I started the original thread, so I guess I'll continue it. If people are tired of it let me know and I'll shut up.

Lot's wife, you ended the other thread with a very kind comment. Thank you.

Since leaving the church I think of all missionary work as BS and shame worthy. It's just that this is my BS, and it's extreme BS to boot, and I'm more than willing to call it so.

If I was still active, and thought of missionary work as a "wonderful work," I think I'd be very ashamed of this whole mess, and maybe I'd deny it too. Though to be able to deny it despite all of the evidence and witnesses takes a lot of... something.

Groberg's statements in the Numano piece floored me, and proved that he was the master of... something.

I know that a high number of missionaries leave the church after their missions. I have to wonder if the number was even higher for the Groberg-era missionaries.

I don't have any statistics, summer, but I'm pretty sure you would be right.

I was one of those missionaries who left the church due to Elder Groberg's techniques. Served in the Nagoya Japan mission from 1979 to 1981.
As a ZL, we were sent up to Tokyo South to learn their techniques for two weeks. This was the seminal event in my life where I learned the church was not true.
In my view Elder Groberg and Elder Kikuchi did enormous damage to the church in Japan.
If anyone is interested I could tell my story

Absolutely! Please do share your story.

OK you asked for it, here is my story. Just to be clear, I was not a missionary in Tokyo South, I was a missionary in Nagoya Japan 1979-1981 during the Groberg era.

In my case, Pres Sagara (Nagoya mission) sent several ZLs up to Tokyo South to learn how Tokyo South was getting such phenomenal baptism rates. I was assigned to 2 districts and told to just follow the Elders and observe. I was told that these districts were among the highest performing districts in the mission.

I observed the elders in each district for one week. Elders in both districts were doing the exact same thing. Within hours it became perfectly clear what the elders were doing - they would rent an apartment as close as possible to the train / subway station. In Japan in the 1980s, in the late afternoon, the trains, subways, and streets were flooded with high school and college students coming home with a few extra unsupervised hours to burn.

The Elder's apartment was transformed into a cool after school / party hang out spot / full of high school and college students. As the trains arrived the Elders along with some Japanese members would intercept the stream of kids and invite them over for pizza and to hang out with the cool Americans and learn about Jesus.

The Elders apartment was party central where some really good looking kids were.

The discussions were condensed down into several short (about 5 min, don't remember exactly?) presentations that the kids were told they need to listen to do join the club. Many times kids would get the complete set of discussions within the same day and then be challenged to be baptized.

The ZLs were usually in or near the apartment do a quick interview and the kids were baptized in the ofuro (make shift font) on the balcony of the missionaries apartment. Sometimes the baptisms occurred on the same day as the first contact.

There was usually ZERO time for the converts to comprehend what just happened, what baptism meant, what the gospel was, who was Jesus, etc.. Most kids did not even seem to know they had joined a church. This technique seemed to relied on peer pressure, quick discussions with no time to think, Japanese reluctance to say no, and American idolism.

The Tokyo South Elders seemed to believe due to pressure from Pres Groberg that the program was inspired from God. I could tell from the Tokyo South elders that they were under intense pressure to keep the numbers up. The elders in the districts I stayed at were getting 100s of baptisms a month.

After two weeks, we returned to Nagoya and reported back to Pres Sagara what we had learned. He told all the ZLs, including me, to implement the same techniques in our respective zones in the Nagoya mission. Later I learned this was due to intense pressure from Elder Kikuchi. Several elders, including myself refused since we felt there was no true conversion happening, no spirit anywhere in the process, it was not missionary work.

Pres Sagara became livid. I still remember his bright red face as he screamed at us for being evil, not having the spirit, and we would be accountable to God for all the people we did not baptize.

I personally was demoted and moved to a back water area for the remainder of my mission.

Pres Kimball visited Japan, not sure when, and there was a conference with just the missionaries. I think I remember a statement Pres Kimball said at the conference it was something along the lines of - The Lord has seen the work of the Elders in the Tokyo South Mission and is well pleased. I want all the other missions to follow their example.

Knowing what I knew, this caused major cogitative dissonance and emotional stress.

In my view, this program was the sick brain child of both Elder Groberg and Elder Kikuchi (Q70). Elder Groberg and Kikuchi did enormous damage to the church in Japan.

Years later I heard about sex scandals, and how the church was a laughing stock in the Japanese press and with comedians. The net result was near ZERO retention rates, the growth was only on paper. Wards and branches, including Nagoya, had 1000s of people on the roles, but no one knew who they were.

After I returned home, I couldn't even tell my family or friends about this experience. I then slowly drifted away from the church, there was no way I could reconcile what had happened was sanctioned by God.

Thanks for the therapy session, it feels good to tell this story after all these years.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2022 07:53PM by asherah.

Thank you for this, asherah. I would like to see as many accounts of that unfortunate period as possible so that we collectively do not forget.

Your story raises several issues/questions that I'd like to address.

