I just watched episodes 1 & 2 of the new series Under the Banner of Heaven on Hulu.
I've been out of the morg since 2008 and lived in Sandy and South SL in the 80's. Whoever put together the details of the series really did their homework down to the wall art and the prayers. Gave me some serious flashbacks!
I never read the book, but had found it recommended here when I first left the TC.
Have any of ya'll seen it yet? And if you've also read the book, hows does it measure up so far?

I watched 1 and 2 as well. Serious triggering going on and I've been out over 20 years. They got some things obviously wrong (e.g. BYU in SLC) but they are getting a lot of things right. It took me a minute to realize the actor playing Lafferty patriarch Ammon is the guy who played the Swede in Hell on Wheels. That guys is making a living playing Mormons. Creeped me out on multiple levels. So far it's worth the Hulu subscription.

One part I had to wonder about was when Brenda turns the tables of her lecherous BYU professor who locks her in the TV studio with him. Could that have really happened?

Yes! I quit watching halfway through the first episode because I thought I was bored, but if I’m honest there were some major triggers for me. I have PTSD from my mission over 40 years ago.
Thanks for helping me clarify what I was actually feeling.

I quit watching part way through the first episode because the writing, acting and directing were horrible.

I feel triggered when I see that stupid brick-work that has straight columns rather than being staggered like normal brick walls that are found in the rest of the country. In the series the sheriff's station has that look. That look is so Utah to me and it feels very mormon. It seems like the mormon brick masons took such pride in making perfectly straight columns of bricks but I find it very off-putting. It looks like the walls in the MTC and every other mormon church in the state...and that look creeps me out.

I hate that look. There was a house on the market up here in Coeur d' Alene that has that style of brick work and I refused to even look at it. I couldn't live in a house like that. NOPE.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2022 09:43PM by praydude.

I read the book back when I was still a TBM, when it first came out. It’s one of the first things that really made me start seriously questioning the truth claims of MORmONism. It was one question Krakauer asked that really struck me (paraphrasing) “If the Mormon church really is what it claims to be, the one true church of God on Earth, then why doesn’t it throw open the doors of its secret vault to reporters and let us see what they’re hiding and shout it from the rooftops?” Since it doesn’t do that, it made me question, what are they hiding? Searching for honest answers to that question made me realize that following the prescribed Mormon method, “search, ponder and pray” just led to me searching non-Mormon sources, which were far more forthcoming than the ‘approved Official sources”. And once I followed the evidence to its logical conclusion, it led me to the only real logical conclusion, Joseph’s Myth is a fraud.

I watched the first two episodes on Hulu. I thought my neverMo wife would hate it, but she finds it fascinating and we watched the first episode twice. You pick up a lot more subtleties the second time watching it.

The mini series is completely different from the book, so far, but I look forward to seeing the rest of the series.

I'm rewatching it with my ex-JW partner and there is just so much. We watched episode 3 with the scene in the SL temple and he was shocked when I told him I'd been in that room doing much of that ceremony (the post-1990 version) in that same get-up. I have green hair, piercings, and a lot of tattoos now so he had a hard time picturing it, lol.
I've never seen a show that has the lingo down so accurately with things like heavenly father, the adversary, calling the Piute detective a Lamanite, outer darkness, and even the prayers. It's like hearing your native language being spoken after not hearing it for years. I think we forget just how thoroughly saturated our whole lives were with all things Mormon once we've been out for a while that it's jolting to see it again, especially on a tv show.

Even as a nevermo, I think it would be very difficult for script writers to get every cultural and religious detail right. I remember watching "The Expanse" and catching a few details about Mormonism that didn't seem right to me.

The temple script is available so the writers can be as accurate as their lawyers for the studio allow.

I wouldn't be surprised if the text is under a copy write as Church IP.

On a side note, I'll never get tired of watching space pirates command a stolen ship with mo temple art and sealing room altar. lol.

I've never read the book, but watched the eipsodes last night. Its so good!
There are some weird things though, I don't think I ever heard people call each other Brother and Sister outside of church/church functions. And they kept calling it the Holy Spirit, when everyone knows its a ghost. Haha. There was also a strange scene where the detective secretly ate french fries behind a desk. Was that a no no in the 80s or something?

But Andrew Garfield is playing the fictional detective spectacularly. You can literally feel his tension. I can't wait for the rest of the series.

I was living in SLC in the '80s and they didn't call each other brother and sister there so much, but when we moved to Sandy, they did a lot more because everyone on your block was in your ward. Smaller towns in 80's Utah too.

My family referred to it as the holy spirit a lot too, but that may be a regional thing?
I was wondering about the fry thing too, but I think there was some debate amongst members sometime in the '80s or '90s about whether caffeinated soda and fast food shouldn't be considered against the WoW. I know my molly-mom had some kind of irrational hatred for McDonald's that she never fully explained.

