I don’t stay very aware of current news; I haven’t watched TV of any kind in at least a year.  (I don’t know that I would recommend this, but it’s working for me.)  Thanks to Reddit and the r/exmormon subreddit, I do probably keep pretty up to date on exmormonism, and mormonism.

There is currently a brouhaha regarding an upgrading of the standard of performance for CES instructors.  I think this article can be read as an overview: https://bycommonconsent.com/2022/09/02/how-to-beat-an-autocrat-fear-not-i-e-dont-cave-friends/

If you do read the article, I would suggest moving on to the comments: https://bycommonconsent.com/2022/09/02/how-to-beat-an-autocrat-fear-not-i-e-dont-cave-friends/#comments

“TBMs are whack!”, is the conclusion that I came to.  This allows for progression to the notion that the church itself is whack!

And finally to my concluding question, does this ‘statement’, obviously from a TBM, ring true to you?: “Finally, it is a common law concept that one owes a duty of loyalty to their employer.  One is not loyal if they accept payment from an employer, but actively try to undermine and work against their employer.”

I have been both an employee and an employer and in neither position was I in complete agreement with the above statement.

What are your thoughts on this?

In most instances Loyalty is a control tool. Simply means you have sold your soul. Means you will go against your own better judgement and integrity to stand by someone's agenda because-----------you promised!

Loyalty is the basis of the Temple and why it is so important to Mormonism. If only getting "endowed" meant you were being given and upgrade in "equipment."

At least the loyalty program at the supermarket gets you lower prices once you join. With the Mormons it's the opposite.

Ok. Me again. Read the links. So glad I did. That woman writes with intelligence and heart and integrity and no forked tongue. Oh Crap! The Gerontocracy just keep turning the screws and they are indeed getting blood out of their turnips, and, a lot of the turnips are happy to give it apparently.

This comment answers your question about loyalty for me:

Alma Frances Pellett says:
September 2, 2022 at 2:20 pm
Makes me glad my mother managed to teach me that “support” and “sustain” don’t necessarily mean “agree with”.


This could have been a comment by my mother who supports and sustains---yea even with arm to the square standing in front of the TV for Conference---even though she knows of all the crap and has actually said, "I think Dallin Oaks is going to have a lot to answer for in the after life." But she sustains him.

Why oh why is the word loyalty always assumed to be a positive thing by so many?

This statement says it all:

Authoritarian regimes operate through just such fear. It is not the punishment, but the threat of it, that holds the most potential power.



And that is what it all comes down to where the church is concerned.

Elderolddog wrote in part:

"And finally to my concluding question, does this ‘statement’, obviously from a TBM, ring true to you?: “Finally, it is a common law concept that one owes a duty of loyalty to their employer. One is not loyal if they accept payment from an employer, but actively try to undermine and work against their employer.”"

This was the view of my mother about employment until the day she died, and it squares with the views of a lot of people who grew up during the 1950s. For them, it helped the world make sense. The problem was that historically, it wasn't/isn't true. Unless you lived on a farm or owned your own company for your entire life, neither of which involve loyalty to others, your professional life was spent looking for higher-paying jobs, and, if you were a woman, a husband who could take care of you so you wouldn't have to work anymore.

The view of the 1950s came about because many U.S. companies after the Great Depression, the New Deal, and World War II began offering great retirement packages to employees who stayed loyal to that company all of their lives until they retired. These packages were primarily aimed at managers, but there were some union contracts, most notably in the auto industry if memory serves, that allowed members to take advantage of these perks as well.

All of this basically came to an end during the 1980s and 1990s when corporate stockholders began pushing for more dividends and that corporations become more profitable. If they didn't, there were people like T. Boone Pickens who would swoop in, buy up a majority of the available shares, and then fire the entire management and use available corporate cash to fund their next takeover bid. Cutting those worker and lower-management pensions proved an easy decision for corporations at risk of takeover, and it helped their stock prices to soar. However, one of the results was that recently hired workers, seeing that the benefits being offered to them were worse than the benefits offered to those a generation back, basically said in essence, "Okay. If this company ain't going to be loyal to me, I'm not going to be loyal to it, either." So now, unless you're a corporate executive, the only retirement plans you are likely to get are whatever you manage to squeeze into your 401(k)s and IRAs. And that means that though corporate executives expect otherwise, employees are about as loyal to their companies as their companies are to them. The days of unquestioning corporate loyalty ar long gone and probably for forever. It also means that the statement from the probable TBM no longer rings true, though it was true for a little while.

Apparently CES now refers only to BYU employees. Seminaries and Institutes are now under a different department (S & I.)