First, what you say about going to Tokyo to observe the missionaries' proselytizing techniques comports with what others have told me. The MP in Hokkaido, for one, sent several of his APs and ZLs to see the Groberg system. Some of the details you report differ, but that would be because the various delegations from other missions were sent to different places in TSM at different times. The focus on high-school and college-aged boys/men, the emotional manipulation, the speed of the whole process, are essentially identical across all accounts.

A couple of additional points. I was told each of the six interviews was reduced to 10 minutes or a bit less so the whole set could be delivered in an hour on a park bench or in a subway car. Also, I have seen full sets of discussion graphics shrunk down to a 4X6 inch set of about 10 or 12 photos in transparent sleeves from a copy shop--again so the set could be carried easily and the lessons taught fast and unobtrusively.

Second, I think we can nail down some more details of Kimball's visit. He traveled to Tokyo to dedicate the Japan Temple, which he did on October 27th 1980. Hosanna shout, waving hankies, the whole nine cubits. I have been told that all the missionaries in Japan were there for the event and that Kimball spoke approvingly of the efforts of the missionaries (general to all of Japan) and wanted them to continue working hard. But he also said that it would not be long before there would be a Japanese apostle and, I'm told, glanced towards Elder Kikuchi on the stand. That should clarify Kikuchi's, and by extension Groberg's, motivations.

Third, "sex scandals" may be too strong a phrase. What I heard from multiple sources was that the devaluation of traditional moral norms and integrity along with the incredible pressure left a lot of missionaries seeking avenues of relaxation from spanning the range from beer to marijuana, from Pachinko to girlfriends, etc. We all know that sex occurs in missions everywhere: what happened in TSM and some other places was perhaps more of it, increasingly less effort to hide it, and most saliently, its tolerance by mission leaders who preferred to look the other way rather than punish their most productive missionaries. Groberg exhibited that see-no-evil attitude in spades, which is why Inoue had to excommunicate and send home a number of missionaries. I would add that the intentional ignorance also extended to the missionary committee in SLC and even to the prophet.

Fourth, thank you for your comments on your isolation after returning home. I hear that a LOT. It was a time when Mormons thought the work was accelerating rapidly, the church was truly ascendant, and there was no such thing as a "bad mission." So the RMs from Japan could not share what they'd seen and done with their families, with their friends, with anyone. Those rare missionaries who spoke up quickly became pariahs, so most just shut up and eventually wandered away from the church.

But the emotional costs paid by hundreds, perhaps thousands, of missionaries were immense. I know of one missionary who was institutionalized at the Idaho State Mental hospital (or whatever it was called) and of many who needed psychotherapy for depression, PTSD, anxiety, etc. In about 2000 I met a former professor of Japanese literature at BYU who emotionally said that what happened to those RMs was "tragic" and described the development of a large cadre of shrinks in the Provo-Orem area who specialized in RMs from Tokyo South and other Japanese missions.

Again, thank you for sharing your experiences. I'm confident that RMs and their families are still dealing with the harm Groberg and Kikuchi caused, and it's surely helpful for many to know they were, and are, not alone.

Thank you for your account, asherah. It's very interesting to hear from someone who was sent to the TSM to observe, and subsequently expected to implement those methods. This is the first time that I've heard the missionary apartments described as a social gathering spot.

I haven't heard that particular detail before either, but it makes sense. There were dozens of such apartments, the goal was to ingratiate young Japanese men, and the approach asherah outlines achieves those goals.

It strikes me as a variation on the usual themes, the sort of detail that makes a general account more, rather than less, credible. It's also the sort of innovation that would work in some parts of Tokyo but not in others.

I can only report on what I observed in the 2 districts I was assigned too. I'm not sure if the elder's apartment being a social gathering spot was universally done or if I had just happened to be assigned to some rogue elders. However, it appears that even if they were rogue as long as they had good numbers it didn't matter how they did it.
I also remember many of the students staying in the missionary apartment for many hours almost every day doing homework, socializing, eating, etc..

Edited to add: these 2 districts were in major urban busy areas of downtown Tokyo (Tokyo has several).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2022 08:44PM by asherah.

asherah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> . . . it
> appears that even if they were rogue as long as
> they had good numbers it didn't matter how they
> did it.

That's the key. I fully believe your account.

Oh, yes. I didn't mean to imply that I was questioning your account in any way. It makes sense that the missionaries would want to make their apartment an attractive gathering spot for the young people that they were recruiting.

It adds a very interesting detail to what is already known about the TSM under Groberg.

If I may.

I personally cannot fathom how I would have dealt with what happened in the Tokyo South Mission. But during my time state side, the results of your mission were often used to guilt us in other missions. We always were told how we lacked the spirit and then numbers from the Tokyo or South American Missions were brought up.

Our Second Mission president was a nightmare, it was all about the numbers. If you did not produce numbers, then you were labeled lazy, demoted, and sent another companion who was told to spark a fire under you.

I remember coming into an area where they had what we called a "Professional Contact", she was bed ridden, a very nice lady, but was way into the Jesus mantra. So one day while we were talking to her, she was going on and on about Jesus. And then my companion challenged her to baptism, which resulted in the Zone Leaders coming in to do a "Worthiness Interview". They then marched out announcing she was ready for baptism.