That's why I'm loving the show, though, because they seemed to have picked up on obscure, local beliefs and trends of the time. Definitley getting triggered a bit. lol

I grew up far far from the Utah Mormon corridor (sometimes called the morridor) and I had lots of problems with caffeinated soft drinks. I was the one (as a youth) assigned to bring soda as refreshment for church get-togethers. I knew to bring root beer or 7up/Sprite. Unfortunately, Mom would buy the wrong one and I knew it would cause problems (the caffeine free versions of Cola were very contentious- They still put caffeine in them!!! OMG!

And my Mom was smart enough to know that Pepsi/Coke would start WW 3 with leaders and little pisshead Pharisees. However, orange soda caused me the most grief, especially the Sunkist brand with evil caffeine.

The one soda that would cause a bitch fest was Dr. Pepper and yet it was the first soda to disappear at a ward picnic.

I lived in the 80s in American Fork where it happened as a kid. Of course, I don't really know what "society" was like around me, since I was only 7 at the end of the decade. But I guess we did call each other brother and sister outside of church. However, I don't think I heard people call anyone that who wasn't in their own ward.

My mom always thought caffeine was against the WOW, so we didn't drink any sodas with it in. I think she still doesn't drink it. Her mom was a "can of coca-cola" every day kind of a person, and her dad drank coffee at times. Not sure where she got so strict about it.

It might be a generational thing. My grandparents always had Pepsi and playing cards at home. My parents were strictly anti-caffeine and anti-card games.

Haven't read the book yet, but I saw the first two episodes last night. They got the prayers, "artwork," and the dynamics of Mormon families quite accurate.

As for calling each other "brother" and "sister" outside of church, all I can say is, "Forget it Jake, it's Utah."

ookami, I highly recommend the book. A man of your intellect and interests would, I think, find it deeply useful.

I'll be sure to check it out. Been meaning to read more true crime books.

Yeah, this is way more than a "true crime" book.

It moves back and forth, chapter by chapter, between the Laffertys and the early church, showing how the doctrinal and behavioral traits of the latter influenced the modern murderers--and in fact many of today's Mormon fringe groups. It's a history book as well as a crime story and an indictment of Mormonism itself.

I reckon it ranks among the top 10 or 12 critiques of Mormonism. You'll find it engrossing and probably worth more than one read.

Okay, now I definitely need to read it!

I just wish they would go more into what led up to the stuff like the tarring and feathering of JS and the Hauns Mill massacre. Other than the reference to the MMM, they seem to be painting Mormons as the persecuted victims when we all know it was far more nuanced than that.

The book does go into such things: that's what makes it so compelling. It explains why the Lafferty episode was so natural to Mormonism.

I haven't seen the series but I don't think a TV series could do what Krakauer did.

Krakauer is a wonderful writer. The TV series got a thumbs up from a host on a local radio station.

What's the reference?

What’s the reference to what?

I think he's asking about the quote "Forget it Jake, it's Utah"

Yes, that's the question. My phone doesn't let me reply directly to the particular comment it seems.

It's based on a line from an old movie. Stars Jack Nicholson before he worked with Kubrick but after he worked with Corman.

I've heard Mormons in Utah call each other brother and sister outside of church functions. High Mormon population so they think they own the state.

So, it sounds like the first two episodes have dropped!

It looks like we don't get FX, so may not be able to see it. I cut cable a couple years ago, but my daughters have multiple streaming services, including Hulu. Apparently FX is different. ?? Are there alternative options to see it?

It was produced by FX Productions. It is streaming on Hulu.

Oh, thanks for the clarification.

I'll look for it on Hulu! :)

I watched both episodes last night. I had weird, troubling dreams. I had debated with myself for several days before deciding to watch it.

I read the book shortly after it came out, years after I'd left the church. On page 11 I saw the first mention of one of my family names--and it kept popping up. I did some research and learned that one of my cousins refused to accept the Manifesto. Eventually excommunicated. Then on page 226 I learned that my 1st cousin, 3x removed, was the man who carried the white flag when John D. Lee talked the Fancher group into giving up. I assume my cousin took part in the murders that followed. (He was not from the fundamentalist branch of the family.)

I know my Mom knew nothing about this, nor did my grandmother, who bragged to me once about being a member of this family.

I bought Bagley's book, Blood of the Prophets, when it came out. There I learned that my great-grandfather, financed by John Taylor and the Church, had researched, written, and lectured on the topics: Blood Atonement and Mountain Meadows Massacre, in 1884. I have old copies of each. G-Gpa lived in the UK until he emigrated in 1861, so he wasn't in the US in 1857. He relied on the church records of the time.

Bagley thoroughly critiqued his work. Maybe I'll get it out and reread it before the show gets to that episode.

I wonder who will play my cousins in the show?

I watched the first two episodes tonight.
It's pretty engaging.

Take a look at all the angry Mormon comments to the trailers for this series that are running on YouTube. Lots of Mormons trying to convince people not to watch the series. Appears they are really afraid people will discover that Church teachings really do inspire men to think they are acting with the authority of God when they murder someone.

