https://youtu.be/iiknvBvVRG8

Even though neither the Prophet or his counselors chose to serve.

So, Follow the Prophet or follow the profit?

What’s a young Mormon man to do?

A mormon's gotta do what a mormon's gotta do...


This move suggests that church leaders are okay with becoming more hardcore regarding being 'in the world but not of the world.'

Which is not a big shock, given that trying to be 'modern' can't really work for mormonism.

MORmONs gonna MORmON.

I was just "wow".

My teenage daughter lives in Davis County and I just shared it with her. She says the stake president is a POS, too.

Just now she texted me that her mother--my ex--went to the SP this past year about being abused by her husband (who has a stake calling) and the SP said, "Why are you telling me this?" Husband later arrested for domestic violence.

Someone elsewhere stated that it's the Layton, Utah stake.

Well. I guess somebody is throwing his baker's hat in the ring for president and I don't mean of the U.S. That is G.A. material right there. You can spot the self serving lack of empathy that is critical to the position a mile a way.

Delin good a good job with his follow up. Life begins when you own yourself.

I don't see that statement as differing much from the things Spence Kimball said in the 1970s. . .

You are correct about ole Spencer K., he could preach guilt and shame like no other. As a teenage male in the middle of testosterone runs that could overpower any cold shower, he brought you to levels of shame and guilt that convinced you that hell and all its punishment was coming your way, and you were the lowest of the low.

Then you went on a mission and read the Miracle of Forgiveness which caused you to speculate that you may as well drive over a cliff and end it all. Because what was the point, since hell was without question the final destination.

But I digress, the Stake President issue is nothing new to me. I had one in my twenties that convicted me of serious sin because he was inspired, and I was just in denial about what I did, that of course I never did. Pulled my parents into it, and really created a mess.

Then there was the bishop who ordered me to bring in my pay stubs and be back in his office in 30 minutes so he could calculate my tithing and write him an immediate check. Because I had the edacity to tell him that contributions to the church were my business and not his.

So none of this type of elitism is new to me, it just took me longer than it should have to take back control of my life.

Yup. That is the church that I remember too well.

Love the tithing story.

And, it was SWK's book that made me see the light. I've read of so many who got sucked into the Miracle of Guilt that I have to wonder if I was the only one that it worked in reverse.

Yes the Miracle of Forgiveness did get me thinking in reverse. There was not a missionary during the time I went that was not breaking a few commandments or rules at any given time. I would see what was going on and thought to myself, why would a God give us this testosterone curse among other things and then expect us to put a pressure lid on it, nail it down tight, and then duct tape the crap out of it.

None of it made sense to me, and as the years progressed that sliver of logic and reason grew beyond that small seed into a immense healthy tree.

"Then there was the bishop who ordered me to bring in my pay stubs and be back in his office in 30 minutes so he could calculate my tithing and write him an immediate check."

Another reason I can't be Mormon. I would tell my bishop, "Look, I know you are doing bishop things but being bishop is not that special. To me, you're just a punk. Someone liked you enough to give you this job, imagining that their good feelings meant some kind of competence on your part."

Yeah. That's the way it was. Gool ole SWK. What a guy!

It worked on us then, but, will it work now?

What this looked like to me in some ways was when I attended a pyramid scheme party in the seventies in L.A. The pyramid scheme had been wildly successful up to this point, but I could hear in the voices of the party givers trying to get new dupes that the pyramid was waning and the desperation was showing no matter how hard they tried to glamorize the sell. You could see in their eyes they weren't going to get a windfall or even their investment back. Nobody bought in that night I don't think.

The S.P. in the video is good though. Very good. ( At first I typed M.P. by accident. Or was it an accident?)

Another Freudian slip, perhaps!

I think Kimball was one of the worst modern prophets: every young man should go on a mission, any couple of faithful young Mormons can make a happy marriage, the Miracle of Forgiveness. . . He played a big role in the regimentation of the church, the loss of any respect for the individual.

