There are a handful of things that still get under my skin once in a while and can have me second-guessing my conclusions about the church.

Don't get me wrong--the mountain of evidence that it's all bullshit is more than enough to keep me off the strait and narrow. But those few little things still bother me sometimes. I wish I could think of an example. The point is though, in my mind, the answers I have for those concerns, as good as they may be, don't feel substantial enough. Probably just the remaining vestiges of a lifetime of indoctrination and conditioning I guess. I'm just wondering if anyone else experiences that, and what triggers it for you if you do.

SKP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are a handful of things that still get under
> my skin once in a while and can have me
> second-guessing my conclusions about the church.

> But those few little
> things still bother me sometimes. I wish I could
> think of an example.

I'd be interested to read it if you could come up with an example.

Part of it, I'm guessing, is that some lessons ("memes" maybe) burrow into the deep recesses of our mind and/or heart and stalk us from within, in my experience. Kind of like a programmed response. That technique is purposeful, I believe, used by founders, leaders, sellers, whomever.

As a JW (and likely a Mormon?) one of the main ones I encountered was the oft-repeated warning: "If you don't attend meetings regularly you will fall away".

Falling away, in JW speak, is the worst possible outcome in life.

And sure enough, guess what, once I quit going to meetings I did indeed "fall away". Except for me at least,the falling occurred first and then I left the organization. Not attending meetings came 3rd.

In my case, the "falling" was having to make a choice between my family and the WatchTower Society.

Easy choice. Goodbye WatchTower.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2022 06:27PM by Nightingale.

When my beautiful child looks me in the eyes longing me to be a part of their Mormon world my heart breaks.

I've second guessed my decision in all the moments that make up the pain ball that inhabits my mind filled with Mormon hopes and goodwill directed at me until they see it will never be.

Sometimes I wonder if it is true like I'm day dreaming. But their great and spacious plans to not tolerate outsiders loom even larger...

Yes, I understand what is being asked. Having been born and raised in the church whilst having been heavily indoctrinated, I have those moments myself.

You have these twinges of fear, guilt, and on occasion both.

I have had several experiences in my life that leaves me with an agnostic point of view, however, not enough to quaintify or prove anything. But it is enough to make me lean towards the notion of perhaps something there.

So when I see or experience something unexplainable, or see an event that can be perceived as miraculous, or see someone deeply moved (and sincere) in a religious moment. Then those twinges appear in the back of my mind and I find myself asking, "Have I screwed myself over?"

I then remind myself that a supreme being would be highly intelligent, organized, and logical. Therefore not subject to theatrics, infantile testing of loyalty, a jerk that would condemn you for asking questions, would not have thousands of different religions trying to define him\her\or it, and would not have angels with flaming swords ordering you to boink as many females as possible regardless of age and marital status.

I was an unbeliever for some years before I had the courage to hit the eject button. Being a BYU student had a lot to do with that. Once I left their hallowed hollowed halls, I was done.

I've been angry at the institution, and saddened by the damage it has done. Did I ever second-guess my decision to leave?

Not for a moment.

One thing that had me second guessing a lot and took the longest time to shed was the thought, "Am I too prideful? Am I trying to trust unto my own understanding? Are my expectations of God and the prophets too high?"

Of course researching the topics of controversy in the church(like the stuff in the CES letter) has helped me break free in the first burst out the doors. But there was still that clinging thought of "What if I'm wrong?"

A few things helped me.

1. Researching deeper into church history, particularly about JS and BY. The defense the church narrative gives, "those are accounts given by haters of the church and agents of Satan!" can only hold up so well against all the inconsistencies, the coincidences, and gross behavior (that the church half admits to in most cases, although they like to paint it in their own "faith promoting light"). Eventually, you cannot deny who the early prophets were as people, as human men with deceptive motives.

2. Keeping abreast of current day church news. It starts to make you queasy when you hear about the $100 billion rainy day fund, the horrible treatment of LGBT through doctrine, the very prevalent abuse allegations and coverups, and the ineffectual announcements and petty focus of the church as an organization (really? All that's going on in the world and you want to focus on what we allow people to call us? Is this a trans pronouns joke or are they just THAT out of touch?) and the very uncomfortable American centric view of the church(do you remember the big announcement in November 2020? It wasn't about the pandemic. It was #Givethanks to get everyone focused on an American consumerist holiday about eating meat and being privileged enough to share in gratitude with huge family gatherings, during a time when people are getting sick and dying worldwide). Even just going back a little ways, learning about Hoffman and the Salamander Letter and the priesthood ban finally lifted in just 1978. It starts to look like it's not inspired at all, or if it IS being run by some supernatural entity, he's either confused, evil, or both.