I just sat there agast, she did not even know who Joseph Smith was, and when I asked her what she believed most about Mormonism she could not answer, because she had no idea about the doctrine. She then again went into the Jesus topic. Fortunately she stalled the baptism over and over again, and when I left she was still a firm believer in Jesus and that was it.

So I have a slight idea of how that time period must have been, my experiences left me in intense conflict, since we were always lying about something to keep the mission president happy, and trying to come up with ways to get someone baptized.

I am very sorry for the experience of the Elders in the Tokyo South, it must have been brutal. I should also mention that I did meet Kikuci (I hope I even slightly spelled that right), in the Salt Lake mission home just before I shipped out.

"I started the original thread, so I guess I'll continue it. If people are tired of it let me know and I'll shut up."

I enjoy reading this thread! Groberg was a monster. It's amazing what missionaries put up with to show their loyalty to "the church."

Your mission experience was so different from mine, which was in a low baptizing European mission. After several months of knocking on doors without results and then hearing in mission conference that "the field is white, already for harvest," not many of us believed it. I think the mission president knew that putting too much pressure on us to do the impossible wasn't a good idea. He had other methods of causing mental torture. Thank God Groberg wasn't my mission president. I can't imagine what methods he would have used in my mission to increase numbers of baptisms.

I don't know if it already exists, but there should be an organization that specifically helps traumatized returned missionaries. I think Groberg's missionaries would have benefited from therapy. I think all returned missionaries would benefit from therapy.

My first month was the only time I ever rode a bike and knocked on doors. Invited into several homes to sit under the kotatsu and feast on azuki beans and mochi while my companion gave the first discussion. Friendly, accommodating, interested Japanese families listening to the foreigners preach Christianity to them.

After that it was 2 fanatic foreigners accosting naive students and busy salarymen in front of the train station all day long. Worse than the most aggressive panhandlers I'd ever seen anywhere in the US before or since.

One companion would step in front of people and not let them by. People would make eye contact or see us and go to the other side of the street to avoid us. Back then 2 white kids stood out like a sore thumb. Japan has more foreigners now.

I can easily see how the comedians would turn our antics on the street into a funny sketches. Everyone that went thru a train station was very aware of the over aggressive, annoying Americans and that they were pushing religion.

I remember the missionaries coming in from other missions to learn "our ways". Luckily I wasn't ever one of their trainers!
I was never in an apartment that was party central for HS or college kids, but I could see it happening.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2022 06:28PM by mankosuki.

mankosuki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One companion would step in front of people and
> not let them by.

Yep. A truly committed missionary, or one committed to his own mission career, or one who liked to intimidate others, would do that. I've heard from two people that there was a videotape of TSM missionaries running from person to person on a city street that was shown to those APs and ZLs in other missions who were not chosen for the study trips to Tokyo. I don't know if that was used just in their mission or if it was shown across Japan. Nor do I know if it was produced by TSM or if some of the visiting missionaries shot the video.


-------------------
> People would make eye contact or
> see us and go to the other side of the street to
> avoid us.

A bunch of missionaries have told me that: the dynamic was destructive. Missionaries were told that they had to talk to people to please God, Japanese were annoyed and tried to avoid the missionaries, and the missionaries felt that God and they were being rejected by evil Japanese and accordingly grew progressively more frustrated and angry.

Missionaries who were in underpopulated cities and towns in Tokyo and elsewhere suffered even more from this, for they encountered hostile Japanese many times a day. Is it any wonder that some of them grew depressed and acted out? Is it any wonder that the Japanese learned to avoid Mormons like the plague?

You read on a lot of mission blogs/sites about planting seeds. Treating people nicely and leaving a favorable impression.

Not so in the Tokyo South Mission. We were told the field was ripe for harvest and we had to thrust in our sickle. "You aren't here to plant seeds elder. Your here to baptize!" Those that didn't were very much looked down on.

mankosuki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You read on a lot of mission blogs/sites about
> planting seeds. Treating people nicely and leaving
> a favorable impression.
>
> Not so in the Tokyo South Mission. We were told
> the field was ripe for harvest and we had to
> thrust in our sickle. "You aren't here to plant
> seeds elder. Your here to baptize!" Those that
> didn't were very much looked down on.

That was the last 6 months of my stateside mission. My MP was indeed familiar with Groberg methods.

Sure wish that I would have had the balls to secretly record all the fear and intimidation he levied against low performing zones in regards of convert baptisms. The screaming from him was intense and lasted nearly an hour of bitchin' and berating about our failure to meet monthly goals.

I clearly remember him yelling "I'm tired of hearing about plabting seeds. Bull shit! Get your heads out of your assess and give me baptisms!"

Truly an awful experience that no volunteer missionary should have endured.

It reminds me of how aggressive the Hare Krishnas used to be in travel hubs long ago. That became a joke as well.

When I got home, I just wanted to date, to sing and dance, and to have sex, not necessarily in that order...

