https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/11/aotearoa-or-new-zealand-has-the-moment-come-to-change-the-countrys-name

I mention because the prime minister is a progressive-leaning exmormon.

I think that if a majority of a democracy desires such a simple thing as a name change and the native population as a unified block would especially appreciate it, then why not? It's a small thing, but if it builds trust and buries the hatchet just a little further down in the ground...

The land did have a human population and a name or two or three long before European boots touched it. Most of these lands did. White people are reckoning with the unsavory history of how they became so widely dispersed away from northern and western Europe, and I don't think this is an unhealthy social development. Just let it happen organically and democratically and be careful not to engender a mindless whitelash by moving too quickly and I don't see a downside... just make sure it's the actual democratic will of New Zealand first.

I vote for Middle Earth.

Me too. A perfect name for that astonishingly beautiful place I will probably never get to visit.

Not likely.

From the article

But a poll late last year shows the majority of New Zealanders may not be ready yet. Just over half of the respondents (58%) said they wanted to stick with the status quo, but the bloc of respondents who wanted Aotearoa somewhere in the name – be it solely (9%) or a combination of Aotearoa New Zealand (31%) was sizeable.

It's up to them. Not my business.

I've noticed an effort within the past year or so for Australian tourism officials to include native groups and place names alongside the conventional English names with their promotional materials. The trouble from a prospective tourist's point of view is that a lot of the native names are long and tongue-twisty.

Tongue-twisty is right! Even in English some words can be hard to figure out. I was pronouncing Echidna wrong for ages. Fascinating and adorable critter btw.

I get better fuel economy in my car when I drive like I am barefoot and there is an echidna taped onto my gas pedal and it is biting my toes.

They don't bite but once they get their adult spines they will poke.

define "wokeness"

Woke: over the top awareness of injustice and seeking woke changes at all costs,

> Woke: over the top awareness of injustice . . .

What is "over the top awareness" of anything? Give one example of when "awareness," "knowledge," "recognition" become excessive.

---------------------
> seeking woke changes at all costs,

The definition of "woke" is stuff that is "woke?"

Brilliant.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The definition of "woke" is stuff that is "woke?"

> Brilliant.


Yup.

And the definition of asleep is asleep.


Definition of Oxford English Dictionary is, you guessed it:

Oxford English Dictionary.


Definition of Mormonism:

Well, you can insert your own summary here.

Like giving women the vote? That was a "woke" issue for 70 years before the government, which is to say the men, decided oh, alright, women can vote.

Woke is basically a political insult, and what is woke is very much in the eye of the insulter.

I was just watching an old Downton Abbey episode in which the youngest of the Lord's daughters was (scandalously) attending rallies while women were agitating to get the vote.

It's quite startling to be reminded out of the blue how relatively recently in history that all occurred. That women didn't have equal rights, that is.

Of course, many others didn't have them either, including in that time period and especially in light of the serf/master-type social order of the time in Britain.

And, obviously, the fight for equal rights for all is far from over. But at least women can vote now. What a concept.

Maca has always objected to the agenda of "radical feminists," whose agenda had voting as a cornerstone. Does he really feel that women should not have the right to vote?

I remember when women could not get credit under their own names. After my father died, my mother kept her credit cards under his name (i.e. "Mrs. John Smith,") because she could not get them under her own name and credit record until the laws changed many years later.

I remember when women could not ask their doctors for birth control pills unless they were married or engaged, and even then not every doctor would prescribe them. Also, couples could not rent an apartment together unless they were married or engaged.

Every right that women enjoy now was fought for on the part of feminists. Every right. Women never got any critical rights by asking nicely.

My grandmother who died in the mid 1980s (ripe old age, but still, she was within the lifetime of most people here) was a married adult with six children before she was allowed to vote in this, the land of the free. That should be breathtaking.

SCOTUS guaranteed women's right to obtain contraceptives the year I graduated HS.

