wonderful resource, as is Mormon Think and many more.

http://www.mormonthink.com/

Regarding Joseph Smith -- I remember years ago looking up the statistics, and the average age of first marriage for American women in the mid-1800s was about 23. Even on the frontier, the average age was about 20-21. It was never, ever normal to marry young teenagers any more than it is normal now. And contrary to what many people believe, the numbers of men and women on the frontier were always about equal. There was never any shortage of women.

The Mormon church has lied to you for years.

1. Is the Book of Mormon literal?

A-It's supposed be, it is taught that way on Sunday.

2. If it's literal, then Jesus Christ killed millions of sinners after being crucified? (3rd Nephi)

A-Exactly, makes no sense, HOWEVER there are multiple sections in "The Late War" that mirror this part really close. What he was doing was making the bible fan fiction fit the source material. Do a search for "3 Nephi" and prepare to have your mind blown http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/

3. If the Book of Mormon isn't literal, does that mean the church isn't God's primary church on earth, but just one church of many?

A-Pretty much, it also makes it the same as the RLDS from Missouri

4. If the book of Abraham is a modern document, does that mean the church isn't "true" as well?

A-Exactly, if JS got that wrong, what else was he wrong about.

5. If both books are modern documents, is it correct to teach that people who leave the church have lost the spirit as a result of disobedience to commandments?

A-No, we left because we found out it isn't true.

Mesa/Gilbert native, living in Utah county now. You are in good hands on this board. I left after learning of John Dehlin, reading the CES letter and Rough Stone Rolling, and then a mountain of other things like Wife No 19. You're in for a roller coaster but you need to trust yourself, your intuition, and the scientific search for truth! It will be ok! Several of my good friends from the same area are out as well. You will find your people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2022 10:49AM by dinosaurprincess.

My mother was born in Mesa in 1921
My father was born in Provo in 1912

Most of my 100s of relatives are still active.

If you go to 'the leaders', I'm pretty certain they won't have any answers that will quench your thirst.

They will prolly tell you to pray harder and longer. Oops

Literal or not, the Mormon leaders have always claimed the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel.

You've read it. Does it? Decide for yourself.

What I saw in the BoM was in the end a very long, very wordy, type of story any young guy fascinated with Native Americans would write. And don't forget Joseph's mother use to brag about what a great story teller he was as a kid.

Answer the questions THEY SHOULD HAVE ASKED!

"1. Is the Book of Mormon literal?"

The church wants to have it both ways. It expects the members to regard it as literal while sloooowly backing away from that position. Nelson has said the BOM "is not a textbook of history."


"2. If it's literal, then Jesus Christ killed millions of sinners after being crucified?"

Not just "sinners," but innocents too. There had to be children in those "great cities" he burned and drowned. And he didn't just slaughter them, he *bragged* about it (ch. 9).


"3. If the Book of Mormon isn't literal, does that mean the church isn't God's primary church on earth, but just one church of many?"

No better than any of them, and worse than most.


"4. If the book of Abraham is a modern document, does that mean the church isn't 'true' as well?"

The BOA has driven more people out of the church than anything except polygamy and mormon behavior. The book is a fraud and the church isn't "true" by any definition. Do you honestly believe the church would canonize the BOA today, knowing that we can read Egyptian hieroglyphics?


"5. If both books are modern documents, is it correct to teach that people who leave the church have lost the spirit as a result of disobedience to commandments?"

Of course it isn't correct to teach that. That's just one more thought-stopper that mormons say to make themselves feel better and more righteous.

confused in arizona Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am active in a Mesa, Az. ward with a busy
> calling, wife and young children.
>
> Read some information provided to me by a friend,
> and as a result, have had several"light bulb"
> moments causing mental distress.
>
> Before opening up to leaders with questions, am
> wondering what people on this board think some
> answers may look like.
>
> 1. Is the Book of Mormon literal?

As Grant Palmer points out in “Insiders View of Mormon Origins” The BoM is a 19th C attempt to answer the big theological question of the 19th C, where did these all of these huge New World Civilizations come from and why didn’t God bother mentioning them in the Bible?

Joe Smith’s Answer: They’re degenerate wandering Jews who were cursed with dark skin for the sins of their fathers.

> 2. If it's literal, then Jesus Christ killed
> millions of sinners after being crucified? (3rd
> Nephi)

It’s a racist fantasy.

> 3. If the Book of Mormon isn't literal, does that
> mean the church isn't God's primary church on
> earth, but just one church of many?

Yes. There are 35,000 different Christian denominations, each believing their particular God loves them and only them and will therefore save them and only them from death and damn ‘others’ to eternal torture.

> 4. If the book of Abraham is a modern document,
> does that mean the church isn't "true" as well?

It means Joseph Smith was lying through his teeth when he claimed a 2,000 y.o. Common Egyptian Funerey scroll was authored by Abraham himself, when he supposedly lived 4,000 years ago.

> 5. If both books are modern documents, is it
> correct to teach that people who leave the church
> have lost the spirit as a result of disobedience
> to commandments?

No. It’s hateful and dehumanizing, but LDS Inc specializes in ‘othering’ anybody who rejects their particular brand of group think delusion (faith).