Lol, they are really gonna shit their pants on episode 3! They show the anointing and Brenda confiding in her SiL about how weird she thought it was. Def gonna give some current members a big dose of the ol' cog-dis.
I know this series would have rattled me as a member for sure. Even now, watching that poor detective wrestle with what he is learning about the faith he was so certain he knew is breaking my heart. I know what that feels like all too well and that stage is not fun. My daughter was his daughter's age when I started questioning and when I suggested she wait to be baptized, people freaked out just like his wife does in episode 3. Poor guy.

I know ppl in Northern CA that seem very Lafferty-ish.

Law enforcement has been involved a time or twenty.

One non-LDS social worker was assigned “Mormons” as her ENTIRE caseload.

Oh wow, I forgot about that one; I read it in 2004. Was not aware there is a series, but will check it out. Thanks much!

Are more episodes scheduled to come out anytime soon ?

Every Thursday at midnight. I waited up to watch episode 3 early.
That's where they show a good bit of the pre-1990 temple ceremony in a very good replica of the SL temple. Def gonna ruffle some garments! lol!

I'm betting that some bishops and above may start counseling their members against viewing the show if they haven't already.

I've watched all 3 episodes so far. The only thing that triggered me a bit was the Temple scene. I've been out for so long that I didn't expect to be triggered by anything, so I was surprised to feel that dark pit in my stomach.

I just happened to run across this series on the homepage of one of the News outlets that I read online. It reminded me of this site. I haven't been here for awhile now.
It sounds from here ,that it's very accurate ,and they got a lot of feedback from actual ex members.
I laughed about the comments on caffeinated drinks. I remember at one of my young adult parties,someone made the punch with Mountain Dew. One of the members told them that it had caffeine, a lot of caffeine. (They thought it was like 7-up).
Most of them ended up drinking it anyway.I just had some cream soda, as I hate Mountain Dew.
I heard of other members who drank it, not knowing ( or pretending not knowing)that it had caffeine.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2022-05-05/under-the-banner-of-heaven-hulu-episode-3-explained

Yes, they had help from insiders.

"Brenda is wearing a white veil and dress with a green apron, as are the women surrounding her. The men sit on the other side of the room in similar white attire, green aprons and white bonnet-like hats. A male temple officiant warns the participants about the sanctity of the ritual they are about to enact, saying, “Under no condition, even at the peril of your life, will you ever divulge them,” then guides them through a series of symbolic gestures.

Brenda, following his lead, raises her left hand while making a cutting motion across her throat with her right hand. The scene is intercut with Sarah explaining the doctrine of blood atonement — the idea that “according to Prophets Joseph and Brigham, there are some sins beyond repentance” that can only be cleansed through bloodshed.

“It was important for storytelling that we included it so that we understand the hand signals that are being taught to these brides,” Black said."

"To re-create these ceremonies, Black and his creative team leaned on the expertise of historical consultants Lindsay Hansen Park and Troy Williams and gathered firsthand accounts from people who had taken part in them during the time period depicted in the series.

For the temple sequence, La Corte had to re-create the robes of the holy priesthood, the sacred clothing worn by members of the church during the endowment ceremony. For women, this includes a white dress and veil worn with a pleated robe and sash; for men, a white shirt, tie, sash and hat with gathered seam reminiscent of a shower cap. Both men and women wear a green apron embroidered with a fig leaf pattern, to represent Adam and Eve. The white symbolizes purity and equality. (“The simple vestments combine religious symbolism with echoes of antiquity reflected in ancient writings from the book of Exodus,” according to a church video.)

La Corte and his team spent months digging and, using the few images and videos available online, pieced together prototypes for the men’s and women’s robes. Then two former members of the church sent La Corte their robes, allowing him to check the accuracy of the samples he’d developed. “We had them about 95% correct,” he said. From there, it was a matter of cranking out 80 or so of the ensembles, from head to toe."

"These garments are designed and sold by the church and are thus difficult to procure if you are not a member. But through personal connections to a family with long-standing church ties, Williams and Park were able to track down a cedar trunk full of temple garments dating back many decades.

They provided La Corte with pictures and videos of the garments, which he used to create period-accurate underclothing for the cast."

Shoot! They can have mine! lol! They are currently languishing in a box of Halloween and ren fair costumes in my basement.

I also noticed that Pyre's wife was wearing the one-piece garments. The only other time I'd seen those is when my dad wore them in the 80s. They stopped making them by the time I got my endowment in '98. So yeah, they def did their homework.

"What are we teaching our children when we ask them to pray to a misogynist god?"

This panel discussion delves into the deep questions that the producer and the actors asked in making the series - about faith/reason,- about whether or not the church's teachings influence violence - about what the return to centuries-old dogmas and philosophies mean in light of recent Supreme Court leanings.

Highly recommend this for those who are watching the series with intensity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2022 10:22AM by auntsukey.

Just finished listening. Great interview! Thanks for posting!