And so much of it was autobiographical. I believe he was a repressed homosexual and that that explains much of his magnum opus. It also goes some way towards explaining his own unhappy marriage and the suppression of individuality that I find so repulsive.

The Davis county guy may be a relatively coherent and polished speaker, yet his totalitarianism is but a shadow of Kimball's.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2022 07:26PM by Lot's Wife.

So what this guy is saying is that because you got baptized when you were eight, in order to please your parents, you now owe the church a mission.

. . . and a temple marriage, and unquestioning support for the church leadership, and whatever scraps of a soul you have left after all that.

The Catholic equivalent for that age is First Holy Communion. I didn't question it as a kid. Why would I? It's what Catholic kids of my age did. Plus, I got to wear a white dress, veil, tights, and shoes that made me look like a miniature bride. For a little girl, what wasn't to like?

If someone had told me years later that I owed the Catholic church anything because of that, I would have thought that they lost their minds.

Catholics are different from Mormons.
Mormon girls get the short end of the stick.
The most they can ever expect to achieve in the CULT is earning a medallion with a girl in a prairie dress that looks like one of Joseph Smith’s child brides.

There were such blowhards in the church when I was growing up in it. We had a stake president like that. We hated him. It brought us great joy when he later got caught having an affair with his Secretary.

Either you grew up in the Las Vegas Stake in the mid-1960s or there's more than one SP who boinked his secretary!

That can't possibly be, can it?

I think there is more boinking than the members can imagine. This guy got caught by his wife. It was in Idaho and not Nevada. A friend of mine had her husband cheating on her while he was serving in the bishopric.

The more I learn about the church the more of a charade the whole thing seems to be. I think there are more skeletons in the closet than we ever could imagine.

I think it's horrible advice to tell every worthy male to serve a mission. As a former AP and Zone Leader I can honestly say missionaries who go out on missions who don't want to be there are trouble. They are no asset to the mission and they will just make their companions who want to be there miserable. If the church leadership hasn't learned this simple reality then they are completely inept but the church just seems to run. It seems to trudge on regardless of all the stupid mistakes it makes. I know for some members they see this as a miracle. Our church is dumb but it's still here so it must be true.

Kudos to Dehlin - his video was only 4 minutes and not 4 hours. Praise Jesus! :)

His advice to young men contemplating or being pressured to go on a mission was spot on. Meanwhile, the guy from the stake presidency made my skin crawl.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kudos to Dehlin - his video was only 4 minutes and
> not 4 hours. Praise Jesus! :)
>
> His advice to young men contemplating or being
> pressured to go on a mission was spot on.
> Meanwhile, the guy from the stake presidency made
> my skin crawl.

I agree, in his case TikTok is a better platform for him than his podcast. I don’t think I’ve ever made it through one of his podcasts over the years, but now that he’s straight up atheist and willing to be more provocative he seems more interesting.

I mostly agree. Although I did make it through a five hour interview recently of the British former bishop (Priesthood Dispatches) that was very interesting (to me).

Much prefer Dehlin now he’s no longer sitting on middle ground.

This is why so many Mormon parents claim their children "chose" to get baptized. They even put that word in the invitation.

Oh please, Eight year olds don't choose anything except a flavor of birthday cake and what kind of bicycle they want, or, I guess nowadays that would be cell phone not bicycle.

Same parents who whispered their testimony in their toddlers ear to repeat into the microphone on the pulpit every GD month.
I really hated that.
Seemed like brainwashing even when I was TBM.

Oh, and let me register a complaint about yet another exaggerated, click-baity subject line from El Gato.

"Mormon Young Men no longer have a choice about serving a mission" Is not true, and misrepresents the actual content of the video. For starters, "no longer" is wrong. According to the leader, there was never a choice once you are baptized. Second, it is BS - yes there is a choice, even though LDS Herr Kommandant claimed otherwise.

"LDS Leader say young men have no choice about serving a mission" would be considerably more accurate, and without the exaggeration. Yes, the statement is still an exaggeration, but it is the one made by the church leader himself, without an extra dollop of exaggeration heaped on top by El Gato.