3. Research the BITE model for cults and watch exmo content going through each part of the acronym in regards to church practices. You'll start to realize very quickly into it that the way the church controls and manipulates people is not normal or healthy.

4. Research atheist arguments against god. It helped me a lot to start asking those deep philosophical questions. Like "why can't I know god is for sure real? Why am I forced to be here with half information? Is that moral or right to make me choose based on insufficient information? Who is worthy of worship?" It helped so much to figure out who god is supposed to be as a character, who I expected, and whether or not I was even allowed to set standards for who deserves worship and a relationship with me. One sided and blind with the threat of punishment is not enough for me. I don't accept the morals of a being outside myself. And I'm open enough on the atheism to say, "sure. Fine. God might be proven eventually or might reveal himself, but even if he was, I would not worship him. The god who was described and the god who made this world is not good enough for ME. I am allowed to set those standards. I am allowed to set my own standards of what is right and wrong and what my own destiny and purpose in life should be."

Very rarely now I'll have the thought, "What if I'm just being prideful? What if I'm being led astray?" And it is usually very quickly quieted when I simply think, "yeah but it's a repressive cult and I'm allowed to have standards for my holy organizations that doesn't include being manipulated, lied to, and abused." And it quiets those thoughts and makes it matter a whole lot less.

At the end of the day, after what Joseph Smith did, after what the church still does, the way it controls people, and the confusion surrounding god's intent and plan, even if it were true: so what? It's not a good organization and the being in charge of it is one that sows contention in families and people, confusion, and submission unto victimization. There's your what if. You get to the point of examination where you have to admit it's either all a lie or it's simply run by evil forces outside of this world. I prefer to think of it as all a lie because that's at least an evil we can tangibly prove exists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2022 07:29PM by blackcoatsdaughter.

Mormonism is a pizza . . . Christianity (as understood by JoJu) was the dough.  They are still tinkering with the toppings.  

They'll never create a perfect pizza, but as long as they have pizza lovers 'following' them, they'll keep working at it.  And why not?  Everyone loves pizza, right?



also, since a language warning was already posted, fũck the lame dũck, Russell Milhaus Nelson.

I don't think you can take a squat on a pile of dough and call it pizza.

What?!

There’s a pizza police force that prevents it?

I suppose there is a franchise for every taste. Try the stuffed crust, it's to die for.

I actually had one of those moments in April when I was told they were life flighting my son to SLC to Intermountain Medical Center for meningitis. I even heard the helicopter fly over. My boss lady said her brother, also my boss, could come to the hospital and give him a blessing. I considered it, but told her my aunt and uncle live close to there and I'd talk to them. (I didn't.) But I thought about it. And I also said out loud after I found this out that I would go back to church if my son lived, but the minute I said it, I knew there was no way I could ever go back.

I've been over and over and over everything so many times that I have to be hard pressed to ever consider what I had considered. No blessing. They never worked. I had a stupor of thought with each blessing after I found out my boyfriend is gay.

My daughter is also a member. I think she has given up on the rest of us. She'll just baptize us after we die and seal us again.

I also wish you could come up with something that still bothers you. Tell us when you remember. It took me 23 years to figure "gay" out completely, to finally let go of whether he should have stayed or not. We've been "married" 38 years as of September 1st. A couple for 11 years is all.

I can share one thing that still bothers me to this day. In my younger and more nieve days, I sent blocks of stock to the church. Not any stock, but real nice Dow Jones listing type stock. With twenty to thirty years of appreciation, I have no doubt it has grown into a tidy sum in the 100 Billion slush fund.

When the news came out about that 100 Billion fund, my blood boiled. About that time the bishop at the local ward refused to give my wife a TR, because I was not listed on his books as paying tithing, of which he threatened me with eternal concequences. He treated my wife poorly, and was a real jerk.

Then it also occured to me, that if I ever went to the church for assistance, they would ignore my generousity and contribution to that 100 Billion fund, and tell me I had to pay tithing first before they returned any of those gains.

I figure by the type of stock I gave them, I have more than paid above and beyond 10% of my lifetime wages, taking growth into consideration.

Everytime I see a topic on tithing, my blood pressure rises. This is one issue I think that will always hang in the back of my mind, because as far as I am concerned, the church stole from me, under the premese that they claimed that tithing was for the operation of facilities and well being of its members.

