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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 12:08AM


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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 12:10AM

I think the royal family makes the bakers hat the green apron and secret handshakes look like chump change.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 12:52AM

In terms of the number of supporters, probably true;

to the extent that supporters are fooled, Mormonism beats the Royals / Queen-King

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 01:14AM

Mormons are too cheap for serious pomp.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 02:29AM

Much of that pomp is old. The glassware used at Buckingham Palace dates back to King George III. So does the gold carriage. Much of the silverware dates back to Queen Victoria as does many of the gold threaded ceremonial uniforms.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 02:31AM

With the royal family the bling is real. Real jewels. Real castles and palaces. Real land holdings.

In the church you have to die to see if any of it is real.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 01:39PM

Erased. Sorry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2022 01:40PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 02:52AM

In mormonism, her royal highness is now just another walking womb, waiting for a call on a phone that can’t call out.

Imagine how silly she must feel . . .

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 07:18AM

The queen of the Deseret beehive is too busy pumping out eggs to worry about such things. Earth needs several new spirit babies per second.

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Posted by: gemini ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 09:08AM

The pomp and pageantry was quite over the top, I agree. On the one hand, it must carry a sense of continuity and even comfort for the folks who turned out to witness the funeral of the queen.

I have to admit that I did have just the slightest giggle when I saw the line of soldiers with the head gear with white streamers that looked like toilet paper.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 10:16AM

I also chuckled at the toilet paper looking hats, but I boiled at the hundreds of bear skin fur hats. I don't care if they are old or tradition. Using bear skin for costumes is a tradition that is as distasteful to me as fur coats. I hope for better progress in the way we respect and treat animals.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 09:57AM

It hit me the other day that all the pomp and protocol and tradition and stuff came from some monarch just deciding that's the way it should be. No other reason than that's the way they liked it. Then later generations thought, "Who are we to mess with the way things are?"

Religion works pretty much the same way.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 10:27AM

I had that exact same thought.

There were so many quirky movements I imagined that everyone would touch their nose and turn their heads to the left when the royal orb got lifted or something.

So much of it seemed completely arbitrary and strange to me. I was observing motions intended to establish and maintain tradition, pageantry, and ritual. It struck me how humans crave that kind of thing and how religion is the master of providing it.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 11:05AM

They have not been made from bear skin for a very long time. Mostly synthetic but still called bear skins..

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 12:36PM

I hope that is true. I know this is an ongoing issue for animal activists (I'm really not one). I know there was a petition about it not too long ago. The government response to the petition was supposedly:

"Currently we have no plans to end the use of bearskins. Bear pelts that are used are the by-products of a licensed cull by the Canadian authorities to manage the wild bear population."

I do not have the sources for all this other than animal activist say-so. I don't see a source that they have officially switched to synthetic, but I hope that is true.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 04:15PM

Bears were never killed specifically to provide fur for hats. Canada culls its bear population often as part of conservation and skins were provided from that cull. Helmets are used over and over for incoming soldiers to the guards regiments after cleaning and refurbishment. They are part of their ceremonial uniform as they are regular British Army soldiers who wear fatigues most of the time.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 05:44PM

kentish said:

"Bears were never killed specifically to provide fur for hats."

"Canada culls its bear population often as part of conservation and skins were provided from that cull."

Both these statements are true on their face.

Below are some article excerpts that provide more information about the issues:


The Fur Institute of Canada maintains that bear hunting provides social and economic benefit.

The Government of Canada states that bear culls are necessary for various reasons (protecting the health of the species, protecting human populations).

The "Animal Justice" group states that the information about culls is not true.


From the Fur Institute of Canada (pro):

https://fur.ca/conservation/black-bear-population-in-canada/

“Bears are hunted for the provision of social and economic benefits. Many licensed hunters use the meat and provide the pelt for human use. Bear hunting provides additional income to people living in rural communities, where economic opportunities are limited. The manufacturers of Royal Guards hats (Busby) generally obtain their furs from fur auction houses in Canada, which sell the bear hides on behalf of the hunters and trappers.”


From the Animal Justice site re “The Queen’s Guards’ Caps” (con)

https://animaljustice.ca/blog/canadian-bears-killed-queens-guards-caps

“Bearskin caps are used by militaries in over a dozen countries, but the most iconic are the headdresses worn by foot guards outside of Buckingham Palace. The controversial use of bear fur for ceremonial hats and how it helps fuel Canada’s hunting industry was highlighted in the British House of Commons this week [this column was published on July 15].

“United Kingdom (UK) Members of Parliament (MPs) debated the ongoing use of real bearskin caps by the Queen’s Guard following a successful PETA UK petition calling for the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to end its funding of the slaughter of bears for ceremonial hats by replacing them with an indistinguishable faux fur alternative.

“In response to the petition, the UK government’s stated position is that the bear pelts exported from Canada to produce the caps are a by-product of a licensed cull by Canadian authorities to manage wild bear populations. And during the debate, the UK’s Minister of State for Defence Procurement argued that bear pelts are purchased exclusively from Canada because it is a regulated market with strict laws. The problem? It isn’t true.