"Just the facts, ma'am."
-- Sgt. Joe Friday.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Who said let us force them to follow us and deny them their free agency?

Could it have been ..... SATAN?

+1

"What’s a young Mormon man to do?"

God's will, according to the SP. You don't have any choice but to do God's will. Who decides what God's will is? Why, the SP of course!

Yeah, what's with that? Why does God need official spokespeople? It thought that this is the creator and ruler of this world at a minimum (some people think the universe.) Can't he just send out an email blast? How about using the Emergency Warning System on the TV? Robo-calls? It's 2022. We are not exactly short of technology. Time to get with the program, God.

That’s the thing, the truth doesn’t require the world’s largest and longest standing army of recruiters going door to door selling it. It gets established and accepted as truth as inherited myths get completely debunked and discarded on the dustheap of debunked myths.
What keeps this particular brand of delusion self perpetuating itself, is the appeal of tribalism. I’ve heard many Mormons say,”Even if MORmONism wasn’t true, I wouldn’t quit because it’s good for me and my family.”

My response is,”Really? How on Earth is Singing the praises of a serial sexual predator, bigot, racist, good for you and your family?”

Mormon boys HAVEN'T HAD A CHOICE for generations!

There is NO free-agency for the youth - or "grown-ups" - in Mormonism! Period


schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even though neither the Prophet or his counselors chose to serve.
>

Same as Joseph Smith, Jr.: He wanted others to do the work so he could take credit.

You have a choice.
Take it! Or lose it-

> So, Follow the Prophet or follow the profit?
>

Can you not see? .....
There is no difference!
They are 1 in the same.

> What’s a young Mormon man to do?

Nothing, but bumble down that road, hoping for a right - or left - turn anywhere he can!

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even though neither the Prophet or his counselors chose to serve.

>Same as Joseph Smith, Jr.: He wanted others to do the work so he could take credit.

And for good measure, Joseph also took the missionaries' wives while they were away on proselytizing trips. Nice guy, that Joseph. Very spiritual, I'm sure. /s

Finding out that ‘anti-Mormon lie authored by ol’ Scratch himself’was actually true, and a Mormon scholar in good standing with the church published a whole book about it, ISL, blew my TBM Wife’s mind. Then to read in D&C 132, that Joseph spiritually/emotionally/verbally abused her, by threatening HER with destruction by God, to cover up for his sexual misconduct, just pissed her off!
It was like a light went off and suddenly she was done.
Done with MORmONism, done with religion, institutions of men, including marriage, including bullshit notions like ‘love’, fuck all that, let’s head to the liquor store, then Victoria's Secret! I always hated those F’ing Garments! And the Temple! Every time they made me bow my head and say, “Yes” I said,”Fuck You”.

It was fun at first.
But obviously not sustainable.

Fuck the fucking mormon church; fuck 'em all!!

This is an example and what I mean.

Being a "dogmaterian" pays great dividends!
Knowing you are right, you are Very Special.
Ye can be righteous, hubristic, "better than," control others while feeling good about you --
-- all while being completely blind to your actual state, believing yourself a kindly humble servant of Jesus, or a dedicated servant of the state.

All this for the mere price of your humanity.


Take a good look.
People like this build and run concentration camps.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://youtu.be/iiknvBvVRG8
>
> Even though neither the Prophet or his counselors
> chose to serve.

Some people criticize older General Aurhorities who urge young men to go on a mission that they themselves (the GAs) never served a mission. That criticism is not entirely justified. The idea that all eligible young men should serve is relatively recent.

When I was missionary age (1950s) very few young men from my Mormon community went. My family were all devout, but there was no talk about my going on a mission - neither from my parents or my bishop. It was just assumed that I was going to college, which precluded a mission. Very few of my extended family (most of whom were very devout Mormons) or my friends served, either. Boys my age got a job, went to college, joined the military, or even got married instead.

I think it wasn't until the '60s that the church started the pressure.

And this is a video of local pressure. I don't think it is church wide. Just tantalizing click bait featuring John Dehlin.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...video of local pressure...