In the spirit of Occam's Razor, where when you have competing theories or explanations the simpler one is preferred, which is more likely: the convoluted explanations offered by church leaders and apologists, involving miracles, mysteries and appeals to feelings, or the possibility it was all made up?

And which is more likely: that every religion is bogus except one, or that 100% of them are bogus?

1) The boook of mormon is a poorly written, heavily paliarized, 19th century work of fiction
4) the book of abraham is another work of fiction by a talented con man of the 19th century
5) Lost the spirit? Now there is a concept for you

Is BoM "literal" ? Meaning what ?

I think you are really asking if it is true.

“Literal” means it actually happened. Alternatives would be fictional or metaphorical. He’s asking if the events recounted in the BoM actually happened. This is a perfectly reasonable question, considering the claims of the LDS Church, and the contradicting evidence regarding the BoM.

Books are not true. They may be informative, contain correct information, be inspiring, or interesting, but they are not true, any more than school colors are true.

Calling a book true is religious shorthand for claiming the book was written, revealed or inspired by the speaker’s favorite deity, and contains God’s will, or LDS “correct principles”, or whatever.

OP was not asking whether the book was “true.” He wanted to know if the events actually happened. If they did happen, then the LDS claims would be easy to believe. If they did not happen, it requires serious pretzel logic to swallow the LDS truth claims.

is mormonism true ?

True north.
True Lies.
True Mormonism.

Which of these is not like the others?

The True North. Strong and Free.

Well, for some anyway.

Even actually their claims are outrageous. This is why I questioned the bible as much as the bom when I believed.

Deflect, deny, dismiss, discount, direct (direct you to pray.)

You will not get satisfying answers. You will either be confused by their answers or you will be able see through them.

Jeremy Runnells asked the same things you are asking which resulted in the CES letter and his excommunication. And a ton of resignations from the church.

If you follow any of the advisors above, this above all: Go slow. Learn. Read. Don't be afraid to think.

Understand from the get-go that your religious fears, shame, and guilt are imaginary and only work to promote the Church's bottom line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2022 09:41PM by auntsukey.

1. And 2. Yes, if it’s literal then Jesus killed millions of people and turned their cities into wastelands and mass graves like the photos we see of Mariupol, Ukraine today.

The answer is the Book of Mormon is not literally true. Those events didn’t happen and there’s not evidence to back up any claims that they did happen.

I too went through the journey you are now beginning. I was married in the Temple and had 3 kids at the time. I was a True Believer, as was my husband. It wasn’t easy. One of the big questions I had was how Heavenly Father could have impregnated Mary (mother of Jesus) when Mary was also his Spirit Daughter. Which would mean Heavenly Father committed Incest.

I had also visited Independence, Missouri and visited the Temple Lot Church and also purchased a Copy of the original Book of Commandments. The Book of Commandments was the original version of the Doctrine and Covenants. We had been taught in LDS Seminary that all the copies of The Book of Commandments had been destroyed, but I learned that wasn’t true. I read the original Book of Commandments and discovered the “revelations” Joseph Smith had received were originally different and that the Church had CHANGED the revelations before sending them for printing as The Doctrine and Covenants. Now how would anyone think it was okay to change God’s original Revelations if they really had come from God in the first place?

I hope I can somehow set your mind at ease, with a little advice.

As others have said, if you let the Bishop or Stake President or any of the counselors know you have questions about the truthfulness of any of the Standard Works, or about the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, they will indeed try to turn your spouse against you, under the guise of “protecting them” from you, as you will be labeled weak in testimony.

I’ve seen the church splitting up families much too often.
I learned the hard way the church isn’t true, even though I had wanted so badly for it to be true.

I had to stop believing it as the evidence just became tremendously overwhelming against any chance of it being true. I tried to keep going to church to keep my husband happy, but I just couldn't stomach raising my kids in a church that was brainwashing them.

Further advice that might save you a lot of heartache and lost money:
There is not a True Church. There isn’t even a True Religion.
When you think about it that makes sense, because if Life is Truly a Test, then God would not have given out the Answer Key to the test to anyone or any group. Always read books by former adherents of a religion before you go getting involved in that religion, otherwise you could get brainwashed by a different form of brainwashing. Most religions and cults engage in a form of brainwashing. Only the looser groups such as the Methodist Church and other protestant churches that don’t take the Bible literally are safe to go to. I’ve explored all the other world religions and they are as bad as or worse than Mormonism.

And Mormonism really did kill a lot of people – under Brigham Young’s reign anyone who tried to leave Utah (doubting and trying to get away from the Totalitarian State of Mormonism) was killed. Travelers were also killed, including the people of The Fancher Wagon Train, at Mountain Meadows on September 11, 1857 (the First 9/11). Brigham Young was not only a racist, but he was an expert murderer as well.

Good luck to you. Trust your instincts and your ability to reason through things. You’ll find Benjamin Franklin a good guide: read his Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin to his Son. He wrote these as letters to his son. This genius of a man realized early on that the Bible could not be literally true. Had he been around when the Book of Mormon came out he would have said the same about it.

Like