According to the author, CES has been firing a substantial number of adjuncts (part time employees,) who according to her, have been working for not a whole lot more than minimum wage. The fired adjuncts that she knows of had their bishop's endorsements along with temple recommends. They are baffled as to why they were fired. CES administrators have been filling in for the fired adjuncts.

Seminaries & Institutes is a division under CES, like the universities and colleges. (My dad was an S&I administrator). One of the seventies gave a talk at Education Week this year calling S&I the "spiritual anchor" of CES.

Oh, okay -- thanks for clarifying.

I'm wondering if the cutbacks are purely financial in nature.

My impression from the article is that administrators see the system crumbling, and are desperately trying to shore it up.

Somebody has to take the blame for the failing system. they can't blame the product, and they won't blame the administrators, since they are the administrators, so they blame the teachers.

To switch metaphors, some of the deck chairs on the Titanic are being tossed overboard to keep the ship afloat a little longer.

This reprises the "raising the bar" for missionaries 20 years ago which, over time, contributed to the collapse in the number of young people who were interested in serving.

If the church keeps raising bars, sooner or later no one will be left in the prison.

I won't be "loyal" to an organization that won't adhere to the same level of loyalty to me. When I work for an organization, I am hired and paid for the work I produce in benefit of that organization. I am not hired or paid for my beliefs and/or "loyalty" whatever that means. Look how TSCC dumped its loyal janitors so they could save another billion.

There is a word covering what you're asking for: Fealty.

It's a fascinating concept. Basically, it means *loyalty* running in both directions between two entities, regardless of their relative powers.

Marriage should include oaths of fealty.

I find your terminology to be correct, it really is now a system based upon fear and subjection.

Rationals, independants, and intellectuals are leaving in droves, as they realize it is desired that we simply write checks and drink the Kool-Aid. Leadership is nothing more than people with management skills given the task of herding the cattle into the coral.

I saw this behavioral change the last time I spoke with a bishop. He was not interested in me as a person, he was interested in me doing exactly as told per what the church was teaching (cough cough demanding) he do with the ward members.

This move with the CES system is a clear example of where the church is heading, they are trying to perfect the blind follower to keep the war chest full, and the look of that clean cut kid. When you hear a talk given by Bednar stating that we really do not have free agency, and that when we join the church we are to do as told, our opinions and concerns do not matter. That is when the smart ones realize it is time to get the hell out of Dodge.

These are fascinating links to hoe the church is currently testing for loyalty among its s&I group. The trickiest question that bishops are now asking to see if they'll retain church employment is 'do you support the brethren in the definition of gender'

S&I are walking a fine line here they are suppose to be welcoming of all kinds of diverse kids, in getting buts in seats, are they to be lgbtq friendly? How far can they take it? Can they be lgbtq allies? Should they be advocating for change dismantling systems of oppression?

There's a great mormon stories podcast all about this, the Marc Osland episode, he was a seminary teacher in pleasant Grove and became an lgbtq ally wearing a rainbow lapel, and took down pictures of the brethren replacing them with Jesus. The kids loved him but It didn't go over well... and he was shoved out.

I worked for LDS Family Services in the mid 2,000's. It coincided with my becoming aware, and leaving the church.

Leaving started with reading No Man Knows My History. Then at work, a new rule was implemented from Salt Lake saying that said that women had to wear a skirt and nylons.

I told my boss that I thought it was sexist. Being a bit naive to how things work as an employee for the cult, I thought that it would lead to a discussion.

What it really led to was him telling me that I need to re-evaluate my fit for being an employee of the church. At first I was shaken, offended, and quietly pissed.

After a bit of soul searching, and reading the book about JS, I decided that I was in fact, not a good fit.

So I started paying about 5% tithing(you had to be a full tithe payer to work there) and saying it was full. Because by then I knew that it was all a fraud and didn't matter anyway. The Bishop would look at me like, really? And I'd look at him like, yup, it's full!

The whole time I was there, I was normalizing masturbation. Telling them what is normal for humans etc. I'd tell them that they need to get religious advice from their leaders. I was there to give them mental well-being advice.

After leaving the church mentally, I was normalizing a lot of other feelings that mormons have conflict about. Of course all of my coworkers were telling them to read scriptures and pray. I gave real counseling.

Eventually, they needed someone to leave, and I volunteered. Family Services still had bishops referring clients to my private practice for what I was particularly good at until I moved. That was my last association with them.

Sounds like it got much worse since then.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2022 12:09AM by DNA.

It seems quite logical that in this day and (internet)age, one cannot both 'think' and 'mormon-believe' at the same time, as was done in the past.  There are just too many gosh-darn provable facts to make that possible now.

It's another ideological purge. Nothing to do with performance, more to do with loyalty.

If you don't agree with Rusty and his program, you're out. If you question anything he says or does, like vandalizing historic artwork in temples... you're out.