The, uh, "national"-level propaganda certainly had more polish:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaDO-Qj5kpo

:)

And also because the number of missionaries was limited by agreement with Selective Service in the 1960s

This from 1970:

https://www.nytimes.com/1970/02/08/archives/suit-over-draft-in-utah-attacks-mormon-missionary-deferments.html

"Evidence developed in pre trial depositions has disclosed an arrangement between the Utah Selective Service and the Mormon Church to administer the missionary deferment pa o gram[SIC] jointly."

"The church and the Selective Service System here work hand in‐hand in deferring the missionaries. After the Vietnam War draft calls climbed in 1965, applications for missionary as ?? Mormons rose sharply, and the top leadership of the church circulated a letter to all local Mormon leaders.

This letter announced that the church had imposed a quota of one draft‐eligible missionary each six months from each Mormon ward. A ward is a congregation of about 600 people. There are about 1,300 Mormon wards in Utah.

If a certain ward did not have an eligible man to fill its quota, the vacancy could be transferred to another ward, the church letter said. Missionaries not eligible for the draft would not be counted against quotas.

The next day, Col. Evan P. Clay, then the state director of Selective Service sent to all draft boards in Utah a circular letter to which was attached a copy of the church letter. Colonel Clay told the draft boards how to follow the church plan in deferring missionaries.

Col. Richard V. Peay is now the director of Selective Service For Utah. A spokesman for him said that the system is still in effect and that he knew of no case where a deferment bad been refused a missionary backed by the church."

And also this in 2007:

"The deferments for Mormon missionaries became increasingly controversial in the late 1960s, especially in Utah, leading the Mormon Church and the government to limit the number of church missionaries who could put off their military service. That agreement called for each church ward, or church district, to designate one male every six months to be exempted from potential duty for the duration of his missionary work."

If somebody were to tell that I MUST donate two years of my life and thousands of dollars to a religion my answer would be
HASTA LA BYE BYE



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2022 12:31PM by thedesertrat1.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If somebody were to tell that I MUST donate two
> years of my life and thousands of dollars to a
> religion my answer would be
> HASTA LA BYE BYE

I’m embarrassed to admit I was a Mormon missionary, because I think it makes co-workers say,@And YOU DID THAT?” Incredulously, when I say, “Oh Yeah! The whole 9, the throat slitting ceremonies in the Mctemple, everything, I was in it until I was 40.
I’m pretty sure they think I must be an idiot for falling for something this clearly abusive. I mean, Does anything scream CULT more than promising to slit your throat if you ever reveal secret handshakes and suicide pacts?
The CULT has $100Billion slush fund and they gotta scrub toilets, because the CULT can’t afford to pay janitors?
I say,”Yeah, we’ll, when you grow up in it with family, friends, Drs and dentists and attorneys and engineers and teachers all doing it, you figure, it can’t be THAT weird, all these good people I know and love are doing it!
And THAT is exactly how the delusion keeps getting perpetuated.
Nobody wants to be the kid yelling,”The Emperor Has no clothes!”
At least I didn’t until I found out the Emperor was lying through his GD teeth to cover up abuse I knew about, then blaming the victim and protecting the perpetrator, because they didn’t want to spoil ‘The Good Name of the Church’
Until I die I will do everything I can to spoil the name of the abusive CULT, of Joseph’s Myth of Doomsday Sex predators.

Yeah I’m a lot of fun at parties!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2022 10:48PM by schrodingerscat.

It's easy enough for you or for me to say something along those lines. It's a little harder for an eighteen-year-old with no great way of supporting himself should his parents kick him to the curb for refusing to go.

scmd1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's easy enough for you or for me to say
> something along those lines. It's a little harder
> for an eighteen-year-old with no great way of
> supporting himself should his parents kick him to
> the curb for refusing to go.


Totally agree.

It's like the wish to go back and relive your youth.

It would be great if you could keep your knowledge,experience and maturity and be a twenty year old again.

tumwater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be great if you could keep your
> knowledge,experience and maturity and be a twenty
> year old again.

Serious question: do you think we make better decisions that way or just different errors?