But of course, I served before The Change:  when D-day became P-day.

I have yet to discover when this switch was flipped, why, and by whom.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2022 06:59PM by elderolddog.

I believe it was the apartments in or near Tokyo proper that became party centers for young people. I spent most of my time in Kanagawa, (never made it to Shizuoka) and though there was a fair amount of socializing on Sundays, and sometimes students would use the apartment to do homework, or just hang out while they waited for their train home, it definitely wasn’t party central.

Those elders whose apartments were party places were definitely NOT rogue. They were MAs, and held up as examples because of their high numbers of baptisms.

Thank you for that perspective asherah. You may not have been in the mission, but in your two weeks you saw and experienced things that I only heard about second hand. My sources at the time were absolutely believable, and I never doubted them, but it’s always nice to have additional confirmation.

Feels good to talk about it doesn't it asherah? Nagoya is a nice place BTW. Thanks for giving your perspective.

Your story fits right in with the overall picture. Provide a place that the investigator feels warm and welcome. Keep the new members close together. (the reason we held church in our apartments) Have them bring their friends. Referrals.

Wouldn't surprise me if pizza or other perks were provided. This was before all missionaries paid the same amount. Some of the elders from more wealthy homes could spend as much as they wanted. One of Grobergs minions bragged at conferences of how much he spent each month on lunches and such. Sure felt bad for his comps. It wouldn't shock me to hear that he "bought" a few investigators off with dinners and good times at the apartment.

Since you reminded me of Nagoya. My 2nd comp was an old Nagoya elder. He carried around a walking stick from Mt Fuji. Groberg made hiking Fujisan off limits. Now that upset me. Especially when I spent a majority of my time close by there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2022 08:23AM by mankosuki.

I often hear the question, "Did Groberg really not know what was going on, or did he know, and just looked the other way?" Of course a third option is that it was all done with his express approval.

Here's a direct statement from Groberg, as quoted in Numano's paper that Lot's Wife linked to in the original thread:


“During the whole period of presiding over the mission I do not remember of ever doing anything contrary to the guidelines.” As for reports of extreme cases or deviations from the norm, he commented: “Although many false rumors of inappropriate activities arose, they were so farfetched and almost silly to me, [that they had] no substance in reality for our mission.”


I saw myself, and heard many reports of "inappropriate activities" that were "contrary to the guidelines," some of the most egregious involving some of Groberg's most loyal and trusted minions, including MAs. (MA=Mission Assistant. Like an AP, only different.) If the reports were true, it's hard to believe he didn't see anything at all, though I suppose it's possible.

I want to share a direct experience I had with Groberg that showed me his true colors. I talked about it in the other thread, so I apologize, but to me it shows he knew exactly what was going on - if not everything, more than enough. The following is botchan quoting botchan.


"I remember one interview I conducted as a district leader: The "golden" college-aged young man had no intentions of giving up his cigarettes or alcohol, nor did he know he was expected to. He laughed when I asked about the law of chastity. He didn't have a clue who Joseph Smith or SWK were, and wasn't real big on the whole God thing. When I asked him why he had agreed to be baptized, he said it was because the missionaries really seemed to want him to, and since they were teaching him English for free (he had met them five days earlier) he thought it was the least he could do.

"When I suggested we postpone the baptism one week so that he could have a couple more lessons, he readily agreed, and when I went to get the missionaries who had "taught" him, he slipped out a side door, never to be seen again.

"The next day I received a call from Groberg who let me have it with both barrels for costing the mission a baptism. When I related the interview, he said that it didn't matter - I had robbed the young man of an opportunity to receive the gift of the holy ghost, and that even if he never came back, he would have been better off being baptized."


In my mind, if approving that young man for baptism wasn't "inappropriate activities" that were "contrary to the guidelines," then not much was.

It is my opinion that he knew about everything, and as long as it resulted in baptism, it was okay by him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2022 12:07PM by botchan.

Oh, he knew. Not everything, but a lot and maybe most.

Many of his missionaries split up and proselytized separately so they could go through apartment buildings more quickly. They met people separately; they taught them separately. And they had to report their numbers daily. So how exactly did one account for a companionship teaching 15-20 lessons in 10 hours, which happened sometimes. How could Groberg not understand the implications of the information that his highly intrusive, and abusive, daily reporting system revealed? More importantly, how could he close his eyes to the implications of having lonely 20-year-old kids alone in the homes of non-Mormon Japanese for hours a day?

Likewise, we know that when his best baptizers got caught drinking or fooling around, he punished them by demoting them for a month only then to elevate them the next month for achieving a high number of baptisms. Some of those guys were like Yo-yos: senior ZLs one month, senior companions the next, then ZLs again, then junior companions, etc. That's what happens when baptisms become as important as the basic gospel rules.

Groberg knew about a lot of the chemical sins and about the fooling around. And people confessed to him--not all the time, but sometimes, enough for him to realize what was going on. Two of his MAs have told me personally that Groberg knew about their transgression not just of mission rules but of church behavioral standards. One of them was among the first three that Inoue excommunicated. The pretense that Groberg was innocent of all of this is one of the things that rankled most deeply some of those missionaries, for it made a mockery of God, the church, and themselves; it suggested that Groberg didn't care at all about his charges.