"Woke" is nothing but a dog whistle telling a specific subset of people to dislike something. It doesn't mean anything. Just a way for one idiot to tell other idiots not to like something.

Or for one idiot to self-identify to another--much like a mating call.

I kind of dig that definition. So, overshooting justice a bit seems ok. I see that happening. But I'm good with it. I could gripe because people trying to do good aren't hitting it perfectly. I do poke some fun here and there. But I absolutely, totally dig seeing people out to make the world accepting of all people. If they're going a bit overboard, well, that's better than undershooting it in my book.

Woke: alert to injustice in society, especially racism.

When Wokeness runs amok, into the upside down world, MLK’s “I Have A Dream” speech is now considered, ironically, ‘racist’.

Sometimes "woke" seems to mean anything coming from the culturally liberal side of the aisle going back as far as 50 or 60 years, the way conservatives use the word. Pro-choice is "woke" to them, even though it's been around half a century.

If I've ever used the word and meant it, I meant it to mock liberal positions that have gotten belligerently stupid and self-eating in their effect on the streets of social media (the sort of stuff Fox News takes and makes the face of non-conservatism), not as put-downs for the general ideas behind what they're fighting for.

There are a string of comedians cashing in on the "anti-woke" movement including Bill Burr, Dave Chapell, and even Bill Maher. Here is a clip of Maher explaining that the "woke" are a bigger threat to liberal democracy than the Christian rightist theocrats:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0iZEFHOE4g&ab_channel=SecularTalk

Obama has come down against the "circular firing squad" on the left. The Chinese have a word for it: "baizuo" or the white left. There is a thing that people across the political spectrum are trying to describe with various words that you might call "left authoritarians" or "left puritans." Some call it "cancel culture". Some call it "extreme political correctness." It's when people claiming to be outraged for and in behalf of various vulnerable and historically marginalized protected groups make you feel like you can't breathe too loudly or else you get a target put on your back by the mob.

BUT... liberal morality or modern cosmopolitanism is not invalid just because some have taken it obnoxiously too far. That is the argument the extreme right is trying to make when they whine about "wokeness," like that excuses making women carry their rapists' babies or other pregnancies that were doomed away to full term. The original puritans and the original social justice warriors are still with us and their larger and more in charge than ever: the movement that killed Roe and wants to roll back everything sixty or seventy years across the board.

There is a good example from this board I dare to bring up: when I tried to make a post to defend the pro-choice position from a new angle that makes people think, people like LW swooped in to make sure everyone knew that unauthorized descriptions of political issues involving women belong only to women. Anyone writing posts or making content about anything without her express permission is sexist, and they must cease and desist while she pretends to pass judgement and lay down the law. I understand that Roe had just been repealed and feelings were raw, but that's no reason to lay in to your own allies right when you need them the most.

So left authoritarianism, leftist sectarianism, wokeness, intersectionalists, postmodern neomarxists, or whatever term ultimately sticks, there is a real thing people are trying to label that is a problem, but we need to make sure that we are separating extremists and those who are annoyingly bad communicators from the issues themselves which need defended.

> There is a good example from this board I dare to
> bring up: when I tried to make a post to defend
> the pro-choice position from a new angle that
> makes people think, people like LW swooped in to
> make sure everyone knew that unauthorized
> descriptions of political issues involving women
> belong only to women.

Cite one instance in which I have ever said "political issues involving women belong only to women" or anything like that.

And no, disagreeing with you doesn't count.


----------------
> Anyone writing posts or
> making content about anything without her express
> permission is sexist, and they must cease and
> desist while she pretends to pass judgement and
> lay down the law.

Since you stomped off to sulk, I've generally ignored your posts because I know how fragile you are and have not wanted to hurt you.

But you are being childish again. You seem to think that we are still in the Mormon church and everyone must smile, and say "God bless him" when you blurt out something unreasonable.

Moreover you reveal yourself to hold grudges against people who have not challenged you in months. Do you know what light that casts on your constant self-pity?


