https://youtu.be/5-iNtzo6icI

Worth watching. Was there a coupe in Nauvoo? Forensic evidence and motives might lead to this being the case. This would explain Emma’s distrust of Brigham Young and wanting no part of the church after the Carthage murders.

The main difference between Joseph Smith and Brigham Young is Brigham was a killer and a thug. Joseph was more of a charismatic con man but Brigham was more of a mobster.

In lookig over the Carthage jail scenario you migh pause to wonder about that issue. It is not uncommon for gang leaders to be rubbed out by up and comming aspirantds.
I never considered this before but it bears investigating



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2022 01:25PM by thedesertrat1.

There have been good forensic observations of the Carthage jail shootings that the wounds caused were from smaller pistol balls shot from inside the room. The accounts of both John Taylor and Willard Richards don’t match the rounds used or the shot angles.

Add in Samuel Smith dying shortly after the Carthage murders from stomach problems and the Smith families distrust of some Quorum of the Twelve members and the deaths of the three Smiths who were in line to be prophets looks very suspicious.

The Quorum of the Twelve look very suspicious because John Taylor and Willard Richards both apostles and in the room with Joseph and Hyrum. The mob didn’t come to shoot the Smith’s but to capture them and hang them. When they saw the Smith’s were armed they scattered down the stairs.

But nobody was hit with a .69 caliber musket ball which were the militia rifles some of the mob were armed with. Those would have caused way more damage than 30 caliber or even 50 pistol balls.

Both Hyrum and John Taylor were shot with small pistol rounds and we know there were at least two pistols in the room. John Taylor collected guns. The pepper box Joseph used was once owned by John Taylor. John Taylor might have had a pistol.

It would be rare that the mob would have pistols. They would have their militia rifles or hunting rifles. A Illinois farmer would have little use for a pistol. They were expensive and useless for hunting game. Only gamblers, prostitutes or people worried about their safety because they had enemies carried pistols. They were an expensive luxury most people couldn’t afford and had no practical use for.

Anyways the mob were after Joseph and Hyrum. It very well could be John Taylor and Willard Richards were in on it helped kill both Smith’s. John Taylor has wounds from a small pistol like the one Joseph Smith had. Was there a pepper box shootout between Joseph Smith and John Taylor? Joseph fired three shots at the mob in the stairway wounding three of them and he had three shots left. John Taylor carried one ball that couldn’t be removed the rest of his life. That ball is probably buried with his remains. The pistol Joseph used is in the church museum. If that ball matches the gun then Joseph very well could have shot John Taylor in a gun fight.

Thanks for the post. Looks interesting.

Ha! I was serving my mission in NYC when John Gotti whacked Paul Castellao in front of Spark’s Steakhouse. It was right before Christmas and huge news.

Brigham Young wasn’t well liked but he commanded respect. He was a mobster in a different kind of game. Joseph Smith had all kinds of sharks around him and it was pretty apparent some wanted him gone and so did the surrounding community. What better time to pull a coupe?

Shhh - anti- Danites did it

I doubt the "12" were behind the assassination of Joseph and Hyrum.

The current rites of succession were not established st the time.

Brigham was hundreds of miles away.

As for small shot wounds, a common musket load was buck and ball. Multiple smaller buckshot loaded under the standard single ball round.

Now....I believe some of those in power poisoned Samuel who was not onboard with plural marriage.

A more interesting, often overlooked candidate for removing Sam Smith was Uncle John Smith. Joseph Smith Sr younger brother and holder of many prominent church positions. Also a strong supporter of plural marriage.

Brigham Young liked John D. Lee so much that he had him sealed to him as an adopted son, before making the trek west to the Utah Territory.

After the MMM, the Feds came to Utah Territory to have a trial and have someone held accountable for MMM. That someone turned out to be John D. Lee, BY's "beloved son", who died by firing squad after he was found guilty.