The missionary whom I described from Tokyo North went and met Groberg about 20 years ago. He told me that Groberg seemed to have come to recognize that he'd made a lot of mistakes: imagine how painful it must have been to realize more or less simultaneously that he'd screwed up his missionaries and that his children considered him a failure as a father. That same missionary also visited Kikuchi, who reportedly continued to deny knowing anything.

In my estimation they knew 75% of what was happening and had reason to know much more. Their objective was to achieve the highest possible numbers and let God sort out the mess: the mess of converts, the mess of missionaries. My guess is that before Groberg returned to the States, furthermore, the missionary committee in SLC knew 70% of it. Missionaries were sending letters; parents were making phone calls; RMs and their parents were visiting Haight. SLC was complicit, and we should not forget that.

I guess my take is more harsh.

Elder Kikuchi and Groberg architected a radical new system. As the architects they are 100% responsible for the success and failure of that system.

By way of an analogy, suppose an architect designs a radically different sky scrapper, but did not full comprehend wind shear effects. During an intense storm the building collapses. Who is responsible? Every legal and engineering firm in the world would hold the architect responsible. The architect is responsible for the success and failure of the system. Period. Good intentions do not matter, not thinking of edge conditions is no excuse, blaming others doesn't work, the final results are the only thing that matters.

Social experiments have shown time and time again that in any social system if you measure and reward a particular metric at the expense of all else you will increase the metric you are rewarding and measuring at the expense of all else.

Measuring and rewarding baptisms at the expense of all else, will result in very creative elders achieving baptisms at the expense of everything else. Period. This is not rocket science.

Creative elders are capable of doing anything to get the baptism numbers, including breaking all the rules, including having fake conversions, baptisms, etc... Esp if that is the only thing that is being measured and rewarded.

For people to claim that Groberg didn't understand the elders could do bad things is to argue that he was incompetent. That was his job as the architect to understand the Elder's behavior and check it.

Elder Kikuchi and Groberg architected the TSM baptism / conversion system- it initially succeeded and then failed, miserably - they are 100% responsible. They can not blame the elders for the very system they themselves designed.

As a personal example of another failed social experiment. In the Nagoya mission Pres Sagara every month or so would roll out a new program that was inspired by God (just forget and don't ask about last months program that was also inspired by God).

One new inspired program was to equip each companion set with hand held counters, each time the button was pushed the number would go up by one. The idea was to measure the number of daily initial contacts, and reward the elders who had the highest initial daily counts by giving them parties, extra P-days, etc.. Every night we had to reported the "contact click count" up the chain of command.

This program went exactly the way you would expect, eventually the contact click counts went up exponentially but baptism rates dropped. Elders began prioritizing clicks over discussions and baptisms. I remember being a junior companion, outside the Fukui train station in the middle of winter, all day long, running from person to person, "do you want to hear about Christ", click, running to the next person "do you want to hear about Christ", click, running...ask .. click ... running .. ask .. click .. running .. ask .. click ... sometimes not even waiting for an answer since it was so flipping cold ...running ... click ... click ... click (who cares) ... click... click (it is so cold) ... click... click... click... click... click... click... click..........



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2022 03:22PM by asherah.

      In follow-up internet noodling on this topic, I came across the following:

      “In July 1982, William R. Bradford of the First Quorum of Seventy became executive administrator of Japan and Korea and immediately raised the level of qualifications for baptism as follows:

      1.  Lessons should be taught over a period of at least three weeks.

      2.  Investigators should complete all of the missionary discussions prior to baptism.

      3.  Potential converts should attend sacrament meeting at least three times

      4.  The baptism date should be set by the bishop and missionaries, and the convert.

      5.  A missionary should interview the investigator a few days before baptism.

      6.  The bishop should hold a separate interview to orient the investigator and welcome him or her to the ward.”

      Footnote 58, Journal of Mormon HistoryVol. 36, No. 4, Fall 2010Hasty Baptisms in Japan: The Early 1980s...
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23291122#metadata_info_tab_contents
(I had to register with jstor.org to get access, but it's free and overall, probably well worth the effort, in that you can read 100 articles a month, but I believe you have to pay to download.  But copying and pasting appears to be unrestricted.


      What would be the purpose of “raising” baptism qualifications, in the same month that Groberg was released, other than recognition of the abuses of the Kikuchi-Groberg program?  The footnote for what I copied says that it comes from a memorandum issued by its author which the article's writer copied.  I suspect that the memo did not describe itself as a cure for the Groberg misdeeds, but was simply a note regarding how things would proceed in a post-Groberg era.

Exactly. The church never apologized; it never reached out to assure the RMs that it was not their fault. That failure--that intentional choice--ranks among the worst elements of the TSM episode.

Jesus said to leave the 99 and find the one. The LDS church said, by contrast, "leave the one--even if the ones add up to thousands and, including converts, tens of thousands." The church does not apologize.