-------------------
> I understand that Roe had just
> been repealed and feelings were raw, but that's no
> reason to lay in to your own allies right when you
> need them the most.

You are not my ally. You are not sufficiently capable of self-reflection to be a dependable ally to anyone.

Physician, heal thyself.

In the year 2022 Re-Branding fixes all problems. Got a big issue? Call it something else and it goes away. It's the panacea for everything. And works so well. Just look what it did for the Mormon church when they dropped Mormon for TCOJCOLDS! Everything's suddenly coming up roses. Or, sego lilies.

Makes me wonder what we should call the United States of America to fix it. Goodness knows it needs fixing. And Goodness is always the first to know. Certainly no Garden of Eden, that's for sure.

A lot of countries have done this. Burkina Faso, Myanmar, Bangladesh, all of which have populations that dwarf New Zealand, to name just a few.

While the US didn’t adopt a native-derived name, quite a few of the states did, especially in the Mississippi/Missouri River region. Even three of the original thirteen colonies have native names.

I think the only odd thing about New Zealand is that it did not recently throw off colonial rule, the usual trigger for a name change, and it is now basically run by the descendants of the colonists, not the native population.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A lot of countries have done this. Burkina Faso,
> Myanmar, Bangladesh, all of which have populations
> that dwarf New Zealand, to name just a few.

Zimbabwe, Congo, Sri Lanka, Taiwan. there are so many. . . Malaysia.

Then there are the complex cases. Is "Russia" a more indigenous name than the Soviet Union? How about Kazakhstan? Moldova? The spawn of Yugoslavia? The collapse of empires almost always produces nominal indigenization.

And what about places like France? That would be a replacement of "Gaul" by a more local name albeit one that only became localized through invasions, meaning that the imperially imposed Gaul is replaced by an imperially imposed France. Which is more genuinely native?


----------------------
> While the US didn’t adopt a native-derived name,
> quite a few of the states did, especially in the
> Mississippi/Missouri River region. Even three of
> the original thirteen colonies have native names.

Utah. Hawaii.


-----------------
> I think the only odd thing about New Zealand is
> that it did not recently throw off colonial rule,
> the usual trigger for a name change, and it is now
> basically run by the descendants of the colonists,
> not the native population.

I don't think that is uncommon. Look at the countries of the former Soviet Union. This is slightly different, but think of the United States and its formation: a local British elite led a revolution against the British elite and otherwise kept basically everything intact. The United States of "America" reverts to a term that is earlier than the British period but nevertheless an imperialist imposition in its own right.

And India. A country whose educated English-speaking elite took power from the Britons (and others) but then disgorged Burma and Pakistan, which in turn disgorged Bangladesh, and each of those smaller states was still dominated by the India-educated English-speaking elite.

It turns out that political nomenclature is as complicated and inconsistent as history itself. Who would have thought?

Utah should actually be named piute or something Shoshone, the Utes were actually from Colorado but got kicked out by the government. So we're actually woke to the wrong set of people.

And the Sioux were originally from around Wisconsin. And did not refer to themselves as Sioux[Nakota, Lakota, Dakota]

Wyoming is a native name from Pennsylvania. Wilkes Barre is in Wyoming County. Other "wy" words from the region are Wyalusing, Wyona, Wynona, Wyandotte.

I have not been able to find out how Wyoming got attached to a state in the Rockies.

The Utes originated from the Uto-Aztecan substrate in the area situated in southwest of CO and the southeast of UT. Neither was earlier, nor later. Neither was "kicked out" by the government more than the other.

Umm, Paiute... Pai-ute. And the Ute did roam all across the Colorado Plateau and were familiar with what is now Utah. Heck, in 1776 the Ute led the Dominguez-Escalante Expedition through Colorado and to Utah Lake.