+1

Silence is Golden-

Whew, your comment hits home in all kinds of ways. Nowhere is it more clear that this is NOT a religious organization than in its sheer greed, its use of money, and its absolutely grudging, miserly, tight-fisted "help" of those who need assistance. Ebenezer Scrooge himself would blush. Tithing was never even supposed to be on income; it was supposed to be on INCREASE (as in net worth growth). But then "god" decided that wasn't enough. He wanted money from people below poverty level too! Elderly and on a fixed income? Fork it over. You earned $22k this year? "god" has to get $2200 on pain of eternal damnation. And BEFORE everything else. Sure, it means your kids won't eat for a couple weeks out of the month, and sure, it puts you one minor injury away from moving your family into a cardboard box, but "god" needs more pointlessly lavish hideouts for his cultic rituals, and has to pay his "prophets" six figures plus travel and expenses, and $100B isn't enough of a slush fund. And if after you pay up, you have to ask for help, you get shamed and accused of being "less righteous". It's next-level disgusting.

Silence is Golden Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... the bishop
> at the local ward refused to give my wife a TR,
> because I was not listed on his books as paying
> tithing

OK - dumb question: A bishop can refuse to give a TR to a woman because her husband doesn't pay tithing?

Short answer: yes. If he is the breadwinner, then "the family" doesn't pay tithing, so the family doesn't get perks like a TR.

Longer answer, the bish can refuse to give a TR for any reason or no reason, and the only recourse is to whine to the SP, which is all but guaranteed to be a waste of time, unless the SP has other compelling reasons to dislike the bishop.

You pretty well summed it all up in the aftermath. The Bishop was mad at me, because I told him contributions were my choice and not his. I reminded him that he was to ask the TR questions"only" to my wife. Otherwise he was not following the rules as provided by the handbook.

My wife works, but that did not matter to the bishop, he was going to extract his vengence on her since I was in the positon of his not being able to do anything to me.

As for your insight to the reaction of the SP (whom my wife did complain to), you are spot on.

Ironically if a mother works and pays tithing it is all good.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Silence is Golden Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ... the bishop
> > at the local ward refused to give my wife a TR,
> > because I was not listed on his books as paying
> > tithing
>
> OK - dumb question: A bishop can refuse to give a
> TR to a woman because her husband doesn't pay
> tithing?

Some of us were either encouraged or directly told that a divorce might better serve one's interest in the "eternal" perspective. I can no longer discuss with my Mom that this was being suggested to her if not encouraged by the bishopric when my father stopped attending church for several years. I can't unsee all the friendly brothers talking in the hallways placing their hands on my Mom's back and one had his hand in my Mom's nether regions.

I'd be furious, too. I found out after my husband left that my brother's MIL was getting her house payment paid while she was in jail for beating up her boyfriend while drunk. She didn't attend and hadn't since a small child. Then I found out one of my husband's boyfriends was getting his rent paid and food BY THE BISHOP who had been our singles ward bishop when my future husband came out to me. The mess that ensued was horrific. Husband abandoned us and left me to pay everything. He and his boyfriend wanted half custody of the kids and I knew I couldn't fight them court, so I didn't divorce him. I got his insurance though.

BUT when I went to the bishop for help, I did get help. I had been inactive for about 8 years at the time. He sent a letter to my husband calling him to repentance and then he paid four house payments and gave me food for about 2 years. I told him I didn't need it anymore, but he gave it to me anyway. I quit taking it when the new bishop was called.

I will be forever ?????? What's a good enough word for what they did to us by getting us married off. I was suicidal about him being damned is what they told me if he didn't CHANGE to straight. He married me because he was sure I was going to marry the guy I was dating at the time. I had to save him. It was my job.

My dad was livid when he found out what happened. He didn't know the half of it. P.S. The leaders gave us assignments to see if we could get him turned on by a woman. I was a good little mormon girl who saved herself 100%. They told me not to tell my parents. When my dad found out why I married him, he said THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY. After a marriage and raising a set of twins.

Believe me, there are so many things I hate the church for--like standing outside while my daughter got married 3 years ago. There was no one who was worthy to see my daughter married EXCEPT ME.

I hope that how the bishop treated your wife about her TR will get her out. Then maybe the tithing will be worth every penny.

"enough to keep me off the strait and narrow"

Just because the church is in no position to dictate morality doesn't mean there aren't rules. You can't go all "Fritz the Cat". It only means you are the master of your fate. They inhibited your journey by making you think your seeking was over. They told you they had all the answers. What a cruel joke, but the joke is on them. Leave the ass clowns behind.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just because the church is in no position to
> dictate morality doesn't mean there aren't rules.
> You can't go all "Fritz the Cat".

Right, it's the fact that there are no rules that means there are no rules.

I have no idea what "going all Fritz the Cat" is supposed to mean, but I assure you, if I want to go all Fritz the Cat, I will go all Fritz the Cat.