I heard of a church apology!

"We're sorry you joined...  It won't happen again."

What's to apologize about Mormons being Mormon? Maybe you oppose boiler room conversions because you aren't Mormon or you are a freak who has a sense of dececy.

Sadly, I don't think these tactics have stopped among the church's missions. Here's proof:
My son went to the Bangkok Thailand mission. They were extremely aggressive in contacting, and would hold up a picture of Jesus, or the typical missionary picture of someone being baptized, and ask people near train stations, "Do you want to be baptized for a remission of your sins?"
THIS WAS BEING DONE IN 2012-2014. The same sales tactics of what I've been reading about the Tokyo mission. Apalling!
My son said that the MP in Thailand during that time justified it by saying that the Lord has prepared some people for accepting him, and that their job was to find those people and help them join the church.
Granted, they would take longer to teach the people, so maybe that wasn't as egregious as the Tokyo example, but amazingly it was the same tactic of challenging people ON THE SPOT to get baptized.
My son said that years later, they stopped this tactic, because it overwhelmingly resulted in membership rolls that were bloated with people who had obviously stopped going to church.

And with the success in Thailand during those years, is it any wonder that we now amazingly have an Apostle (Gong) from that area? My guess is that he was propping up the numbers to show how spiritual and successful his homeland was.

Garrett Gong was born in Redwood City, California to a father whose family had been in the States since the 19th century and a mother whose family had been in Hawaii for generations. Gong learned his Chinese in the MTC and on his mission in Taiwan.

He's no more "from that area" than any of the other apostles.

Imagine the stories that would have been in the wind had I stuck it out and made Apostle!!

I agree with you, but try asking any Asian-related member what they think of Gong, and you will see them beam with pride that there is an Asian Apostle called of the Lord! He takes credit (overtly or not) for success of the church in Asia. And the church definitely plays that up in the Asian arena of the church!

My wife and I used to have get togethers with his family and other friends. He was a very serious and intellectual mormon. A bit of a New Order Mormon at that point in time. Very smart and decent guy at that time.

I like that Gong has an 'out' and 'proud' gay son...  That's gotta be fun for him!  I wonder if any of the other apostles tease him about it?

The tactic of challenging for Baptism on first contact was taught for us to use in European missions in 1977. A lot of the tactics that have been discussed in these threads for the Groberg years were already coming in to play in the Church Missionary program instructions for mission presidents in the middle and late 70s. (Daily reporting of contacts and lessons, shortening and simplifying discussions to a 10 minute first discussion with baptismal challenge, setting up aggressive competition between missionaries, with rewards for high baptizers who broke rules and lied, and fooled around etc.). Part of the driving force were missions like Brazil where we were told our Mission President's son was able to baptize 200 people every month. We were indoctrinated with the tactics that his mission was using in a country where everyone had heard of Mormonism for 120 years and where Christianity was of no interest except to old ladies. Strong arm tactics worked to increase numbers but nothing like in Japan.

> And with the success in Thailand
> ...is it any wonder that we now
> amazingly have an Apostle (Gong)
> from that area?

"Gerrit Gong was born in 1953 in Redwood City, California, to Walter Gong and his wife, the former Jean Char, and raised in Palo Alto, California.  Gerrit was named after Gerrit de Jong because his mother had lived with de Jong and his family while she was a student at BYU.  He had a close almost familial relationship with de Jong and would refer to him as "Grandpa de Jong".  His mother's family are ethnic Chinese in Hawaii, and his father's family lived in California and other parts of the United States after his ancestors emigrated from China in the late 19th century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrit_W._Gong

I should've been more clear when I said an apostle from that area. I meant how he is portrayed and where his ancestors came from. He visited my son's mission multiple times, and I think was an Area authority over in that region, and the church used his notoriety extensively while he was there!

I'm sure what you say is true. I'm also confident the church uses Gong as the poster boy for inclusive Mormonism--look! We even have one of them on our team--at least as much as they promote him as Asian.

When they finally get a black apostle, the poor man is going to get invited to everyone's birthday party.

> When they finally get a
> black apostle, the poor
> man is going to get
> invited to everyone's
> birthday party.

...and here's a photo of Mikayela & Britinny with Apostle Abraham Moses Carver ...

ETA: referring to Mikayela & Britinny above.

I just saw a written list of the names of the six grandchildren of a friend with LDS roots, but all family members are out of Mormonism, but all are Utahn.

All six of the names (three boys, three girls) were clear examples of Utah "creative" spelling. I once saw a FaceBook meme that said "to all Utah children born after 1960, we apologize for your first names."

That's kind of close to the bone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2022 05:19PM by Brother Of Jerry.

I have a 16-year-old granddaughter living in Orem named after my mother, Micaela.  I worry that she is looked down on for the old-school spelling...

My middle TBM daughter is named after an LA Rams quarterback.  And no, I'm not ashamed of myself.

You named your daughter Ferragamo?

Well, I changed it to Ferragama, to make it feminine...

I'm not a barbarian!