“Freedom of information act requests have revealed that the UK government does not know the details of the supply chain for the fur it buys, as MP John Nicolson pointed out during the debate:

“The evidence is that most bears in Canada are killed by trophy hunters who know there is a market for the skins. Canadian Government culls are infrequent and only authorised to kill the small number of bears straying too close to human habitation. The MoD has no idea about the provenance of the dead bears it buys. The evidence, again, is that they are often nursing mothers. When they are killed to make a hat, their cubs starve to death.”


Government of Canada (harvest is permitted, under regulations):

https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/convention-international-trade-endangered-species/non-detriment-findings/american-black-bear.html

“Black bear is harvested as a both a game animal species (all range jurisdictions) and a furbearer species (British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, and Nova Scotia) under the authorization of hunting/trapping permits or licences in accordance with their respective Wildlife Acts. The predominant method of harvest is hunting and Canadian export is primarily hunting trophies. Harvest of black bear occurs throughout its range (12 of 13 provinces and territories).”

“The majority of export of black bear from Canada is related to sport hunting (skins, rugs, taxidermy mounts or meat). Occasionally skins are sold and exported through auction houses. Guides, outfitters, fur traders, taxidermists, manufacturers and retailers are controlled under all jurisdictional Wildlife Acts. All are subject to operator licences, reporting procedures and/or inspections, ensuring that effective controls are in place to prevent the entry of illegally harvested bears into trade.”

-----

One of the biggest "predators" for the bears to worry about is indeed humans. Bears and wolves, among other wild animals, are put down every year due to the carelessness, ignorance or worse, of humans who don't respect boundaries or animal rights or just don't educate themselves.

By the actions of humans some animals must be otherwise unnecessarily put down because they have become acclimatized to human activity, even in what should be considered animal territory. The animals are killed to prevent negative effects on humans (such as animals reacting to human encroachment by doing what wild animals instinctively do, which is to protect their territory). Not hiking out of wilderness areas with one's garbage (food scraps etc) is a good way to get an innocent animal killed as by instinct they seek out more food from that source and may be seen to be a danger to humans if they appear in populated areas. That's just one way that many humans aren't kind to animals.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2022 05:56PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 06:28PM

Thanks for that.

Either way, it's a bad look in this day and age IMO.

I wouldn't wear fur coats and I don't buy leather anymore. It's a personal choice, I know. Which side shows respect for the animal is a matter of opinion. I'm not a fan of trophy and sport hunting, but I do recognize animal population issues, etc.

Here is a link with some information about the petition to the Ministry of Defense. Of interest to me was their response (click on it- not very long).

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/602285

"A man-made fabric manufactured by Ecopel was passed to an independent testing house by PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), and those results were shared with the MOD. However, our analysis of the results shows that it does not in fact reach the standards needed to provide an effective replacement for our bearskin ceremonial caps."

I say, if there is a market for this kind of thing, people will find ways to exploit animals. Don't get me started on rhino and elephant tusks.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 06:53PM

I’ve always wondered what it’s like to make love in a bear skin ceremonial royal guard hat . . .

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 06:56PM

--as if you've never done that before.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 06:58PM

Hasn't everyone?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 07:06PM

Don't tell me that you two. . .

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 07:12PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’ve always wondered what it’s like to make
> love in a bear skin ceremonial royal guard hat . .
> .

Likely a bit top-heavy.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 11:27AM

I'm not into furry.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 10:14AM

Tradition evolves over time. Britain has had plenty of time to add to and change its tradition as it did this time around. It does of course beat an assault on the seat of power.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 02:37PM

Nicely put.

An independent head of state, particularly one with minimal political power, becomes a symbol of unity when political disputes threaten to tear the state apart as is happening in the United States now. The emperor of Japan played a similar role during the country's defeat and reorganization in the 1940s.

I'm not saying the institution is on balance a net positive--color me agnostic--but outsiders are far too ready to deny its undoubted advantages.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 10:28AM

The English know what Mazeppa and little Tessie Tura knew--"You gotta have a gimmick!"

Mormons know that too but lean way towards lame with their gimmicks.

One represents the historical and the other the hysterical.



But, the big question is really who has more money?

And who does the World tune in to see? How many people have won Baftas, Oscars, or Emmys playing Russ?

It's all English pudding vs Green Jello.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 10:49AM

Are you saying Oaks and Nelson awkwardly waving handkerchiefs and attempting to shout “hosanna” was not the show-stopper they were hoping it would be?

Maybe they should add their aprons and bakers hats, to give it that extra push.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 10:56AM

LOL! You'd think they would realize there's a reason for the costumes, pointy hats and garb that kept Catholics so enthralling to the masses. But no. White shirts and hankies. Amateurs, I tell you. Mormons are amateurs.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 11:41AM

There is no particular reason why Americans should like, appreciate, or even understand British traditions but they are the epitome of pomp and circumstance which reflects who we are as a people. Likely the finery and uniforms would remain even if, heaven forbid, the country did become a republic. There's not too many of those around that provide a better model.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 12:11PM

Pomp draws literally Tons of Tourists to GB, also Mormons doing family research / Genealogy.