BY didn't hesitate to throw Lee under the bus so that he could save his own neck and to save the reputation of The Church.

If he treated Lee like that, more than likely he felt the same way about Joseph Smith, whom he claimed to love. After all, it's difficult, if not somewhat impossible, for a leopard to change his spots.

Good thoughts. If Brigham thought Joe would bring down the church he could have commanded one of Joe's friends to shoot him if the opportunity arose to save the church from a war with Illinois.

> John D. Lee, BY's "beloved son",
> who died by firing squad after
> he was found guilty.

I don't recall where I heard this theory, and I don't want to research it and find out that it couldn't possibly have occurred, so I'll just offer it up and wander away...

According to this theory, the execution of John D. Lee, by firing squad, using muskets, there at Mountain Meadows, was set up so that when he was struck by paper wads, no bullets, he pitched himself into the casket that was beside him, the casket was then 'sealed' and taken off for burial, but obviously bags of sand were substituted for his body, and he high-tailed it for Mexico, where he lived a number of years with a couple of his favorite wives.

Also Joseph Smith’s family had a high distrust of Brigham Young. I think why Brigham didn’t have the apostate problems Joseph Smith had was Brigham was more ruthless. Brigham was more of a mobster than Joseph was. Joseph was a charismatic con artist. If you went against Brigham Young you put yourself in danger.

Fascinating that's amazing. Thank you for posting.

You could skip the first hour if you don't care about all of the inconsistencies of the Taylor and Richards testimonies. It's a pretty good, if a little slow, video. It should have more views.

The hypothesis is that the mob did not attack. They may have shot Joseph for trying to escape after he was pushed dead out the window, gone in to investigate, and shot a very dead Hyrum to ensure an end to his suffering.

It was an inside job. Joseph emptied the pepperbox on his own friends after they killed his brother and then shot him. So it really was a pistol battle, but against live-in bush whackers.

John Taylor was rewarded by being the third President of the Church. Brigham Young had demonstrated such skullduggery against "gentiles", so why not his own people?

I used to mess around with black powder firearms. I had two Colt Navy pistols in .36 caliber. I shot them a lot and never had one misfire. A pepper box is a revolver with six separate smooth bore barrels. They were reliable. People carried them for protection up past the civil war. Having three misfires would be very rare. Joseph Smith was leader of a militia. He understood firearms. I’m sure he checked to make sure all the caps were on the gun.

Also a .69 caliber musket would have blown Hyrum’s head away and if you caught a ball in your limbs it would usually take that limb off. That soft lead flattens out and with all the mass in it, a lot of damage is done. Pistols especially the smaller ones like a pepper box don’t have the velocity or mass to do the same kind of damage.

This fails Occam's Razor IMHO. First of all, nobody over the next half century spilled the beans on what happened at Carthage? People are not very good at keeping secrets. Well, except NASA, whose 400,000 employees have kept the secret about the faked moon landing. ;)

Second, it was an inside job, but an armed mob showed up at an opportune time to to provide a cover story? Boy, that's convenient. It's like how the CIA blew up the WTC with explosives in the elevator shafts, and they cleverly got a bunch of Arab terrorists to hijack two jets and fly them into the buildings an hour before the CIA set off their explosives.

First it could have been 3 people in on it only who kept their mouths shut and second these three could have been looking for an opportunity to pin Smith removal on others. Not far fetched in my option.

Oh, and about that razor... The book of Mormon has no one spilling the beans. Just saying.

All three people who knew the truth had a vested interest in taking it to their grave, just like the modern Q15.

That wasn't too hard for Briggy after having bad reaction to "green peaches". Maybe John Taylor was getting antsy. Old habits die hard.

Based on the many schisms and delay in Brigham Young taking on the role in an accepted fashion, I don't think they had a plan in removing Joseph and assuming control. Brigham didn't even have the majority follow him.