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:

> That's kind of close to the bone.

I'll bet it is, Xerraldo!

The church overhauled its missionary discussion plan in 1988.

Link to Haight and Perry long winded discussion about retaining converts. Clearly they knew quick baptizing was wreaking havoc in the church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjwOhriDIo8

I arrived to my Texas mission only to learn that a new MP had been called to clean up day baptisms, severe missionary disobedience and general distrust from members regarding missionaries baptizing any person walking down the street.

First 4 months, the new MP followed strict guidelines about going by the book which was really hard- We were supposed to have church members/ward missionaries when teaching the last 3 of 6 "Rainbow colored discussions". Nobody could or wanted to be bothered to meet a potential new member. So 95% of missionaries trying to score baptisms fudged/lied about that part of the checklist. We actually were supposed to have a member of the bishopric/branch presidency present for the last discussion- fat chance!

By the end of my mission, the MP demanded numbers. We had to challenge people to be baptized when contacted on the street. We were scolded that we might be walking by people who needed to Come to Christ. It was disheartening and sick.

I had several people who needed more time who were poached and baptized by zone leaders who did mid-week baptisms in their apartment swimming pools. Then I faced the wrath of the MP for failing to get them baptized.

Mankosuki, the walking stick from Mt. Fuji rings a bell. I can’t remember if it was my first companion or someone I lived in the same apartment with, but I knew someone that had one. I’m sure a few of the former Nagoya missionaries had them.

You mentioned that Groberg banned climbing Mt. Fuji. It reminded me of an episode I had with him. It was really no big deal, especially when compared to the other things we’ve been talking about here, but it’s an example of the way he said and did things that left a bad taste in my mouth.

Not long after I had arrived in Japan, some members took my companion and me to Kamakura and Enoshima. The giant Buddha and Hachimangu Shrine in Kamakura were very impressive, but it was Enoshima that captivated me the most. The steep narrow streets lined with souvenir shops and shops grilling sazae on shichirin. The shrines that you come upon as you climb the stairs. The beautiful garden with a lighthouse from which you can look out over the ocean. It became then, and still is one of my favorite places in Japan.

Several months later I was talking with an investigator who said he had never been to Enoshima. Of course my companion, who had fairly recently arrived in Japan, had never been there either. I suggested we go the next P-day, and called the ZL to get permission. When he called back he said permission had been denied. “The president said that that is a place for surfers and young girls in bikinis. He said it is not an appropriate place for missionaries, and he said he had to wonder about a missionary who would take a new missionary to such a place instead of working to find people to baptize.”

Now, it’s true that there are famous beaches in that area, and I suppose it could be considered a temptation, but I protested that the beaches were in a completely different area, and where we planned on going is famous for it’s history and culture. The ZL said, “Yeah, right elder. Well I’m not going to call him again. You can if you want.”

I was tempted to call and defend my honor, but I tried to have as little to do with him as possible, and I knew it wouldn’t go well anyway.

Anyway, like I said, not a big deal, and I can even almost see his point. It’s just that the way he said and did things always led to me liking him less and less.

> It’s just that the
> way he said and did things always led to me liking
> him less and less.

If you haven't seen the funeral service that Mankosuki linked a few weeks ago, you may want to do so. The impression it conveys is that his family feels exactly as you do.

Enoshima is a great area. Glad you were able to go there the first time at least. Did the members just take you there and your Sr didn't worry about it? No harm no foul? Easier to get forgiveness than permission? Always hated having to get permission to go anywhere. I tried to have the least amount of contact with him and the mission home as possible.

It was a bummer that we lived among some wonderful cultural areas and not be able to enjoy them. I know this isn't just a Tokyo South issue. The church should let the missionaries enjoy and learn more culture of the areas.

Isn't it bizarre that the church tries to control what volunteers do on their own time with their own money?

My understanding is that long ago, when overseas missions were three years, missionaries were treated more like adults and less like errant children.

I have a relative who was a missionary in the EOD era and served as a mission president more recently. He says that the two experiences were incomparably different.

When he served, missionaries were volunteers and mission presidents expected them within certain limits to manage their own lives. They were additionally encouraged to learn the local culture. My assumption is that all this was lost when Spencer wore the Burger King crown, for he saw missionaries as interchangeable robots and sent so many unprepared and uninterested young people into the field that MPs became baby sitters.

mankosuki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The
> church should let the missionaries enjoy and learn
> more culture of the areas.

During the D-Day period that EOD describes, that was part of the plan. It was lost when the church decided that missionary work was too important to interrupt with "diversions" and that henceforth the seventh day would be Preparation-Day.

On a related note, in late 1981 or early 1982 the Sapporo Mission shortened the length of P-Day by accelerating its end from 6:00 PM to 10:30 AM, meaning basically that P-Day became P-Morning. My sources thought that was a Japan-wide change but are not sure. Does anyone know if that happened in other Japanese missions and/or when it was terminated?

I imagine Bradford would have nixed that innovation in deference to the missionaries' mental health but really have no clue.