I like that some law enforcement officers wear those old-fashioned helmets… Do they shed rain???

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 01:27PM

I saw estimates that over 4 billion people watched parts of the funeral. perhaps well over 4 billion. Likely a figure north of 7 billion knew who she was.

How many people will watch Rusty's funeral, even if he is dressed in the Full Mo?

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 01:43PM

There was nothing else on live. I was surfing around trying to see news reports about Puerto Rico, but no...it was all queen coverage all morning.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 22, 2022 02:26PM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many people will watch Rusty's funeral, even
> if he is dressed in the Full Mo?

The Full Mo. LOL

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 01:27PM

Yep, and they give policemen height so they can be seen in a crowd. Had a policeman friend way back in the 60s who told me there was an informal poll among London police on the suggestion of giving up the helmets for caps. It was heavily defeated.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 01:44PM

The Queen wasn't silly.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: September 20, 2022 06:33PM

No she was not and neither was the funeral she received which was in most elements the same as her father's before her and his father before him. Except for the Crown elements it was the same for Churchill, one of only three non royals to be so honored by the nation. I would use the word dignity to describe her and the funeral, something we are desperately in need of in our modern world.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 12:40AM

The last thing Queen Elizabeth was is silly. Frankly, the topic of this thread is, at best, silly. I think stupid is closer to the mark. The US has it's own traditions and ceremonies too. Is the anthem at ball games silly? England is just a little extra because they have been around so long and HONOR their traditions. Oh no! The horror! Instead of off the cuff mocking some should take a bit of time and learn WHY they have those traditions. They didn't just fly out of someone's butt like a monkey.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 05:31AM

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Frankly, the topic of this thread is, at best,
> silly. I think stupid is closer to the mark.

Yep.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 08:09PM

Agreed LW.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 12:06PM

Yes, Kentish. The queen took a big chunk of dignity and class with her when she left.

And Susan nailed it.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 10:36PM

Hey even a broken clock is right twice a day D&D :) Agree 100% on the class and dignity. I will endure through who the current chair holders are and hope I live to see William and Kate. I think she learned a LOT from Queen Elizabeth and will live up to the standards she set.

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Posted by: Graham Chapman ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 07:02PM

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The last thing Queen Elizabeth was is silly.

It was silly when her stunt double parachuted into the stadium with James Bond for the 2012 Olympics.

https://jamesbond.fandom.com/wiki/Happy_%26_Glorious

Then there was her hologram being driven around London in a golden coach for the last Jubilee. The Palace openly admitted to it and the hologram had dark (not gray) hair so was not from recent photographs. People were waving at it as it went by... weird.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/queen-elizabeth-hologram-appears-royal-201732349.html

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 07:22PM

The first was humorous and the second to give a semblance of what she was not able to do what had been planned. You seem to be suggesting there was intent to deceive with the hologram but anyone with a tiny amount of understanding would know that was not true as she was dressed in the coronation robes of 1953 and wearing the Coronation crown. Since that coach had not been seen since 1953 it was a chance for much of the population to see it in use for the first time.

That said, one person's silliness is another's ability to enjoy self deprecating humor, something Brits are very good at.

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Posted by: Can’t find my password ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 01:39AM

Certain posters wills never understand ritua,tradition and ceremony in death,government or religion.Saying something is silly because it isn’t your tradition shows ur immaturity more than anything else.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 11:13AM

That's why we should look at our own rituals too. For example, I'm not thrilled with my culture's burial rituals because they are wasteful and bad for the environment.

Humans are ritual-making animals. Some rituals seem silly and others meaningful or beautiful. Some, as we learn about various rituals through history, are downright creepy (say, like sacrificing a virgin or self flagellation to commemorate martyrdom). It's a way we link to the past and tradition. It's a mixed bag, but it is what we humans do. Some humans appreciate or need ritual more than others. Others are left scratching their heads about one ritual or another. All rituals are not equal. I think it is fine to look at them through an anthropologists eyes and see them for what they are. Most are important and valuable to us as humans.

I think most of us can agree the rituals for the queen's burial demonstrated the respect, tradition, and love people had for her.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 09:40PM

Graham Chapman, or whoever, the taxes to support the monarchy amounts to about 60 pence per year per person, hardly a sum that will dent anyone's lifestyle. Pretty small price to pay for the publicity the Crown generates world wide and as the glue that holds everything together. Do you honestly think your taxes would go down if the monarch was replaced by a president?

I am puzzled about the pledges of allegiance you suggest are a requirement placed on British people seemingly at various levels. Enlistment into the armed services I can understand but having grown up in the UK (I assume you are in the UK) and still holding British citizenship, I have never been required to make such a pledge.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: September 21, 2022 11:54PM

Additionally it is false to claim that Canadians pay taxes to support the monarchy. They do not. When the monarch visits Canada expenses are paid by the Canadians government. Would that be any different from costs hosting any other world leader?

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