I didn't buck the dictation of my family's fictional god and his batshit church to submit to the rules of some rando on the internet.

There are eternal principles due to the existence of life both inside and outside of time. Unfortunately, the church has perverted those.

Fritz the Cat was the first "adult swim" type of animation, released in 1972. It's an interesting window into the 1970s and comedy that would be offensive today.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are eternal principles due to the existence
> of life both inside and outside of time.
> Unfortunately, the church has perverted those.

If you believe that for you, that's fine. Where you cross the line is telling others,

"You have to follow the rules I believe; you can't X because there are eternal principles due to the existence of life both inside and outside of time."

That's the same kind of crap the church does, and the same kind of nebulous double-talk they engage in to support it.

There are no rules. There are only needs, and ways to serve needs.

We can X. And if our needs drive us to it, we *will* X.

------------------------------------------------------
> Fritz the Cat was the first "adult swim" type of
> animation, released in 1972. It's an interesting
> window into the 1970s and comedy that would be
> offensive today.

Sounds interesting... we could do with more courageous "offensive" comedy these days and less cowardly ass-kissing pc bullshit poorly disguised as comedy.

Thanks.

Actions bring rewards or consequences. One person's despicable is another person's heroic. Cosmic or universal rules? I just don't see that. Men make rules to further their own agendas and they change them as they go. The universe meanwhile goes on spinning or whatever it does.

The most common definition I can find of this concept:

"A result is the final consequence of a sequence of actions or events expressed qualitatively or quantitatively. Possible results include advantage, disadvantage, gain, injury, loss, value and victory."

The way we were indoctrinated as BIC's means the old "formative years" thing is at play. What they cram into you during those years stays. You can cut the branches off but the roots are still there. And many say those years last into early twenties.

This is why there is malicious intent with the quote, "Teach a child the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it." That there is really sick.

The important thing is not whether you get those pings of the "what if's", but seeing them for what they are. Bag em tag em catalogue em and use a stun gun if you have to. But own them.

"What they cram into you during those years stays."

That's what they say... but who the hell are "they"? More people claiming to "know". Well I call BS. Sure, what they cram in during those years is stubborn, but ain't nothing in life permanent. If cutting off the branches doesn't work, I'll chop it down to a stump. And if chopping it down to a stump doesn't work, that's why they make stump grinders and ditch witches!

Okay, maybe too far with the metaphor... point is, it may take some time and effort (to unlearn this kind of thing you usually have to experience and learn and practice new things in its place), but it's my mind, and your mind, not the church's mind or our parents' mind. With a little perseverance, we can evict whatever previously internalized voices we want.

The past never goes away. Can't be evicted. At least I can't do it. My metaphor for what worked for me was more like pulling out everything from the back of the drawer, having a good look, dusting it off, and putting everything back in a whole new order. De-fanging rather than exorcising.

If you can get rid of it all together, then good for you. I wish I could.

The past is always going away. It is evicted with every passing moment. All that ever remains of the past is a memory, and even that is almost always more a product of the mind it inhabits than of the extinct reality it represents.

What we're talking about isn't the past; it's memories and neural pathways. Memories are very malleable. It's the neural pathways that can be incredibly stubborn, but they can be changed too.

It's like Santa Claus. I used to whole-heartedly believe he was real. I don't anymore. That belief is in the past. All that remains of it is a memory. The neural pathway of belief is gone. The memory may not go away, but I can remember it without second-guessing my belief that he doesn't exist. The neural pathway changed.

This is definitely deeper-rooted than that, but the same principle applies. When I find the neural pathway of belief creeping in on me, I can replace it with a new one by thinking thoughts I choose, like, "Mormonism is just another domination cult." Use the same tricks they used to instill the indoctrination... parroting and repetition. With persistence, the new pathway is worn in, and the old one becomes overgrown and eventually disappears.

I really like this view of the past and memory. Thank you for sharing it! Nothing is set in stone.

Also much appreciated! I’ve personally learned how deep-rooted these neural pathways truly are. Mormonism is one of several denominations that use guilt and shame as a means of control, particularly damaging to developing brains.

What I’m still personally grappling with is though the rhetoric and belief-based neural networks are definitely gone (likely never deeply established), I STILL allow guilt and shame to be the main motivator behind some decisions I make, to this day. Most humans are emotionally-driven - it’s a more primal part of the brain. Logic and critical thinking - located in the outer most part of the brain - kick in after emotion. I’m obviously over-simplifying. My point is, I’m curious to know if others have dealt with this and what has helped through your journey of shame/guilt and recovery ~ maybe I’ll start a thread! I’m new here lol

Welcome, Brights!