Mankosuki, fortunately I've been able to visit Enoshima and Kamakura several times since my mission. I didn't need no permission from nobody.

As to why we were able to go the first time; It was in our zone, and more importantly, the husband of the family that took us was in the stake presidency. They were a very nice, and rich, family who loved to take care of the missionaries. For the first half year of my mission we socialized regularly with the ward members, and they seemed to enjoy it. We did too, of course.

I don't recall talking to even one adult member the second year of my mission. I'm sure I did, but if so it was so perfunctory that it left no impression.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2022 06:19AM by botchan.

Lot's Wife, several years ago I became aware of a series of heart-breaking tragedies that befell the Groberg family. Out of respect to Sis. Groberg and her children, I've never written of it before now, and I don't intend to do so again.

When I heard of Groberg's death, and read the description of his funeral, I felt the video would make me feel very uncomfortable, and that it would be difficult to watch, so I've avoided doing so. Perhaps I should watch it one of these days.

botchan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's Wife, several years ago I became aware of a
> series of heart-breaking tragedies that befell the
> Groberg family. Out of respect to Sis. Groberg and
> her children, I've never written of it before now,
> and I don't intend to do so again.

Understandable and honorable.


-----------------------
> When I heard of Groberg's death, and read the
> description of his funeral, I felt the video would
> make me feel very uncomfortable, and that it would
> be difficult to watch, so I've avoided doing so.
> Perhaps I should watch it one of these days.

It may be of interest at some point but it sounds as if you may know enough already.


-------------
More generally, I wish the best for Groberg's family. It's clear from their speeches that he wasn't a good father, and he apparently lived an ocean away from his wife and kids for 15 or so years towards the end. Surely his family are innocent victims.

It's highly likely that he suffered too. His hopes of a career in the church were dashed in the 1980s; he heard for decades of the damage he'd done and, according to my friend, felt remorse from around 2000 at the latest. His life clearly did not turn out the way he wanted.

My argument, at this point, is with the church. The church exposed innocent, well-meaning kids to two amoral (at best) men motivated by ruthless ambition and lacking in basic human compassion. The church let that system persist much longer than it had to and never offered the wounded RM's even the most meager apology. The Mormon Church accordingly amplified and prolonged the harm wrought by the foolish men it falsely described as divinely chosen.

But Groberg's family had no part in any of that.

I agree with your sentiment, Lot's Wife. I feel nothing negative towards the Groberg family. I knew of some of their struggles before and the memorial service was difficult to watch. It did however give me a little more empathy.

Wasn't it Dallin Oaks that said recently the church doesn't apologize.

Like you botchan, I never had much to do with adults after my first area. My first area had a ward with some very elite members. Prior mission president, head of church translation services, etc. After that it was all small branches or elders apartment church services. Didn't really get to know any members.
My association with adults was mainly with shop owners and workers around the train stations that would see us and we'd talk with daily.

The summer after my mission on my first return trip to Japan, I met and became friends with one of my best friends. The friendship didn't have pre-attached conditions on it. Here it is 40+years later and we still meet up and travel together frequently. Both in the US and Japan.

Asherah made me smile mentioning Fukui. I can picture him out in the cold, following people around, tapping his clicker. Do you know Echizen Ono on the Kuzuryu line? Yep, it gets cold. How about Tojinbo? I digress, sorry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2022 08:01AM by mankosuki.

I think we are all of the same mind regarding the Groberg family.

And Mankosuki, I think we both feel that two years of Groberg, miserable as it was, was a price worth paying for the forty year relationships with Japan that followed, and the people it’s brought into our lives.

There have been recent reports that Rusty is again pushing for all young men to go on missions. That will no doubt be followed by a push for more baptisms.

And it goes on and on and on and on.

I seldom come to this site any more, just popped in and this topic caught my attention. I serve under Groberg and it was absolutely true that getting a high numbers of baptisms was emphasized over a genuine concern of real conversion. I clashed with some of the zone leaders on this issue when I refused to baptize until I felt the investigator was ready.

Hello, Felix! Did you ever return to Japan after your mission was over? Do you feel like your mission contributed to you questioning or becoming disaffected from the church?

My shelf was weakened by the mission experience but the hard landing of loosing my belief in Mormonism came much later and the aftermath of it all still creating issues in my marriage. I am a slow learner.
My wife and I are very polarized over the church. Other than this issue we get along well. I am one of those who left the church but can't leave it alone. Trying to unpack (deconstruct) it all has lead to 20 + years of studying Mormon history and "deep" doctrine. I believe it is the lack of validation from and solidarity with my wife over our differences concerning the church that drives me. I have come to a point of realizing that the average member doesn't have a clue the things in Mormon history and how they really happened.
My wife loves me and treats me too well for me to leave her over it but it almost ended our marriage many years ago. If this weren't the case I would have. As I told a Mormon marriage counselor at one point, I love my wife but I almost hate the Mormon church more at which point he,in so many words, advised her to leave me even thought they are told not to do so.
No I never went back. Love the Japanese people and might have liked to but never felt I had the time or money for it.