Mormons have a built-in excuse for coups in their scriptures. It is better for one man to die than a nation dwindle in unbelief. We'll just off this guy cuz God.

They might not have had a plan beyond placating their enemies, who by that time were ready to sack Nauvoo.

But how is Brigham having an alibi relevant? He wasn't pulling the trigger.

Agreed, DB.

The notion that a man hundreds of miles away could organize a mob of anti-Mormons to cooperate with a few Mormon leaders whom they knew and hated is preposterous.

This is Nixon killed JFK fatuity.

Agree. This whole discussion has about as much serious merit as the theories on who really b shot JFK.

This ranks right up there with the theory that JS and the early saints used hallucinogenics to have their visions.

The whole thing could have started from Joseph eating some mushrooms he found in the woods. Maybe Mormonism was onto taking a trip way before the current Ayahuasca fad.

Or, Rubicon, JS never had any visions and just made it all up.

Wait and see can also be a plan. It isn't unlikely that it was friendly fire that killed the clan leaders.

I sometimes wonder if BY liked whiskey & tobacco as much as he loved women/having sex...
Did BY have poly before he moved to Ew-tah?

He moved my ancestor Zina Jacobs into his harem before leaving.

Quinn's book called origins of power talks all about this, and what actually probably happened, after Joseph's death the willard Richard's (who by the way was the apostle in charge of the Danites) and they held actual weekly meetings discussing who they were going to cut between the ears. Anyway Richard's was a cousin of Brighams and naturally wanted Brigham to have the power, and remember Brigham placed him above the other apostles when they organized the 1st presidency 3 years later. He became the 2nd counsillor after Heber c Kimball, why did he do that? ...
I think I know why...

I heard from an actual witness that BY assassinated JS because the latter went woke and was giving the priesthood to black people and women.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2022 06:00PM by Lot's Wife.

I didn't see you blink or break eye contact, so you're obviously telling me the truth!

Would I lie to you, Jesus?

Like a fine oriental shag rug...

Shag rug. . .

Isn't that what you call your toupee?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2022 10:04PM by Lot's Wife.

Brigham Young seems to have honed his communication and organizational skills after being in the Utah Territory for a few years.

He lived in Salt Lake City, hundreds of miles away from Cedar City, where in dwelt President Isaac Haight.

Prez Haight, John D Lee, and Briggy were in communication with each other.

After MMM, Young paid a little visit to the mass grave of the Fancher-Baker party. He said: “Vengence is mine, saith the Lord, and I have gotten a little.” My opinion is that he was referring to himself with the word “I”.

The funny thing here is if he was a party to Smith's murder he looked upon the dead claiming to a murder he orchestrated. And they were murdered in a fashion like Smith's if that is how he went - by people disguising themselves to murder.

Brigham wielded a lot of power and the reason why is he had a network of extremely loyal followers.

Secret combinations didn't bring God's church down but it is the rock upon which it was built for us today.

Some conspiracies have some truth in them. I can tell you neither John Taylor's watch or Hyram's face were hit by a .69 caliber musket. The video does a good job of showing how flawed those assumptions are.

So the truth would be none of the accounts tell the whole story. Is this video's account true? Nobody knows but it makes people think and it's entertaining.

  

The amount of audacity and deceptions in Mormon History is legion and some have seen The First Vision as Joe's own alien abduction.

The truth is there is not much one can discern from a historical testimony tinged with belief in Mormonism. Not even the Nauvoo Expositor can be trusted as the truth.

We all try to makes sense of Mormon History from our own perspectives. Calling people akin to conspiracy crazy in this regard is not only bad form but insulting.

Most information is biased. It always has been. The old saying is the truth usually lays in the middle is a pretty good way of describing it.

When I was a kid growing up in the church I got the correlated story of Joseph Smith. I never heard about the rock in the hat. I was told Joseph used set of lenses held by a bow attached to a Brest plate. Now the church came out and showed us a rock. So this shit has always changed and will continue to do so.