Utah, Hawaii, and Alaska. If you omit the states where the Americans just adopted the Spanish name (Colorado, Montana, Florida, etc) or the French name (Louisiana), Almost all the the other states added to the US had native-derived names.

The exceptions are Maine (origin of name unclear), Washington state, and ironically, Indiana, a non-native name indicating the native origin of the state. I don't think Idaho is of native derivation, but it is certainly not English.

The Mormons tried multiple times to get admitted to the US as the state of Deseret. I don't know if the name change to Utah was one of the conditions of admittance, but it wouldn't surprise me. "No, you can't name the state after some made-up word in your golden bible."

BTW, for the record, the three colonies that were given native names were Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Delaware.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think Idaho is of native
> derivation, but it is certainly not English.

I found this on a look-up (who knows how accurate it may be):

"When a name was being selected for new territory, eccentric lobbyist George M. Willing suggested "Idaho," which he claimed was a Native American term meaning "gem of the mountains". It was later revealed Willing had made up the name himself."


Wiki:

"George M. Willing was a wealthy industrialist and failed congressional candidate in the 1860s. He is sometimes credited with inventing the name "Idaho", falsely claiming that it was a Native American word. Thus, the naming of Idaho is likely the result of a hoax, although not all historians are in agreement on the matter."

I think it's time to rename Idaho as North Texas as long as everyone is re-branding.

I think North Florixas would be more fitting.

Oh, that's excellent!

Florida --> Fl
Oregon --> or
Idaho --> i
Texas --> xas

But don't another 10 or 15 states deserve inclusion?

Florides ?

Delaware (the state) is named for Delaware (the river) which in turn was named for Thomas West, 3rd Baron De La Warr.

The native Americans who were called Delaware Indians by the British for where they lived actually had the autonym Lenape (Lënapeyok).

Of the thirteen colonies, only Massachusetts (from Wampanoag "muswachasut") and Connecticut (from Mohegan "quinetucket") are of native origin.

Tyson

Ah, so. Thanks. It does sound European.

While Maryland is English-derived, there are tons of native place names here. Chesapeake means "Great Shellfish Bay" in the original Algonquin language, because evidently the native people liked a good crab feast as well as anyone. "Patuxent" means "The Come-and-Go" River because its tides flow in both directions. The Honga river means Goose River, Alloway Creek means Fox Creek, and so on.

periodically there's an effort to rename Mt. Rainier which is SE of Seattle to Mt. Tahoma which is represented (true/false?) as the native American name for it; I'm under the impression that the 'Rainier' guy it's named for never saw it.

other native versions have been spelled ('English') Twulshootseed, pronounced "Taquoma"

Next: Mt. Baker which was named after a 3rd. Lt. in the George Vancouver expedition.

I don't see those non-representative 'white European' names as set in concrete, why not change them?

Also, I wish the U.S. would switch 100% to the metric system, but that's a different chapter in my book...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2022 09:41PM by GNPE.

>> periodically there's an effort to rename Mt. Rainier which is SE of Seattle to Mt. Tahoma <<

But what about the beer?!?! Tahoma doesn't even rhyme with beer!!!

Does Aotearoa mean "the country that gets left off of some maps?"

I can't figure out how to pronounce that. Then I'd likely forget how anyway. Too, I can't keep up with too many name changes.

https://www.stravon.com/new-zealand

NEW ZEALAND - Aotearoa "The Land Of The Long White Cloud" is a land that was created by volcanoes and then calmed by glaciers. In the beginning it was a land of birds, there was no man, no deer, no pigs, just birds (and a couple bats). Birds that couldn’t fly, small birds, gigantic birds such as the Moa & Haast’s Eagle and some birds whose ‘song’ can haunt you (in a good way) forever. What a sight (and sound) it must’ve been for the first people to arrive on these glorious shores!

If legend is to be believed, Kupe sailed home after his discovery of the islands that we now know as New Zealand in about 925 AD and it took his descendants another 200 years to discover it again.

There's something to be said about a place that keeps needing to be discovered because in 1642, Abel Tasman discovered a "large land uplifted high.” However, he never set foot on land. Losing four men off the coast in a clash with local Maori during an effort to get to shore was enough to send him home but not before naming the place New Zealand. In 1769, Captain James Cook turned up and 'discovered' what was thought to be the last great continent. He had in fact found the last place for man to try again.

We like to think of it as saving the best till last.


Note: This is a hunting video, but it does show the natural beauty of the landscape.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkHcbs0xiJ0



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2022 10:50AM by anybody.

I don't think it's wokeness.

Even 20 years back, all the highway signs and government documents were bilingual, in both english and maori. Not just the tourist roads or things like that. They've had a longstanding commitment to inclusivity, or at least some respect for recognizing the native population rather than marginalizing them (like AU or US). They commonly use Maori words as loan words for many things, especially produce.

If you watch NZ programming, some narrators and hosts will use aotearoa and new zealand interchangeably.

As for tourists, most go home with aotearoa branded souvenirs.

Aotearoa isn't hard to pronounce. I typically go with the pronunciation "heaven on earth" (for both new zealand and aotearoa), but the correct pronunciation isn't that difficult. "ow-Tee-uh-ROW-uh.

It's a pretty name -- very melodic sounding.

Agreed. Thanks for the pronunciation guide. I'll be able to remember it better now.

I think it is pretty too.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pronounce+Aotearoa&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS840US840&sxsrf=ALiCzsblBpMfz20FZB4vMx2RTKKLNw38VA%3A1661928979071&ei=EwYPY9b7A-XE9AOKoLfQCw&ved=0ahUKEwiW0cHzv_D5AhVlIn0KHQrQDboQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=pronounce+Aotearoa&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQgAEIAEMggIABAeEA8QFjIICAAQHhAPEBYyBQgAEIYDMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgM6BAgAEEc6BAgjECc6CggAEB4QDxAWEAo6BggAEB4QFjoKCAAQgAQQhwIQFDoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6CAgAEIAEELEDOggIABCxAxCDAUoECEEYAEoECEYYAFDjNVjddGCNjgFoAHACeACAAWKIAYAEkgEBOJgBAKABAaABAsgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

Here is a video of Jacinda Ardern talking about the plan.

https://youtu.be/g9rsxFaq6Ig

I vote for Middle Earth.

Stephen Colbert would agree with that. He has been several times and loves it. I think the highlight of his life was being made a citizen of Hibbiton. He turns into a 9 year old boy every time he talks about LoR. It is cute to see. The books got him through the deaths of his father and closest brother when he as a kid so they are very dear to him.

Seems as though it would have been more accurate in the subject line to have put:
"New Zealand the change it's name BACK TO IT'S ORGINAL NAME."

That's not wokeness at all. That's overcoming it.


HH =)

Excellent point.

As a citizen of Aotearoa, I think changing it makes sense. Where the heck is Zealand, if it's where we are named after? Probably named by a "discoverer" even though people were already here. We tried to change the flag a few years ago and peopled boo'd it down. Our flag is so much like most other commonwealth nations, which again were claimed and colonized even though it was already peopled.

Zealand is the largest island in Denmark. It's where Copenhagen is located.

But New Zealand was names after the Dutch province of Zeeland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand

"The first European visitor to New Zealand, Dutch explorer Abel Tasman, named the islands Staten Land, believing they were part of the Staten Landt that Jacob Le Maire had sighted off the southern end of South America.[13][14] Hendrik Brouwer proved that the South American land was a small island in 1643, and Dutch cartographers subsequently renamed Tasman's discovery Nova Zeelandia from Latin, after the Dutch province of Zeeland.[13][15] This name was later anglicised to New Zealand.[16][17]"

Excellent find.

I was wondering how on earth the Danes got down there given that the height of their naval prowess was the Viking era. The Dutch, by contrast, dominated what is now Indonesia.